• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Walmart workers demand better wages

DVSentinel said:
Psst, check your Lean. Socialist. Many of us know that Marx's socialist theories and methods called for Government theft as a means of bring about change from capitalism. Of course, as a socialist, you may not view the government seizing the assets and properties of those who fight against socialism as theft. So either you are not a real socialist (an adherent of Marx) and are really a sudo-socialist, or you are ignorant of what Marx wrote or you support government theft of private properties/monies.

No, capitalism is not failing. The sudo-socialistic economic policy of regulated capitalism is failing. True, unfettered capitalism does not exist in the US and hasn't for a very longtime now, if it ever existed. Our current economic failings can all be tracked back to the introduction of greater and greater governmental controls and the introduction of "social" policy in the government.

No one, at least that I have read, ever said that walmart workers, as individuals would not be better off, at least for a time. You are only looking at the effects upon a portion of the 1.4 million walmart employees. You are not taking into account what it would do the the far greater number of walmart shoppers. You seem to think that it would only effect walmart workers and walmart management. It affects far more people than that. The savings to customers has been what has driven walmart to the place it now is. To meet the pay levels that some workers demand and the whole "living wage" idea, it would have to greatly increase it's pricing. The people who can only afford walmart pricing will no longer be able to afford much of anything. People who can afford walmart prices on non essential products may no longer be able to afford them, decreasing consumer sales in an already depressed and fragile economy. This would not just affect walmart either, it will affect everyone in the chain that gets the products manufactured and delivered to the individual stores. Walmart is big enough that it may have a significant effect upon the whole economy.

As a socialist, you approach the matter from the view point that all people have a minimum value and that each persons value is equal. This lack of a realistic concept of value is at the core of the failures and the falsehood of the promised paradise preached by socialist. However, to a company, any company, an individuals value to that company is directly related to what that individual contributes to the company. A person value to society is only what that individual gives to society and since we do not have nor can we ever have equal input to a society, every person in the society cannot have equal value to the society. There are many in our society that only take from it and never give back, or give back only a very small amount compared to what they take. Pure logic would dictate ridding society of those who have a negative value, however, because they are a person, we do not follow pure logic but instead try to act humanly towards them.

Even those who do not go as far as a socialist but still feel that a worker should have a minimum value, though not equal are following down the path towards socialism, thus they are socialistic, even if they don't admit it. If they were to achieve their goal of a "living wage" with benefits for all, they would not stop there but would immediately start working to eliminating what they see as inequities in the system. Unions, especially collective bargaining, are following down this path. As we have seen, this has caused total failure in a case like Hostess and massive outsourcing in other businesses. It has also caused some to start calling for greater and greater government actions to stop these failures in the economy, however, the government cannot stop the effects of this causal factor without becoming socialist. You may desire this affect, but some of us can use logic and reason and see that this failure of value in socialism will only lead to failure of a socialist systems. Socialism depends on everyone acting idealistically and we all know that greed influences far more people than any idealistic model.
Click to expand...

Son of a bitch .... First of all MARXISM IS POSTIVE ECONOMICS ... get that through you're head ... its an analysis of Capitalism. Socialism was before marx and after marx, socialism is no an adherant of marx tat is what a marxist is.

Capitalism IS failing. True unfettered capitalism never existed and can never exist, the closer you get to it the more you end up at the great depression of much of the third world. post 70s' much of the west moved toward more unfettered capitalism and the result is in.

Our current economic failings are traced back to reagenomics ... i.e. the dismanteling of the new deal and great society politics and institution of neo-liberalism ... this is fact.

You could increase every workers wage 30%, not change prices and not change exective pay and Walmart would still be profitable, and that isn't taking into accoutn increased aggrigate demand ... so claiming that infaltion would undo the positive effects is plainly false, and claiming that rising wages are undone by inflation has been disproven OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, and if you want em to show why AGAIN, I'll do it.

As a socialist I don't argue that all peoples value is equal ... Thats nonsense, and thus a strawman. My arguemnt is that labor is value ... not ownership of capital ... of coarse a doctor is more valuble than a secretary.

Socialism is economic democracy ... So enough of the strawmen. Unions are an example of a democratizing force in the economy.

As far as Hostess that's already been answered, it was management, not unions that ruined the company, kept giving themselves raises and bonuses while running the company into the ground and cutting workers benfits.

Outsourcing happened after Union decline.

The reast of you're argumetns are just strawmen. If you don't want the state the stop failures in capitalism, then watch capitalism collapse ... Capitlaism is inherently unstable and naturally grows until it bursts, I don't want governmetn action to stop that, I want to change the whole institutional framework to make it more democratic.

No no more strawmen.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. And they grew to much larger runs and are still doing fine ... BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM THEY HAVE.

2. Unions were losing ground in the late 70s. The reason German unions are different is because of the economic system of co-determination, not some genetic difference between germans and americans.

3. Germany has policies that put a lot of restricutions on companies ... I don't know about Japan, but for comapnies to move or shift they have to go through many political loopholes, basically they have more public accountability. Putting that all to simple cultural or moral differences is rediculous ... BOTH countries firms want to make a profit and need to focus on short term profits ... the difference is the institutional framework.

4. Thats subjective ... and there is no way to show it at all, also marketing is the result of management.

5. And why do US companies outsource and German companies do not? Do German Companies like paying more for labor? No ... its the difference in the institutions.

Also its not JUST germany, its other social democratic countries too, or is it just a coincidence that social democracies have good morals and culture and neo-liberal ones do not?
Click to expand...

1. They make more profit per item because their product price point is higher. They still do not produce the volume of US companies. Go look it up.

2. The unions are a different animal. The disclosure laws in both the US and Germany are different as well as the arbitration laws. A different environment has created a different union. Codetermination was made law post WW2 to avoid the violent outbreaks that were occurring in the US in establishing unions.

3. Nonsense. Shorter supply chains have a lot to do with quality control. Redundancy prevents work stoppages, but if you dont have to worry about that why bother? Its not institutional, its business based.

4. Marketing frequently is the basis for everything that follows. Listening to customer feedback and actively seeking it are part of the marketing process, if you want to make a better product, you engage in that part of the process so you can know what customers want done differently. US markets did not do this for a long time, they were engaged in a push market rather than pull market.

5. Its not the institutions. Companies dont do things for altruistic reasons. The quality control in German companies is tighter and the German product model is based in quality. EVERY product. Not just cars.

LOL that statement is idiotic. Easiest refute: The Yugo. I rest my case.

Explaining business concepts to you is like explaining fur to a fish. You have some pie in the sky socio liberal response to it that doesnt bear any resemblence to reality and its getting tiresome whack a moling your misguided concepts.
 
Mustachio said:
I chose my job according to what I feel good about doing.

snip

I support local businesses, I go to farmer's markets and "ma and pa" stores, and I have no problem paying a little more for a responsible business.

snip


I don't make much money and I can do it. Other people can, too.
Click to expand...


Well, goody for you....What do you want? a prize? My question to you, as it is to all libs when it gets to this point is this, Who the heck do you think you are to tell others where they should work, how they should live, or where they should shop? The arrogance of liberals to think that only they have a lock on the way everyone should live is stunning. It works for you great. I'll make my own decisions in life thank you.
 
RGacky3 said:
Son of a bitch .... First of all MARXISM IS POSTIVE ECONOMICS ... get that through you're head ... its an analysis of Capitalism. Socialism was before marx and after marx, socialism is no an adherant of marx tat is what a marxist is.

Capitalism IS failing. True unfettered capitalism never existed and can never exist, the closer you get to it the more you end up at the great depression of much of the third world. post 70s' much of the west moved toward more unfettered capitalism and the result is in.

Our current economic failings are traced back to reagenomics ... i.e. the dismanteling of the new deal and great society politics and institution of neo-liberalism ... this is fact.

You could increase every workers wage 30%, not change prices and not change exective pay and Walmart would still be profitable, and that isn't taking into accoutn increased aggrigate demand ... so claiming that infaltion would undo the positive effects is plainly false, and claiming that rising wages are undone by inflation has been disproven OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, and if you want em to show why AGAIN, I'll do it.

As a socialist I don't argue that all peoples value is equal ... Thats nonsense, and thus a strawman. My arguemnt is that labor is value ... not ownership of capital ... of coarse a doctor is more valuble than a secretary.

Socialism is economic democracy ... So enough of the strawmen. Unions are an example of a democratizing force in the economy.

As far as Hostess that's already been answered, it was management, not unions that ruined the company, kept giving themselves raises and bonuses while running the company into the ground and cutting workers benfits.

Outsourcing happened after Union decline.

The reast of you're argumetns are just strawmen. If you don't want the state the stop failures in capitalism, then watch capitalism collapse ... Capitlaism is inherently unstable and naturally grows until it bursts, I don't want governmetn action to stop that, I want to change the whole institutional framework to make it more democratic.

No no more strawmen.
Click to expand...


If socialism is so great then two questions....

1. Why is it that no socialist country in the world has ever achieved the wealth, prosperity, and living standard of the United States? Why does it never succeed?

2. Why does it have to be enforced at the point of a gun?

You may want, or dream to be a slave to the state and toil away at a job to support someone who doesn't, but I don't. I prefer freedom.
 
j-mac said:
If socialism is so great then two questions....

1. Why is it that no socialist country in the world has ever achieved the wealth, prosperity, and living standard of the United States? Why does it never succeed?

2. Why does it have to be enforced at the point of a gun?

You may want, or dream to be a slave to the state and toil away at a job to support someone who doesn't, but I don't. I prefer freedom.
Click to expand...

1 and 2 ... No one is talking about Leninism ... Nor is anyone talking about state socialism (its actually state capitalism).
 
OpportunityCost said:
1. They make more profit per item because their product price point is higher. They still do not produce the volume of US companies. Go look it up.

2. The unions are a different animal. The disclosure laws in both the US and Germany are different as well as the arbitration laws. A different environment has created a different union. Codetermination was made law post WW2 to avoid the violent outbreaks that were occurring in the US in establishing unions.

3. Nonsense. Shorter supply chains have a lot to do with quality control. Redundancy prevents work stoppages, but if you dont have to worry about that why bother? Its not institutional, its business based.

4. Marketing frequently is the basis for everything that follows. Listening to customer feedback and actively seeking it are part of the marketing process, if you want to make a better product, you engage in that part of the process so you can know what customers want done differently. US markets did not do this for a long time, they were engaged in a push market rather than pull market.

5. Its not the institutions. Companies dont do things for altruistic reasons. The quality control in German companies is tighter and the German product model is based in quality. EVERY product. Not just cars.

LOL that statement is idiotic. Easiest refute: The Yugo. I rest my case.

Explaining business concepts to you is like explaining fur to a fish. You have some pie in the sky socio liberal response to it that doesnt bear any resemblence to reality and its getting tiresome whack a moling your misguided concepts.
Click to expand...

1. Yeah ... But talks like saying the reason the US military is so good, is because of technology, not governemnt spending. Its good management, also the product price point is different in different markets.

2. I'm saying the Unions are a different animal BECAUSE of the union power and the institutional framework, and it seams like you agree, also the Codetermination laws were also put in to limit the power of capitalists.

3. It is institutional, Germany has a policies preventing companies from exploiting foreign labor and preventing outsourcing, also the shorter supply chains come form the social-market model .

4. Ok

5. It IS institutions, no **** they don't do thinkgs for altruistic reasons, they do it because its the best way to run things WITHIN THE INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK ... Its not just that Americans are dumber than Germanys, there are actual differences in economic policy that create those things.

What you're arguing is like arguing that people simply enjoy smoking less today than they did before, totally ignoring the changes in policies and information that caused those things. Most of what you're saying is true, but its doesn't happen in a bubble for no reason, buisiness practices are shaped by incentive systems which are created by the institutional framework the economy runs in.

But are you claiming that Co-Determination doesn't contribute largely to the strength of German industry?
 
j-mac said:
Answer the questions.
Click to expand...

1. There has never BEEN a socialist country, but countries that have implimented socailistic reforms have done better than countries that havn't, including in the first world, like Northern Europe vrs the US.

2. That's a strawman, I'm not arguing for Leninism ... Capitalism is enforced by a gun, thats how Capitalist property laws are made, and if you look at the history of Capitalism, it was accomplished through the barrel of a gun.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. Yeah ... But talks like saying the reason the US military is so good, is because of technology, not governemnt spending. Its good management, also the product price point is different in different markets.

2. I'm saying the Unions are a different animal BECAUSE of the union power and the institutional framework, and it seams like you agree, also the Codetermination laws were also put in to limit the power of capitalists.

3. It is institutional, Germany has a policies preventing companies from exploiting foreign labor and preventing outsourcing, also the shorter supply chains come form the social-market model .

4. Ok

5. It IS institutions, no **** they don't do thinkgs for altruistic reasons, they do it because its the best way to run things WITHIN THE INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK ... Its not just that Americans are dumber than Germanys, there are actual differences in economic policy that create those things.

What you're arguing is like arguing that people simply enjoy smoking less today than they did before, totally ignoring the changes in policies and information that caused those things. Most of what you're saying is true, but its doesn't happen in a bubble for no reason, buisiness practices are shaped by incentive systems which are created by the institutional framework the economy runs in.

But are you claiming that Co-Determination doesn't contribute largely to the strength of German industry?
Click to expand...

1. The US military is good because of a number of reasons: culture, training strength, adaptability, and the people in it. Money provides the base, what is done with it afterwards make it great.

2. No. The laws were put into place to keep unions and management from having violent outbreaks against each other and mitigate the possibilities of wildcat strikes, scab workers and a number of other things. Saying it was just about capitalism is your liberal talking points again.

3. No, they dont. The companies themselves prevent that to keep economic advantage from outsourcing the things they do best. They want to maintain the advantage of knowing advanced manufacturing process. This is a result of the co-determination board, workers see long term stability from learning new processes and keeping them inside Germany and are miles ahead of accomodating to new procedures and manufacturing processes. Outsourcing is not illegal in Germany. If you want to refute this, cite a source that concretely spells it out.

5. If you are seriously going to put forward that shorter supply chains are based in German institutions, we dont have much to talk about. Its a business decision its not institutional, quality control is of greater importance in Germany as is stability. Both lend themselves to smaller supply chains and quality circles.

Im arguing that the co-determination board is there to blunt the adversarial nature of the union versus management dynamic and it was done to make the country stable and peaceful after seeing the problems cause by those issues in the US in the 20s and 30s. I live in mine war country, it was bloody. Co-determination boards are not JUST there to act as a brake on management, its also there to soften hardline stances from union leadership.
 
Last edited:
RGacky3 said:
Thats rediculous ... thats like arguing that the reason black people are better off now is because black people have better morals now.
Click to expand...

Both the hypothetical cause and effect in this statement are news to me.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. There has never BEEN a socialist country, but countries that have implimented socailistic reforms have done better than countries that havn't, including in the first world, like Northern Europe vrs the US.

2. That's a strawman, I'm not arguing for Leninism ... Capitalism is enforced by a gun, thats how Capitalist property laws are made, and if you look at the history of Capitalism, it was accomplished through the barrel of a gun.
Click to expand...

1. Soviet Russia says hello.

2. Thats because thats the only way monarchies would ALLOW it.
 
OpportunityCost said:
1. The US military is good because of a number of reasons: culture, training strength, adaptability, and the people in it. Money provides the base, what is done with it afterwards make it great.

2. No. The laws were put into place to keep unions and management from having violent outbreaks against each other and mitigate the possibilities of wildcat strikes, scab workers and a number of other things. Saying it was just about capitalism is your liberal talking points again.

3. No, they dont. The companies themselves prevent that to keep economic advantage from outsourcing the things they do best. They want to maintain the advantage of knowing advanced manufacturing process. This is a result of the co-determination board, workers see long term stability from learning new processes and keeping them inside Germany and are miles ahead of accomodating to new procedures and manufacturing processes. Outsourcing is not illegal in Germany. If you want to refute this, cite a source that concretely spells it out.

5. If you are seriously going to put forward that shorter supply chains are based in German institutions, we dont have much to talk about. Its a business decision its not institutional, quality control is of greater importance in Germany as is stability. Both lend themselves to smaller supply chains and quality circles.
Click to expand...

1. There we go, you have an idealist way of looking at the world, I look at it from a materialist standpoint, honestly what makes the US military good, is primarily the amount of funding and the government support.

2. It was also about taking control away from the capitalists, who were a big part of the rise of hitler, also it avoided violent outbreaks BY GIVING UNIONS MORE POWER, which I am in favor of.

3. Exactly, also outsourcing is not illigal, but Germany has many incentive structures that disencourage it. But I'm happy you accept that co-determination is a big part of what makes teh german buisiness culture what it is.

5. Buisiness decisions are not made in a vaccume ... thats my point. What you are arguing is like arguing that the US military is good not because of money but because of technology ... The 2 are not seperate.
 
Mathematician said:
Both the hypothetical cause and effect in this statement are news to me.
Click to expand...

As they are to me. Which is why arguing that social democratic countries are better because of "culture" not economic systems is just as rediculous.
 
OpportunityCost said:
1. Soviet Russia says hello.

2. Thats because thats the only way monarchies would ALLOW it.
Click to expand...

1. Soviet Russia wasn'n an economic democracy ....

2. Who was talking about monarchies??? Also since when do they need to ALLOW it?
 
RGacky3 said:
1. There we go, you have an idealist way of looking at the world, I look at it from a materialist standpoint, honestly what makes the US military good, is primarily the amount of funding and the government support.

2. It was also about taking control away from the capitalists, who were a big part of the rise of hitler, also it avoided violent outbreaks BY GIVING UNIONS MORE POWER, which I am in favor of.

3. Exactly, also outsourcing is not illigal, but Germany has many incentive structures that disencourage it. But I'm happy you accept that co-determination is a big part of what makes teh german buisiness culture what it is.

5. Buisiness decisions are not made in a vaccume ... thats my point. What you are arguing is like arguing that the US military is good not because of money but because of technology ... The 2 are not seperate.
Click to expand...

1. Say that to a marine. Youre wrong. Its training, culture, and re-socialization hard at work. Support and funding occur AFTER bootcamp.

2. That is socialist propaganda bull****. Dont godwin the thread with moronic statements you cant begin to support.

3. Backpedal much? Dont try to say something is illegal then worm your way out of it by agreeing with me after you get burnt.

5. You are ignoring that the US placed the stability model into the German legal structure because we had a lot of input into legal framework after WW2. What happened, and its a good thing, is German cultural influences on quality and stability and hard work, were adapted into the co-determination efforts to make a stronger whole. Their culture and their institutions helped shape each other. You argue that the co-determination board decides everything is too simple in nature. The co-determination process squeezes concessions from both sides and changes the labor/management dynamic. Management still controls the reins but with input from labor. Your misconcepts about how much power the co-determination process gives to labor are littered throughout this thread. You have backtracked repeatedly because you dont know jack about business process and fall back on your social institution crapola that you cant begin to prove.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. Soviet Russia wasn'n an economic democracy ....

2. Who was talking about monarchies??? Also since when do they need to ALLOW it?
Click to expand...

1. Oh so the goal posts move do they?

2. Capitalist property rights arose after monarchies fell. Pointing back to the example you ignored, it looks like Soviet Russian property rights arose from the barrel of a gun as well. Funny how that works.
 
OpportunityCost said:
1. Say that to a marine. Youre wrong. Its training, culture, and re-socialization hard at work. Support and funding occur AFTER bootcamp.

2. That is socialist propaganda bull****. Dont godwin the thread with moronic statements you cant begin to support.

3. Backpedal much? Dont try to say something is illegal then worm your way out of it by agreeing with me after you get burnt.

5. You are ignoring that the US placed the stability model into the German legal structure because we had a lot of input into legal framework after WW2. What happened, and its a good thing, is German cultural influences on quality and stability and hard work, were adapted into the co-determination efforts to make a stronger whole. Their culture and their institutions helped shape each other. You argue that the co-determination board decides everything is too simple in nature. The co-determination process squeezes concessions from both sides and changes the labor/management dynamic. Management still controls the reins but with input from labor. Your misconcepts about how much power the co-determination process gives to labor are littered throughout this thread. You have backtracked repeatedly because you dont know jack about business process and fall back on your social institution crapola that you cant begin to prove.
Click to expand...

1. You can say it to a marine, and also a marine of any other country. Support and Funding CREATE bootcamp.

2. Hitlers policies propped up the German Capitalist class, and they fully supported him, mainly because they were afraid of socialists and communists who were very powerful at the time and because hitler promised to get out of treaties that hindered buisiness, Hitler's government created huge demand giving tons of profit for capitalists, and they were able to monopolize and cartelize.

3. I never said it was illigal did I ... I said there was legislation that prevented it, mainly through incentive structures. Also You agreed with me that co-determination is what created that buisiness enviroment.

5. I never said co-determination board decides everything, nor have I backtracked, the workers have significant power through unions AND co-determination, co-determination came about right after ww2. But again this is not JUST Germany, its most of the countries that have social democratic institutions, btw when neo-liberal policies have success (generally followed by a crash) you say its the system, yet when social democratic policies have success its the culture????
 
OpportunityCost said:
1. Oh so the goal posts move do they?

2. Capitalist property rights arose after monarchies fell. Pointing back to the example you ignored, it looks like Soviet Russian property rights arose from the barrel of a gun as well. Funny how that works.
Click to expand...

1. I've ALWAYS been anti-Leninist, as have most socialists ...

2. Yeah ... capitalist property rights after monarchies fell .... Monarchies didn't "allow it," although generally they actually did in the end. Also why are you talkinga bout Soviet Russia???
 
Mustachio said:
What does boycotting Wal-Mart mean? Does it mean not shopping there? Because I don't. And I'm liberal, that doesn't mean I'm a Democrat.

Who is going to spend their time boycotting stores? I chose my job according to what I feel good about doing. My line of work is helping people for much less money than I would get paid were I to spend my time trying to make money. I agree that the vast majority of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. But I would caution you against thinking that anybody who says they hate Wal-Mart is a hypocrite because "they probably shop there too." Well I don't. I support local businesses, I go to farmer's markets and "ma and pa" stores, and I have no problem paying a little more for a responsible business. Even when I order pizza I call the local dude (a first generation immigrant from Italy who's pizza is awesome btw).

I don't make much money and I can do it. Other people can, too. Asking for us to call in sick to go picket is ridiculous. I think a lot of people shop at Wal-Mart and other retail giants instead of supporting local commerce, and then try to justify it with the "it's what we all do" mentality. Well, I don't do it. Maybe more people should stop justifying how they spend their money and start paying more attention to it.
Click to expand...

I'm not asking you to do anything.

You can split hairs over how you choose to identify yourself but the point is roughly half of the third most populous country in the world claims to support higher wages, better benefits, etc. for low income employees and are willing to pay more for it. "Main Street" is not disappearing because Walmart and Target are opening up.
 
Donahue said:
Wages are not set by how profitable a company is.

They're set by market based conditions.

A guy cutting deli meat in King Kullen's earns roughly the same as a guy cutting deli meat in Pathmark regardless of which stores is doing better.
Click to expand...

Which kind of contradicts the free market propoponant claim that government/unions aren't needed because higher wages come as a result of higher productivity and higher profit margins. This also flies in the face of wages at the top in companies. They have seen exponential wage increases over the past couple of decades.

So workers can expect wage cuts, firings, benefit cuts when companies do bad but if those same companies do well they shouldn't expect any of the gains?
 
iliveonramen said:
Which kind of contradicts the free market propoponant claim that government/unions aren't needed because higher wages come as a result of higher productivity and higher profit margins. This also flies in the face of wages at the top in companies. They have seen exponential wage increases over the past couple of decades.

So workers can expect wage cuts, firings, benefit cuts when companies do bad but if those same companies do well they shouldn't expect any of the gains?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, because increased productivity doesn't always mean the worker is doing more work.
In manufacturing, worker productivity has continued to increase through machine assist, ergonomics and other contributing factors.

If a company buys a machine, to increase worker productivity, why does the worker deserve more wages?
 
DVSentinel said:
Yes, but it was a false economy. That was after WW II, basically, the US, Canada and Australia were the only countries left with their full capacity intact. Canada and Australia have very low populations and do not have the resources available in the US, so while they did ok, even well, they could not match the US.

Once other Nations like Britain, Germany, Japan and others finished their rebuilding and were able to enter the market, the US share of the market began declining and US companies that previously dominated and had little competition worldwide now found themselves having to compete. Couple this with the decline of the US Education system, social upheavals, Government dept and regulation, reduced quality received from labor increased costs of labor and probably some more factors that are not coming to mind at the moment, it is not surprising that America has been declining, it is surprising that it has not outright failed yet. Unions transition from making needed changes in the system to just plain greed is one of the major factors in the decline. Unions today serve only two real purposes, express the greedy demands of it's members and garner as much as they can to assuage the greed of their members.
Click to expand...

Greed can be found in all sectors. It is not limited to unions. Both sides must deal with the issue. However, a few points. We moved to place where people really had to borrow t,o achieve the dream, a lot. Credit was taken beyond proper levels and has become the norm. This did more to create a false economy than anything else. Moving jobs overseas was not something donre out of real need, but that greed on the other side of the relationship. As I said, both sides have greed.

Regulations, something not found is countries like China btw, often have a real reason for being. Without them the work place is often less safe, and so is the consumer. Mean h regulation should be measured in this light. Didn't Walmart lose a lot of workers at an overseas branch recently due to fire, at a place without regulations hat would have prevented the loss of life?

Anyway, would we better to work for a lot lees and with either benefits or government healthcare?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Not necessarily, because increased productivity doesn't always mean the worker is doing more work.
In manufacturing, worker productivity has continued to increase through machine assist, ergonomics and other contributing factors.

If a company buys a machine, to increase worker productivity, why does the worker deserve more wages?
Click to expand...

Deserve may not be a good word.

When all the companies have bought all the applicable machines, all the profitable work will be being done by substantially less than all the people who need a job so they don't die.

This is something that is happening, it is going to become a big problem pretty soon.
 
What if...? said:
Deserve may not be a good word.
Click to expand...

Deserve is a good word.
What else are they doing to contribute to productivity, to merit a wage increase?

What if...? said:
When all the companies have bought all the applicable machines, all the profitable work will be being done by substantially less than all the people who need a job so they don't die.

This is something that is happening, it is going to become a big problem pretty soon.
Click to expand...

Well, we're just seeing the rise of 3D printing, which I believe will eliminate a lot of manual production jobs.
Even developing nations can't compete with that.

We've moved from a production economy, to a brain economy, which will change to an idea economy.
The idea economy, is the next revolution.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Deserve is a good word.
What else are they doing to contribute to productivity, to merit a wage increase?
Click to expand...

What did CEO's do to contribute to productivity to merit 300% compensation increase.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom