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Walmart workers demand better wages

Yes .... And Greece was wrong to do that, as was spain ... when you deregulate the financial industry that's what happens.



Choices and decisions are always made with the backdrop of the insitutional framework ... and you, as a worker, you'd have much more choice and much more market power in the workplace if the institutional framework with economic democracy.

But you're happy just with the ability to choose masters ... thats fine.

Greece and Spain aren't the only two countries doing poorly. France is headed in the same direction, just no one is talking about it until Greece gets its **** together.

I think you're missing the obvious.... by definition if you are "choosing" a master, he/she is not a master.
 
I'm using Socialism as a broad term to call what was advocated from Bakunin to lenin, from St. Simon to Social Democrats and so on .... What they ALL have in common is an idea that the economy should be run for the good of the public or controlled by the workers, i.e. economic democracy.



The whole thing of the State doesn't work, because you're ignoring the majority of socailists, which are left-libertarians, anarchists, cooperativists, syndicalists, market socialists and so on, who don't see a major role for the state ... Also the Marxian definition of socialism is very specific and used very sparingly, and doesn't really fit the broad definition.

The closest correct definitnios are the Oxford one and the Wikipedia one, although I would'nt use "ownership" since you want to be philisophically accurate, since what most socialists advocate isn't social "ownership" as the word is used in Capitalism, but rather socail control .... WHich is basically democracy, i.e. the American public doesn't "OWN" American ... but through the democratic process (at least in theory) they control the policy.

As far as the democratic party ... I don't know anyone who is calling for social control of the means of production and distribution or anything like that, the only thing I can think of are those who advocate a public bank, which is very few, and single payer, again very few ... and although those are "socailist" policies, one could say, they are ones that are accepted by most of the world, especially single payer.

As far as Obama ... He's not only not a socialist he's a neo-liberal ... he did everything to make sure the financial system stayed fully private and mostly unregulated, his healthcare was the opposite of socialist, it was corporatist, hell al the peopel he has in his economic team are the same people Bush had, plus the freaking CEO of GE ... Yeah ... because a socailsits would bring in executives from Goldman Sachs and General Electric into his top economic team.


Well, then I would have to conclude that you are NOT a socialist either, but rather a run of the mill anarchist with collectivist overtones. Neither of which are working, sustainable paths for a country of 350 million. First off it is like herding cats, Second, nothing would get done with every individual wanting a say in every decision that must be in a country as large as ours. Third, it stifles innovation, and retards wealth and investment, as well as grinds the wheels of what makes a country run to a trickle which would turn this country into a third world cesspool.

I must ask, seeing your answer, are you, or were you part of OWS? I only ask because you seem to say many of the things we heard from them.

Look, I understand that many in the 20 somethings want something different because they went to school, did what adults told them was the path to the American dream, so they got good grades, got out, and because of influences in collage, coupled with the slow collapse of generations of progressivism that have chipped away at what this country was, it not only is harder to achieve, but in some cases, like that of the collage grad that got an overpriced degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving, or Womens studies, now finds that no one wants, or is able to hire him/her and now owes that money, at 23 yrs old, and has to move back into mom's house for the foreseeable future because it was a lie for the school to hike that money for a degree in nothing.

Hell, I'd be pissed too. But that doesn't mean that the balance structure of how America works is wrong, or needs to be significantly changed. It just means you made a bad decision.

I have to stop here to get ready for work, but I'll think about it some more and get back to you.
 
NO.... insurance companies are protected by the government, not the free market.

Malpractice insurance is a result of individuals being greedy and lawyers abusing the lack of knowledge about the human body and pathophysiology among the general population (jury).

Getting rid of one requires less government regulation, getting rid of the other would just a result of completely restructuring our civil court system, which we definitely need to do.

EVERY company is protected by the government ... Capitalism exists because of the government. Also enough with the free market nonsense, there is no such thing, its a nonsensicle concept.

Malpractice insurance is part of the market as well.

Get rid of regulations on healthcare and guess what ... insurance companies still run the show because most people simply don't have that kind of money on cash.
 
Greece and Spain aren't the only two countries doing poorly. France is headed in the same direction, just no one is talking about it until Greece gets its **** together.

I think you're missing the obvious.... by definition if you are "choosing" a master, he/she is not a master.

We'll have to wait and see for France, but it seams like the "socialist" (anyone that looked into his past would see he's like a French obama, i.e. left in elections, but rules to the center-right), is following the same old austerity programs but just neo-liberal lite.

Then goverments are not masters since you can move out.
 
Well, then I would have to conclude that you are NOT a socialist either, but rather a run of the mill anarchist with collectivist overtones. Neither of which are working, sustainable paths for a country of 350 million. First off it is like herding cats, Second, nothing would get done with every individual wanting a say in every decision that must be in a country as large as ours. Third, it stifles innovation, and retards wealth and investment, as well as grinds the wheels of what makes a country run to a trickle which would turn this country into a third world cesspool.

I must ask, seeing your answer, are you, or were you part of OWS? I only ask because you seem to say many of the things we heard from them.

Look, I understand that many in the 20 somethings want something different because they went to school, did what adults told them was the path to the American dream, so they got good grades, got out, and because of influences in collage, coupled with the slow collapse of generations of progressivism that have chipped away at what this country was, it not only is harder to achieve, but in some cases, like that of the collage grad that got an overpriced degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving, or Womens studies, now finds that no one wants, or is able to hire him/her and now owes that money, at 23 yrs old, and has to move back into mom's house for the foreseeable future because it was a lie for the school to hike that money for a degree in nothing.

Hell, I'd be pissed too. But that doesn't mean that the balance structure of how America works is wrong, or needs to be significantly changed. It just means you made a bad decision.

I have to stop here to get ready for work, but I'll think about it some more and get back to you.

Whatever you want to call me, most Socialists follow basically my line of thinking.

Also what you're talking about is nonsense, and the same arguments against political democracy ... people vote in WHAT EFFECTS THEM, so not everyone has to voet for every single thing, and there are plenty of concrete policies that socialize the economy ... co-determination, cooperatives, public industry, public services, and so on. Also it doesn't stifle innovation ... most innnovation ALREADY comes from the not for profit sector and the public sector, nor does it retart wealth and investment, it just changes the source and incentive for investment, also it attaches wealth to actual social benefit.

As far as grinding the wheels tell that to the social-democratic Northern Europe, or the Latin American countries that are bringing people out of poverty with social-democratic policies.

OWS isn't an organization btw, but I support and supported them.

Also the bull**** you're writing about college students getting a degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving or Womens studies ... Did ALL the young people start taking those classes after 2007? Did everyone happen to take dumb degrees just at the same tiem (by coincidence) when capitalism fell into crisis???? Or MAYBE .... Its systemic issues, and not just that people have become dumber after the recession ...

This is what cracks me up about Capitalist apologists ... CEOs pay go up 300%, corporate profit sky rockets, 15% poverty poverty grows unemployment grows the middle class shrinks .... and they all coincide with neo-liberal reforms ... yet ... the capitalist apologists will put ALL OF IT to individual merits ... i.e. Executives suddenly became smarter and better, and everyone else got dumb and lazy ... Its such a rediculous point of view.

Its akin to the Soviet Union hacks arguing that the problems in the USSR were not systemic, no, it was because the people had a petty-bourgouis attitude, or they had gotten lazy ... NO the USSR failed because of the system and Capitalism is failing BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM.
 
Yeah, but she should stand by her principles.
And that would be to demand what she wants not what she deserves. BH Obama's primary campaign theme was that wanting is the same a deserving and he won the hearts and votes of those who don't know the difference.

Its such a rediculous point of view.
So how long do you thing that the dam was broken before the lake rushed down the valley??

President Bush ran for president to be an education president because we all saw the total collapse of our education system come under the progressive ideas that drive the teachers' unions. But 9/11 put him on a war footing and education is still suffering. You want to talk about CEOs and forget that teachers make more pay every year while our kids fail at higher and higher rates.
 
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When educators start doing their darn jobs, instead of indoctrinating our youth to churn out future socialists, then I'll support them more.

How about this Joe, you support this?:

J, no one supports that, nor is it anyone teaching anyone anything. Unions are not in the classroom teaching. Also, just because you can find stupid doesn't make it the norm. Why some don't know this escapes me. It's a flawed argument on your part.

The overwhelming majority of educators do their damn job. People feeding their heads with misinformation and from mindless partisan and ideological sources rarely know what reality is. Ironically, those who read and buy into these sources are indoctrinated by idiocy and don't even realize it.
 
Well.... how can they make health care costlier, and make it more affordable at the same time? :roll:

Again, you limited yourself to HMOs. I still don't know why. We know, UHC systems pay less. Have better access.
 
Again, you limited yourself to HMOs. I still don't know why. We know, UHC systems pay less. Have better access.

You were the one who was saying that we wouldn't be able to afford healthcare without insurance?

But either way, we spend more on public health insurance per person than any other country as well.
 
We'll have to wait and see for France, but it seams like the "socialist" (anyone that looked into his past would see he's like a French obama, i.e. left in elections, but rules to the center-right), is following the same old austerity programs but just neo-liberal lite.

Then goverments are not masters since you can move out.

They have to go through austerity because their social programs spent all their money..... :doh

And you chose to move out of the U.S.
 
Whatever you want to call me, most Socialists follow basically my line of thinking.

Also what you're talking about is nonsense, and the same arguments against political democracy ... people vote in WHAT EFFECTS THEM, so not everyone has to voet for every single thing, and there are plenty of concrete policies that socialize the economy ... co-determination, cooperatives, public industry, public services, and so on. Also it doesn't stifle innovation ... most innnovation ALREADY comes from the not for profit sector and the public sector, nor does it retart wealth and investment, it just changes the source and incentive for investment, also it attaches wealth to actual social benefit.

So you would put the number and quality of inventions of European Union in the last 80 years next to those of the United States?
As far as grinding the wheels tell that to the social-democratic Northern Europe, or the Latin American countries that are bringing people out of poverty with social-democratic policies.

OWS isn't an organization btw, but I support and supported them.
Asia is doing it better, and more sustain-ably. Venezuela will be right back where they started when their oil exports run out.
Also the bull**** you're writing about college students getting a degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving or Womens studies ... Did ALL the young people start taking those classes after 2007? Did everyone happen to take dumb degrees just at the same tiem (by coincidence) when capitalism fell into crisis???? Or MAYBE .... Its systemic issues, and not just that people have become dumber after the recession ...
This was a problem long before 2007. It would've been a problem without the recession. The recession just made it worse because recent college grads were usually the first ones to be fired.

You can see a steady inverse relationship between the rising cost of college, and the falling value of a general college degree over the last 30 years. We need to seriously "ReformCollege." Too many of the general introductory classes would be better done as a low cost online certification, rather than an actual degree. That would fulfill the basic requirement of allowing college to educate people and introduce themselves to different things in the world; meanwhile keeping the current, more expensive, college structure for smaller class sizes, and more intense learning. There is absolutely no reason why I should be required to sign up for an 500 person introductory course, and pay $750 to fill out three scantron tests.

As far as liberal arts degrees, my personal opinion is that its good to take a few select liberal arts courses sporadically to cultural myself and force myself to think and see things I otherwise wouldn't have. But I'm still getting a degree to get a job, if we are going to sell college as a vessel for class mobility, and it is going to be priced as such, then the degree needs to get you a job and it needs to pay itself off.
This is what cracks me up about Capitalist apologists ... CEOs pay go up 300%, corporate profit sky rockets, 15% poverty poverty grows unemployment grows the middle class shrinks .... and they all coincide with neo-liberal reforms ... yet ... the capitalist apologists will put ALL OF IT to individual merits ... i.e. Executives suddenly became smarter and better, and everyone else got dumb and lazy ... Its such a rediculous point of view.

That's why capitalism is doubling the size of the global middle class by 2030.... right?

Its akin to the Soviet Union hacks arguing that the problems in the USSR were not systemic, no, it was because the people had a petty-bourgouis attitude, or they had gotten lazy ... NO the USSR failed because of the system and Capitalism is failing BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM.
Captialism isn't failing. The United States economy is still weak, but we are not on the verge of collapse like the European Union is. You claim all of these wonderful social programs that Europe has, yet fail to state that many countries in Europe are moving in the opposite direction. Sweden is moving towards more capitalism. Germany made cuts to its social programs in the early 2000's, and is more of a Keynesian Capitalist economy rather than a socialist one. Greece didn't, and they are imploding. France won't, and they are expected to be the next Greece.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." -- Winston Churchill
 
You were the one who was saying that we wouldn't be able to afford healthcare without insurance?

But either way, we spend more on public health insurance per person than any other country as well.


Which has nothing to do with HMOs. And you're right, a single payer system would be cheaper. Which is what I'm saying. Remove or have neither insurance and UHC, and people will not afford medical care. That is also true.
 
Which has nothing to do with HMOs. And you're right, a single payer system would be cheaper. Which is what I'm saying. Remove or have neither insurance and UHC, and people will not afford medical care. That is also true.

Some primary care doctors have been able to run a no health insurance model for around $50-65 per month for a patent to have unlimited visits.

I see don't see a reason why most non-urgent care can't run off that model. And even so, that model has been shown to reduce the likelihood of being admitted into the ER.

Most healthcare consumption doesn't need to be insured because its just a normal purchase of (essential) consumption, the same as going to the supermarket. It's like saying, let me pay an insurance company a premium to cover a part of my weekly grocery bill. What are you insuring? In case I decide to buy an extra apple? Or I go twice in a week instead of my usual once? Primary healthcare consumption is about as routine as it gets, it doesn't fit an insurance model.
Furthermore, the insurance model just hinders market forces from actually dictating healthcare consumption and pricing. It's how they gauge prices way up to line their own pockets.

Now, single payer system? Yes, better. But, I still think an ACTUAL market based healthcare system without the current insurance model for consumption based healthcare would be better. Then, perhaps we could figure out what to do about the emergency based healthcare part of the system.
 
Whatever you want to call me, most Socialists follow basically my line of thinking.

:lamo Really? You are so full of yourself that you actually believe that "most" anyone follows your line of thinking?

that's a good one. :lol:

Also what you're talking about is nonsense, and the same arguments against political democracy

Maybe that is because in your attempt to twist words, you actually misname what it is you actually are. I believe it is an anarcho-communist.

...people vote in WHAT EFFECTS THEM, so not everyone has to voet for every single thing, and there are plenty of concrete policies that socialize the economy

How magnanimous of you. Look, people like their representative republic just fine. What makes you think that the country wants to scrap that?

co-determination, cooperatives, public industry, public services, and so on. Also it doesn't stifle innovation ... most innnovation ALREADY comes from the not for profit sector and the public sector, nor does it retart wealth and investment, it just changes the source and incentive for investment, also it attaches wealth to actual social benefit.

With your views expressed so far, where is the wealth going to come from?

As far as grinding the wheels tell that to the social-democratic Northern Europe, or the Latin American countries that are bringing people out of poverty with social-democratic policies.

Name a couple you think the US could model after and make work....

OWS isn't an organization btw, but I support and supported them.

Oh, I *up twinkles* that....:roll::doh What a joke.

Also the bull**** you're writing about college students getting a degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving or Womens studies ... Did ALL the young people start taking those classes after 2007? Did everyone happen to take dumb degrees just at the same tiem (by coincidence) when capitalism fell into crisis???? Or MAYBE .... Its systemic issues, and not just that people have become dumber after the recession ...

Well, I'll give it to ya, it is systematic. But since the entire ed system is run, and organized by progressive dolts I'll stick with my assessment thanks.

This is what cracks me up about Capitalist apologists ... CEOs pay go up 300%, corporate profit sky rockets, 15% poverty poverty grows unemployment grows the middle class shrinks .... and they all coincide with neo-liberal reforms ... yet ... the capitalist apologists will put ALL OF IT to individual merits ... i.e. Executives suddenly became smarter and better, and everyone else got dumb and lazy ... Its such a rediculous point of view.

When you actually understand how business works, get back to me.

Its akin to the Soviet Union hacks arguing that the problems in the USSR were not systemic, no, it was because the people had a petty-bourgouis attitude, or they had gotten lazy ... NO the USSR failed because of the system and Capitalism is failing BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM.

Am I reading this right? You think the USSR was too capitalist? :lamo
 
Which has nothing to do with HMOs. And you're right, a single payer system would be cheaper. Which is what I'm saying. Remove or have neither insurance and UHC, and people will not afford medical care. That is also true.

How much do you figure out of my salary it would cost me to have this pipe dream of yours?
 
Which has nothing to do with HMOs. And you're right, a single payer system would be cheaper. Which is what I'm saying. Remove or have neither insurance and UHC, and people will not afford medical care. That is also true.

This goes contrary to basic economics.

Less business = lower prices.

In other words, we will not suddenly have no healthcare, sans insurance. There will be a period in which healthcare will cost too much, but it won't be longer than a month. What do people do when there is a product that costs too much to buy? Without credit, simply put, they don't buy it. What happens to a product that isn't purchased?

Long story short, healthcare will reduce in cost, in order to insure it survives. A doctor didn't go to all that schooling to lose their job, and end up working at checkout in wallmart. They will lower the prices of their services, until more people CAN afford it. Everything else will follow suit. The prices of medical supplies will drop, in order to insure the doctors that order it continue to do so.


I means, it's that, or, you must believe that a multi billion dollar a year INDUSTRY will simply vanish.

Which one sounds more preposterous to you?
 
Some primary care doctors have been able to run a no health insurance model for around $50-65 per month for a patent to have unlimited visits.

I see don't see a reason why most non-urgent care can't run off that model. And even so, that model has been shown to reduce the likelihood of being admitted into the ER.

Most healthcare consumption doesn't need to be insured because its just a normal purchase of (essential) consumption, the same as going to the supermarket. It's like saying, let me pay an insurance company a premium to cover a part of my weekly grocery bill. What are you insuring? In case I decide to buy an extra apple? Or I go twice in a week instead of my usual once? Primary healthcare consumption is about as routine as it gets, it doesn't fit an insurance model.
Furthermore, the insurance model just hinders market forces from actually dictating healthcare consumption and pricing. It's how they gauge prices way up to line their own pockets.

Now, single payer system? Yes, better. But, I still think an ACTUAL market based healthcare system without the current insurance model for consumption based healthcare would be better. Then, perhaps we could figure out what to do about the emergency based healthcare part of the system.

They have been successful largely with people who can pay. And that is doctor visits, which would not include others healthcare related services. Right now I pay $206 a month family. When it was a family of four, sounds like you'd have me paying that much just for office visits.

Now, look at pharmaceuticals. We here drug companies can't handle paying what Canada pays for drugs. What do you think will happen absent insurance? Will that $200 a month med now be $50 a month? $25? $10?

Again, medicine is not going to significantly cheaper. You'll just have less access.
 
This goes contrary to basic economics.

Less business = lower prices.

In other words, we will not suddenly have no healthcare, sans insurance. There will be a period in which healthcare will cost too much, but it won't be longer than a month. What do people do when there is a product that costs too much to buy? Without credit, simply put, they don't buy it. What happens to a product that isn't purchased?

Long story short, healthcare will reduce in cost, in order to insure it survives. A doctor didn't go to all that schooling to lose their job, and end up working at checkout in wallmart. They will lower the prices of their services, until more people CAN afford it. Everything else will follow suit. The prices of medical supplies will drop, in order to insure the doctors that order it continue to do so.


I means, it's that, or, you must believe that a multi billion dollar a year INDUSTRY will simply vanish.

Which one sounds more preposterous to you?

We actually have single payer systems working around the world. They pay less and have better access. And, no, I don't believe the industry will vanish. There will be much less paper worker, less needless procedures (only the wealthy will able throw their money down the drain), and we will get more bang for the buck.
 
Far less than your insurance premium.


Good grief Joe, why is it that having you answer a question with something other than a one line non answer is like trying to get a kid eat their veggies?

Tell me why.....
 
Good grief Joe, why is it that having you answer a question with something other than a one line non answer is like trying to get a kid eat their veggies?

Tell me why.....

Ask a better question. You asked how much, and told you. An exact number isn't possible, but it would be far less.
 
We actually have single payer systems working around the world. They pay less and have better access. And, no, I don't believe the industry will vanish. There will be much less paper worker, less needless procedures (only the wealthy will able throw their money down the drain), and we will get more bang for the buck.


Problem 1: It inevitably must ration care.

A single-payer system is a “free-for-all system,” where costs are driven up. Patients over-consume health services because they don’t have to pay for them, and, thus, providers must oversupply those services. The only way a government can deal with overconsumption and oversupply is to ration those services through waiting lists.

Canada’s health care system, for example, illustrates this very point: everyone in Canada’s public system must wait for practically any procedure or diagnostic test or specialist consultation. Moreover, in the long term, access to care will decrease more substantially because the prospect of lower compensation (see below) and lower lifetime earnings reduces the incentive for talented people to choose careers in health care.

Problem 2: It would not save money.

When has our government ever saved money? Social Security is essentially bankrupt. Medicare will soon be bankrupt. So will Medicaid. These programs don’t save money and, instead, lose a lot of it because of the amount of fraud and, more importantly, the overuse they incentivize. Overuse is the real cause of rising health care costs.

After all, when something is free and you feel like you need it, would you ever stop asking for it? Moreover, as long as doctors are paid for providing you with that free service, why would they stop providing it? The same scenario would exist with a single-payer health care system. Overuse of services (again, because they are free) would limit any potential savings and eventually bankrupt the system.

Moreover, any analysis of costs savings by a government-run system is always misleading. Comparisons between private sector costs and the costs of a single-payer system usually exclude many government administrative expenses, such as the costs of collecting the taxes needed to fund the system and the salaries of politicians and their staff members who set health care policy. By contrast, the salary costs of executives and boards of directors who set insurance companies’ policies are included in private sector costs. A government is somewhat immune to the free-market bottom lines that private sector companies deal with annually. Government doesn’t have to account for every penny, and, thus, a lot is lost through the cracks.

Problem 3: Compensation for physicians and health care providers would decrease.

A single-payer system would substantially lower payments to physicians and health care providers compared to our current system. For those of you who embrace class warfare and think this is a good idea, consider this: human beings are only so charitable. Many will draw a line somewhere. An individual spends almost an entire decade (and hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans) studying to become a doctor, and that doesn’t even include college. These people expect to be (and should be) compensated adequately for their effort and expertise. Whatever you think of what they should be paid, if they don’t feel they are paid enough, they will find something else to do. If doctors leave a profession that no longer pays well, the system will experience a reduction in the supply of active physicians.

That reduction, in turn, will impair access to health care and the quality of health care for everyone.

Problem 4: The quality of care would decrease.

Lower compensation for doctors will limit their ability to invest in advanced medical equipment and new technology, as well as the time they need to stay up to date with medical developments. These limitations, too, will impact the quality of health care for everyone.

Problem 5: It would take medical decisions away from doctors and patients.

A single-payer system will insert the government into private decision-making. Many provisions within the health care bill will slowly chip away an individual’s ability to make choices about everything from his or her private health insurance to actual decisions about medical care.

Now, who wants Uncle Sam telling you what insurance you should have or what treatment you should receive? These are private decisions made by an individual and, often, with the private advice of a physician. The government has no role or expertise in this area and should stay out.

Problem 6: It would hamper medical research.

A single-payer system would also reduce the rate of medical progress. Recall (from above) that, because doctors will be compensated less, fewer talented people will pursue careers in medicine. Fewer people receiving medical training decreases the supply of talented medical researchers and, thus, impairs medical research and progress.

Problem 7: The countries that have had single-payer systems for decades are slowly moving towards more private systems.

Canada, the United Kingdom, and even Sweden are slowly moving away from public systems of health care and allowing the private sector to take over. In each of these countries, particularly Canada, their single-payer systems have been disasters. Five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada. Americans have greater access to preventive screening tests and have higher treatment rates for chronic illnesses. Only half of emergency room patients are treated in a timely manner. The physician shortage is so severe that some towns hold lotteries, where the winners gain access to a local doctor.

The most vivid indictment of Canada’s system might be the fact that Canada's provincial governments rely on American medicine. Between 2006 and 2008, Ontario sent more than 160 patients to New York and Michigan for emergency neurosurgery. If Canada's single-payer system is preferable to our own, why would they send us their patients? (Hint: Because our system is better.)

These problems are likely only the beginning of what would happen to our health care if the Democrats have their way. I believe a majority of the country already understands the dangers of this health care bill. Details, however, are very important, and opponents of this bill must emphasize (to their Congressmen and fellow voters) the fatal drawbacks inherent in a single-payer system.


Republicans & Conservatives: Single-Payer Health Care Does Not Work
 
Ask a better question. You asked how much, and told you. An exact number isn't possible, but it would be far less.


So you don't know, but yet you speak in declarative manner as though you do. You know what that is called right? Talking out of your......
 
1. Insurance companies already ration. And being able to pay for something is in itself a form of rationing. In no system does everyone get everything they want. Rationing is a way republicans try to scare and avoid discussing the issue.

2. Those systems pay less. How can you pay less and not save? But say we don't save. Wouldn't getting better access for the same price be better?

3. There is no logical reason that there would be decrease in physician salaries. True, not scamming the system by ordering unnecessary procedures might decrease income a little, but I don't think we should be too concerned with that. The point is, no one will be working for the government, and plenty of wealthy people will till be able spend recklessly.

4. Nor is there any logical reason for quality to decrease. We might even do better, as over treatment also is poor care.

5. No, medical decisions still resides with doctors (you do realize insurance companies come between patient and doctor). Doctors will not work for the government.

6. Much of research is already done by the government. There is no reason it would hinder research. We're talking single payer, two tiered, and not a system where anyone works for the government.

7. Not sure I buy this. But it requires more than a scare piece by republicans
 
So you don't know, but yet you speak in declarative manner as though you do. You know what that is called right? Talking out of your......

Are you having comprehension issues?
 
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