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Michigan House passes right-to-work law

Dickieboy said:
Here:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billengrossed/House/htm/2011-HEBH-4054.htm

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billengrossed/Senate/htm/2011-SEBS-0116.htm
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Thank you. Although that is a marked up version, I can see that it is balanced. It govern sets requirements for either a company to implement a lockout or a union to institute a strike (Section 9 wasn't in the house link to say what those requirements are). It also says that no one can be denied joining a union and no one can be forced to join a union. I would not have been comfortable if it were not balanced.
 
TaraAnne said:
My point exactly blame the Unions. Not the bosses that mis-managed the company and paid themselves a ton of money to run those compaines into the ground. The fact is this country needs more Unions. I find it really odd that in Japan it is 22 to1 ratio from Ceo pay to worker and in America it is 245 to 1. Yeah right to work seems to be working real well.


Anyways its good to see a Texan!
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Umm... Japan? "Lost decade"? Probably not a good idea to hold Japan up as the standard barer for how lower worker to CEO pay ratios generate a prosperous economy.
 
Dickieboy said:
Michigan GOP pushes right to work; Zorn against | MonroeNews.com

It is incredible this now. I'm not sure the state is ready for this...opinions?

ps. I'm betting Haymarket's head is about to explode about right now...
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Though I do support the ability to have unions, I also support keeping them voluntary and not manditory. Good for michigan to get rid of wasteful manditory union dues. Unions have a purpose to go after bad working conditions. Once those problems are done with then the union should also be done with. What is the point of a union when everything is going well aside from giving up part of your paycheck to people who don't do any work?
 
TaraAnne said:
This is flat out wrong! I live in a right to work state and yes it is true you will get more jobs. However, most will be low paying jobs period. One of the main reasons middle class income has not gone up in over 30 years is the fact that some people have been told the lie that Unions are the reason. No it is not! This country was built on Unions. Please look at Texas most minimum wage jobs created, poor schools, and bad healthcare. I know you all have seen our disaster Rick Perry. He and his minions are behind these problems. Michigan just fell into a sink hole right to work. More like right to give corporations the right to do whatever whenever they see fit.

Economists: Right-to-work states have lower-income residents, poor labor relations | Michigan Business | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
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Unions should not be a permanent fixture. they are there for crisis and when that is over they do not have any purpose. If I walk into a job and the pay is right for me, and the conditions are safe and acceptable I don't need a union. If you want to offer it to people as a voluntary thing then that is OK, but I don't want to have to pay a union so I can work. Get your own damned job, that is extortion if you ask me.
 
Dickieboy said:
How does RTW passage cause the ‘loss of collective bargaining’?
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Ahh, workers joining together to express grievances, working conditions, benefits and wages. That's called collective bargaining.

This has nothing to do with collective bargaining, unionization or RTW. IF your agreement was in writing as you state you had an EXCELLENT lawsuit unless there is other information regarding a legitimate reason you were not performing in compliance with said written agreement you failed to provide in you anecdote…
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I'm well aware that I had an possible grounds for a law suit. It wasn't necessary as I belonged to a union. The union resolved the issue. There is no other information.

Why do you insinuate that it was a performance issue on my part? Nice attitude you have there. The company is always right, yeah? I was performing in compliance with the written agreement, my employer was not honoring automatic step level increase based on military experience. The issue was not at all confusing or even a matter of contention other than the fact that the someone in HR did not input the appropriate code into my file. The company then chose to ignore the mistake and repeatedly ignored it. The collective power of the union had a hell of a lot more power than one employee who was getting ****ed over. It was such a simple issue to fix that it was fixed and a check for backpay was written and delivered across town in less than 8 hours, after the union made a phone call in my behalf.
 
TaraAnne said:
My point exactly blame the Unions. Not the bosses that mis-managed the company and paid themselves a ton of money to run those compaines into the ground. The fact is this country needs more Unions. I find it really odd that in Japan it is 22 to1 ratio from Ceo pay to worker and in America it is 245 to 1. Yeah right to work seems to be working real well.


Anyways its good to see a Texan!
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To a liberal it's always the CEO's same with Hostess liquidating, what a crock, it is the unions driving out businesses and killing them. And you wonder why the union membership has been declining for decades. It's the mis-managed unions at fault.
 
Born Free said:
To a liberal it's always the CEO's same with Hostess liquidating, what a crock, it is the unions driving out businesses and killing them. And you wonder why the union membership has been declining for decades. It's the mis-managed unions at fault.
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Wow really it was the employees. Okay riddle me this why just a couple of years ago did the employees of Hostess take massive benefit cuts and salary cuts. While the CEO and uppermangement did nothing? Who were the ones that are getting the golden parachutes. Not the twinky makers. The upper management of Hostess caused the compaines demise not the workers. I know Fox News wants people to believe that. However a majority of Americans dont.
 
TaraAnne said:
Wow really it was the employees. Okay riddle me this why just a couple of years ago did the employees of Hostess take massive benefit cuts and salary cuts. While the CEO and uppermangement did nothing? Who were the ones that are getting the golden parachutes. Not the twinky makers. The upper management of Hostess caused the compaines demise not the workers. I know Fox News wants people to believe that. However a majority of Americans dont.
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Lets see, Hostess liquidated because it was a profitable company. No it was competition in the market place and the higher cost of 18,000 workers was the reason it closed. As for any golden parachutes the owners are out of a business, don't know what a kind of a parachute that is, when you go out of business sounds like that parachutes had big holes in it.

Maybe you can tell me why unions have been losing membership for decades. Never mind I already know, bad ****ing management.
 
Grim17 said:
I didn't realize that there was any political party that was trying to control a females reproduction choices. Last time I checked, a woman still had the choice of whether or not to have sex, and if so, could easily obtain birth control pills. So tell me, who is trying to outlaw women from having sex, and/or trying to outlaw birth control pills, and could you please link me to the proposed legislation?

Unless you are referring to Republicans opposing the government giving out free birth control pills through Obamacare... If that's the case, then you have again shoveled more dishonest liberal talking points.




What specific rights are Republicans denying women?




What specific rights are Republicans denying the disabled?




What specific rights are Republicans denying American workers?
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Don't be obtuse. Then again, maybe you can't help it. Either way I'm not going to respond. If you don't know why, it won't matter.
 
Hicup said:
Well, and argument could certainly be made that a lot of the problems with our children, divorce rates, and an over saturation in the workforce has led to a continuation of lower wages, no one home to guide the children, and divorce rates over 50%. I'm not saying women shouldn't work at all, but someone needs to be home, whether the man or the woman for the kids, and both men and women from a single household certainly over saturates the workforce, which keeps wages lower, generally speaking.

Just a theory of mine. To complex with too many variables to prove, but my gut tells me a lot of the ills facing America over the last 40 years is due primarily to the breakdown of the family staple.


Tim-
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Tim,

I respect your opinion though I vehemently disagree. What you are suggesting is exactly what I am opposed to. You are suggesting social engineering as a solution. Social engineering is wrong. Eliminating jobs so that those who have jobs can own more is wrong. Keeping the little woman at home to decrease the divorce rate is wrong. I support equality.
 
TaraAnne said:
This is flat out wrong! I live in a right to work state and yes it is true you will get more jobs. However, most will be low paying jobs period. One of the main reasons middle class income has not gone up in over 30 years is the fact that some people have been told the lie that Unions are the reason. No it is not! This country was built on Unions. Please look at Texas most minimum wage jobs created, poor schools, and bad healthcare. I know you all have seen our disaster Rick Perry. He and his minions are behind these problems. Michigan just fell into a sink hole right to work. More like right to give corporations the right to do whatever whenever they see fit.

Economists: Right-to-work states have lower-income residents, poor labor relations | Michigan Business | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
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Let's see... Non-union jobs vs no jobs at all.

It's been my experience that something beats nothing every time.

Are there any Hostess Former Bakers who are making more now than when they had jobs?
 
I've never really understood why anyone would be against the idea of right to work laws. No one should be forced to join a union to get a job. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Of course if you choose not to join the union, you shouldn't get any of the benefits of being a union member, but people should have the right to make that choice on their own.
 
Risky Thicket said:
It's interesting, isn't it? From the same people who want to control women's bodies! If it weren't for unions women would all be at home, barefoot and pregnant. That, ironically, is where many wrong minded ultra-conservatives would like women to be.
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I never tire of listening to people who don't know any conservatives describe what they think Conservatives do and believe when they don't know and don't want to know any Conservatives.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Ahh, workers joining together to express grievances, working conditions, benefits and wages. That's called collective bargaining.
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Yes, I know what collective bargaining is. But unfortunately you didn’t answer the question. Would you like me to restate it?

I'm well aware that I had an possible grounds for a law suit. It wasn't necessary as I belonged to a union. The union resolved the issue. There is no other information.
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Fair enough…don’t misunderstand my position. I have no position pro/anti on private sector unions. I DO believe in freedom and ones right to organize. If a majority elects to organize good for them, I hope it works out. But I ALSO believe in folks right to NOT be in a union…this is what I understand is the essence of RTW. I know there are specifics that ‘cloud’ the arrangement.

Why do you insinuate that it was a performance issue on my part? Nice attitude you have there...
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It was not my intention to insinuate anything but merely to point out that over the MANY years of hearing stories I have come to learn there are commonly more sides to a story. The facts s you have detailed above bring more light into the situation than before thus I retreat to my previous position of lawsuit. No the company is not always right and we have various methods available to address these errors other than organizing. While I read you didn’t go that route it was available and certainly so if you were not a union member. Ultimately it appears your situation was borne of an administrative error which is commonly not corrected due to others evading of retribution. I’m glad it worked out for you and that your union experience has been beneficial.
 
If you are against the right to work you are against workers rights.
 
code1211 said:
I never tire of listening to people who don't know any conservatives describe what they think Conservatives do and believe when they don't know and don't want to know any Conservatives.
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You're pissing on the wrong tree, code. Apparently you are the kind of Conservative who needs to find a reason to be offended. Get a grip on yourself and try to unhissy fit for just a second. If you will notice I did not say ALL Conservatives. I didn't even say Conservatives. So unless you represent wrong minded ultra-conservatives you are not the dog in this fight.

I know and work with many conservatives. Most of them are good people who are normal mainstream folks. Some are extremely conservative socially and fiscally and while their positions don't align with even most conservatives, they are aware of that. They work, as most Americans, to have their views represented more in legislation. Then there is the cabal of ultra-right religionists, whom by the way, I referred to in an earlier post, which you apparently avoided in your haste to become immediately offended.

Risky quoting self said:
These people, this small cabal of ultra-right religionists, who are apparently hell-bent on social engineering an entire nation to conform with their twisted world view, who are intolerant and narrow minded, who are unwilling to recognize views and the wishes of the majority of citizens in this representative democracy, are doing all they possibly can to take the nation backwards.
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These mouthy group of malcontents seek to impose their limited world view on the rest of us. I don't like them for doing that. It's fine with me until they try to impose their twisted beliefs on the rest of us via legislation and social engineering. Santorum, Perry and Beck - as I mentioned in a previous post you chose to ignore or missed in your rush to be a victim - people of that ilk and Akin and Bachmann and the people who support them are the conservatives I'm talking about. The conservatives who give conservatism a bad name. These kinds of people, who are small in number, but conservatives none the less are the reason I left the GOP. Until most conservatives can remove these ultra-right crazies from the neck of the GOP, the conservative crazies will continue to suck the life out of conservatism until it is dead.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Don't be obtuse. Then again, maybe you can't help it. Either way I'm not going to respond. If you don't know why, it won't matter.
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I'm not being obtuse, I was just pointing out that none of that crap was true and was nothing more than a bunch of partisan nonsense.
 
Born Free said:
Lets see, Hostess liquidated because it was a profitable company. No it was competition in the market place and the higher cost of 18,000 workers was the reason it closed. As for any golden parachutes the owners are out of a business, don't know what a kind of a parachute that is, when you go out of business sounds like that parachutes had big holes in it.

Maybe you can tell me why unions have been losing membership for decades. Never mind I already know, bad ****ing management.
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Why Hostess Had To Die - Forbes

Choke on this article for awhile there are links to others that Hostess was "Bained" Otherwise back up your claim that Hostess was profitable?? Execs got 1.6 in payoffs after the bankruptcy. Please.

The reason Union support has gone down is simple one Right to Work. The second is that a fairly large amount for years have been told Unions were at fault and they are bad. Union breaking has been apart of American history going back to Rockerfeller and the Barons that ruled America years ago. We as workers gave up little by little our bargianing right by voting in a bunch of rejects I would not trust with a potatoe gun. Unions will come back after a few more companies are done like Hostess.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Some continue to be predictable partisan hacks, partisan hacks who have displayed time and time and time again that they are unable and unwilling to think for themselves.
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Exactly; see post #7. :lamo
 
Risky Thicket said:
It's interesting, isn't it? From the same people who want to control women's bodies! If it weren't for unions women would all be at home, barefoot and pregnant. That, ironically, is where many wrong minded ultra-conservatives would like women to be.
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I'm not concerned about a woman's body. I am concerned about that live human being many women opt to kill for convenience.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Tim,

I respect your opinion though I vehemently disagree. What you are suggesting is exactly what I am opposed to. You are suggesting social engineering as a solution. Social engineering is wrong. Eliminating jobs so that those who have jobs can own more is wrong. Keeping the little woman at home to decrease the divorce rate is wrong. I support equality.
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And I too respect anyone else reasonable opinion like yours. I just think even though the thought is unpalatable to many, someone needs to be home guiding our kids. I've been lucky enough (means I worked my ass off and sacroificed a lot of time with my kids during their formative years) to not to have to worry about money, and both my ex wife and my current wife have never had to work, and although not evidence incontrovertible, our kids are pretty healthy and happy. My divorce hit my two oldest kids pretty hard, and my two yuonger children of my second marriage were and continue to be hit in different ways by not being able to see thier two older brothers all the time, but all in all, I'm a pretty lucky guy.

Like I said, too complex to prove, way to many variables and subjective definitions of what constitutes happy and healthy, but ATM, we're in pretty good shape, and I feel that someone home all the time contributed to this in a big way.


Tim-
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1061225265 said:
Exactly; see post #7. :lamo
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WTF? I don't belong to any political party. Give me a issue and I'll give you my position. Search this site to hell and back and tell me that I am a partisan or even support on liberal or conservative positions. What you seem to be saying is that whatever position I take I am a partisan to the opposing side. No wonder you are an Auburn fan.
 
Hicup said:
And I too respect anyone else reasonable opinion like yours. I just think even though the thought is unpalatable to many, someone needs to be home guiding our kids. I've been lucky enough (means I worked my ass off and sacroificed a lot of time with my kids during their formative years) to not to have to worry about money, and both my ex wife and my current wife have never had to work, and although not evidence incontrovertible, our kids are pretty healthy and happy. My divorce hit my two oldest kids pretty hard, and my two yuonger children of my second marriage were and continue to be hit in different ways by not being able to see thier two older brothers all the time, but all in all, I'm a pretty lucky guy.

Like I said, too complex to prove, way to many variables and subjective definitions of what constitutes happy and healthy, but ATM, we're in pretty good shape, and I feel that someone home all the time contributed to this in a big way.


Tim-
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My first wife didn't have to work and didn't want to. I'll be the first to tell you my kids benefitted from that. My current (and final) wife loves to work. She'd be miserable if she couldn't work. We chose not to have children. Her choice. My kids from my first marriage and my ex like my wife more than they like me. I can understand my ex feeling that way. :wink:

I love my children, but I would have been horrible as a stay at home parent.

At any rate, the genie is out of the bottle, good or bad. I don't think it is going back in.
 
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