• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Walmart workers demand better wages

They have to go through austerity because their social programs spent all their money..... :doh

And you chose to move out of the U.S.

A: there are other ways to deal with the problem.
B: They've had social programs for decades and infact cut them, the problem was the financial crash not the social programs.
D: Yeah I chose to move out of the US ... Which doesn't say anthing to the point I was making that just the ability to move jobs doesn't make them any less tyrannical.
 
So you would put the number and quality of inventions of European Union in the last 80 years next to those of the United States?

I would bet more since the 1960s (the EU hasn't been around for 80 years), but I have no idea ...but that is'nt what I said ... its a strawman, I said it came out of the PUBLIC SECTOR, the NOT FOR PROFIT SECTOR.

Asia is doing it better, and more sustain-ably. Venezuela will be right back where they started when their oil exports run out.

Asia is a big continent with different policies, but the improvement isn't as shart, nor can it be put on a policy, instead its basically just huge capital investment, also Asia will be back where it was when it stops being the world's sweatshop.

As far as Oil exports, we'll have to wait and see, but I wan'st JUST talking about venezeula.

This was a problem long before 2007. It would've been a problem without the recession. The recession just made it worse because recent college grads were usually the first ones to be fired.

You can see a steady inverse relationship between the rising cost of college, and the falling value of a general college degree over the last 30 years. We need to seriously "ReformCollege." Too many of the general introductory classes would be better done as a low cost online certification, rather than an actual degree. That would fulfill the basic requirement of allowing college to educate people and introduce themselves to different things in the world; meanwhile keeping the current, more expensive, college structure for smaller class sizes, and more intense learning. There is absolutely no reason why I should be required to sign up for an 500 person introductory course, and pay $750 to fill out three scantron tests.

As far as liberal arts degrees, my personal opinion is that its good to take a few select liberal arts courses sporadically to cultural myself and force myself to think and see things I otherwise wouldn't have. But I'm still getting a degree to get a job, if we are going to sell college as a vessel for class mobility, and it is going to be priced as such, then the degree needs to get you a job and it needs to pay itself off.

Well the huge unemployment came after 2007, the giant rise in poverty came after 2007, the giant wealth gaps came afte 2007, and so on.

I agree we should reform university, but thats neither here nor there, for this discussion.

That's why capitalism is doubling the size of the global middle class by 2030.... right?

Captialism isn't failing. The United States economy is still weak, but we are not on the verge of collapse like the European Union is. You claim all of these wonderful social programs that Europe has, yet fail to state that many countries in Europe are moving in the opposite direction. Sweden is moving towards more capitalism. Germany made cuts to its social programs in the early 2000's, and is more of a Keynesian Capitalist economy rather than a socialist one. Greece didn't, and they are imploding. France won't, and they are expected to be the next Greece.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." -- Winston Churchill

I don't think capitalism will double the size of the middle class by 2030, other than perhaps countries that are lagging behind joining glocal capitalism.

Capitalism DID fail in the 30s and in 2007, the ONLY thing that saved it was giant giant governement bailouts and spending ... both times. As far as the EU, what is on the verge of collapse is the single monitary base with different fiscal policies, which is basically a kind of gold standard.

Sweden isn't moving toward capitalism perse, it did somewhat in the 90s, but its learning its lesson from thant, Germany made cuts but kept the major institutions that were what made it socialist (as did sweeden), Greece privitized their financial industry ... thats much more a move toward capitalism than cutting some social programs.

Socialism is not tax and welfare, it isn't social programs, its democratic instituions, co-determination, strong unions, public industries and so on.
 
:lamo Really? You are so full of yourself that you actually believe that "most" anyone follows your line of thinking?

that's a good one. :lol:

Most socialists yeah .... in my experience.

Maybe that is because in your attempt to twist words, you actually misname what it is you actually are. I believe it is an anarcho-communist.

Whatever ...

How magnanimous of you. Look, people like their representative republic just fine. What makes you think that the country wants to scrap that?

I never said they did ... representative republic is a political system, I'm talking about the economic sector.

With your views expressed so far, where is the wealth going to come from?

There is plenty of wealth around ... all the natural resources, all the capital, tons of it just laying doing nothing, and so on.

Name a couple you think the US could model after and make work....

I would say the co-determination laws in scandanavia and Germany would work extremely well here in the US, I would say nationalizing the major Oil/Energy companies like in Norway and Venezuela and Bolivia and so on, I'd say having a publically accountable bank like in Norway would do well, I'd say having more cooperatives such as in Denmark and Northern Italy, and corporate law that makes it more favorable to cooperatives (right not its much more favorable to private corporations), oh and step 1 Public healthcare.

Well, I'll give it to ya, it is systematic. But since the entire ed system is run, and organized by progressive dolts I'll stick with my assessment thanks.

yeah ... Progressives like TiM Geithner, Larry Summers, Jeff Immelt, Robert Rubin, common ... be serious.

When you actually understand how business works, get back to me.

Not really a response to anything, it seams to me that you have none.

Am I reading this right? You think the USSR was too capitalist? :lamo

They followed the capitalist mode of production, only replacing the capitalist with state commisars.
 
I would bet more since the 1960s (the EU hasn't been around for 80 years), but I have no idea ...but that is'nt what I said ... its a strawman, I said it came out of the PUBLIC SECTOR, the NOT FOR PROFIT SECTOR.
Is Apple a public sector company? How about Microsoft?

How about all the pharmaceutical companies in MY country, that YOUR country relies on for health care?


Asia is a big continent with different policies, but the improvement isn't as shart, nor can it be put on a policy, instead its basically just huge capital investment, also Asia will be back where it was when it stops being the world's sweatshop.

Hmmm.... no
but nice try. Factories provide infrastructure

They are actually starting to develop their own industries, their own consumer base, so forth
Lifting people out of poverty based strictly on a country's supply of non-renewable resources
Asia is booming, and will be the dominant force for the next decade. Western Civilization as we know it, will be taking a back seat.... I can promise you that.
As far as Oil exports, we'll have to wait and see, but I wan'st JUST talking about venezeula.


Well the huge unemployment came after 2007, the giant rise in poverty came after 2007, the giant wealth gaps came afte 2007, and so on.
Its called a recession. Every single one of your "wonderful socialist europe" countries are still feeling it. Recessions are natural, regardless of the dominant economic system.

And actually, you are dead wrong. The recession actually destroyed more wealth as a % of the top 20th percentile more so than any other percentile in the country. So no..... the gap in wealth actually dropped.

I don't think capitalism will double the size of the middle class by 2030, other than perhaps countries that are lagging behind joining glocal capitalism.
Well, allow me to enlighten you

An emerging middle class - OECD Observer

Capitalism DID fail in the 30s and in 2007, the ONLY thing that saved it was giant giant governement bailouts and spending ... both times. As far as the EU, what is on the verge of collapse is the single monitary base with different fiscal policies, which is basically a kind of gold standard.

What failed in the 1930s were the banks. What failed in the 1930s was global trade (due to protectionism, which is NOT capitalism). Had the money supply not contracted so dramatically, and had we not put up such severe trade laws, the depression would've been over in 3-4 years. What saved capitalism in the 1930s was NOT GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. It was us resuming global free trade by producing war supplies. It may have been government run, but thats not what is important. What is important.. was global trade reinflated aggregate demand. Trade is essential in capitalism.... so saying that capitalism almost failed without trade has nothing to do with flaws in capitalism and everything to do with how important free trade is.

Capitalism did not fail in 2007.

Sweden isn't moving toward capitalism perse, it did somewhat in the 90s, but its learning its lesson from thant, Germany made cuts but kept the major institutions that were what made it socialist (as did sweeden), Greece privitized their financial industry ... thats much more a move toward capitalism than cutting some social programs.
Socialism is not tax and welfare, it isn't social programs, its democratic instituions, co-determination, strong unions, public industries and so on.

Well if socialism isn't tax and welfare.... then what category does tax and welfare come from? It certainly isn't a part of capitalism.
 
I don't think you understand what I am saying. Third parties, by definition, subtract wealth from the healthcare system. Whatever services are provided by the healthcare industry, doctors could provide them at a cheaper cost without the cost of regulation, extra staff for paperwork, overhead profits, etc. etc.

Its easy to mix up what it currently costs to be uninsured, with what it would cost if there were no insurance. Being uninsured now... doctors still have to pay their extra paperwork staff the same amount, regardless of whether or not YOU specifically have health insurance. Plus... current prices are based in part on the % of premiums doctors recieve from the health insurance company for certain services... so if you are uninsured, you are pretty much picking up the bill instead of insurance companies for that enormous amount of money that would've been deducted from premiums. Insurance companies + doctors alike are benefited by driving premiums up, creating an external upward pricing pressure. However, without insurance, that pricing model would disappear, and the rate you would pay would be more of a market set rate. Market set rates would not have that upward pricing pressure, and more likely would have a slight down pricing pressure.

UHC would be an improvement, but I will always contend that if we can use a market constructed way of reducing prices + increasing the # amount of human resources (doctors, nurses etc.), then that should be step number one. Then... if every single one of the free market solutions (notice I say free market, I don't mean "let the free market work itself out," but rather I think we should use our understanding of the free market to construct solutions) don't work out, then and only then, would I say okay lets move to a UHC.

Whether doctors could do it cheaper or not, they could not do it cheap enough to make it affordable for all. A good number of people would not be able to afford health care.

Now, I think we agree UHC would be better than what we have now. But a lack of a third means less access overall.
 
Is Apple a public sector company? How about Microsoft?

How about all the pharmaceutical companies in MY country, that YOUR country relies on for health care?

Apple and Microsoft got most of their research and technology from institutions like MIT and other not for profit public sector institutions, the same with pharmaceutical companies ... btw, its not just YOUR country, there are tons of countries with pharmaceutical companies ... also they arn't Americna pharmeceutical companies, they are multi-nationals, I love how you are patriotic about "American" companies, that don't give a rats ass about you or your country.

Hmmm.... no
but nice try. Factories provide infrastructure

They are actually starting to develop their own industries, their own consumer base, so forth
Lifting people out of poverty based strictly on a country's supply of non-renewable resources
Asia is booming, and will be the dominant force for the next decade. Western Civilization as we know it, will be taking a back seat.... I can promise you that.

Factories don't .... they rely on infastructure ... They are trying yes ... but they are still heavily dependant on the west, and they also depend on heavy government intervention.

Latin America isn't relying on Oil ... Venezuela is profiting by it, but noy 100% relying on it, you also have to look at the other Latin American countries going left.

As far as Asia booming ... depends where, and which ones.

Its called a recession. Every single one of your "wonderful socialist europe" countries are still feeling it. Recessions are natural, regardless of the dominant economic system.

And actually, you are dead wrong. The recession actually destroyed more wealth as a % of the top 20th percentile more so than any other percentile in the country. So no..... the gap in wealth actually dropped.

Except the ones that were following intellegent socail democratic policies are not really hurting that bad, those that privitized and de-regulated are feeling it way worse. Recessions are NOT natural ... the are a part of Capitalism, pre-capitalism economic issues came from so called "acts of God" or war or non economic issues, only in capitalism does too much production or too much capital, or financialization create an economic crisis.

The wealth gap dropped?

2010-Census-Reveals-Income-Inequality-Gap-1947-2010.jpg


Again .. we'll have to wait and see.

What failed in the 1930s were the banks. What failed in the 1930s was global trade (due to protectionism, which is NOT capitalism). Had the money supply not contracted so dramatically, and had we not put up such severe trade laws, the depression would've been over in 3-4 years. What saved capitalism in the 1930s was NOT GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. It was us resuming global free trade by producing war supplies. It may have been government run, but thats not what is important. What is important.. was global trade reinflated aggregate demand. Trade is essential in capitalism.... so saying that capitalism almost failed without trade has nothing to do with flaws in capitalism and everything to do with how important free trade is.

Capitalism did not fail in 2007.

The financial system failed which ended up ruining Capitalism ... Also the "protectionism" had been there the entire time, the contraction in money supply came not from the public sector by the banking sector, the severe trade laws were not just the US, the US's trade laws came in as a response from other countries. What saved capitalism WAS government intervention, gaint government spending, and a built up middle class through that governemnt spending.

The trade was there, and that wasn't the cause since protectionism had been a part of capitalism for decades and infact was what build the great economic powers.

What caused the crash was the growing inequality (a natural part of Capitalism), and the natural internal contradictions of Capitalism.

Well if socialism isn't tax and welfare.... then what category does tax and welfare come from? It certainly isn't a part of capitalism.

Its an integral part of Capitalism ... It keeps it from collapsing, I'd say its just sensible Capitalism, or friendly capitalism, but it certainly isn't socialism.
 
HSA is only helpful in some cases, and not a real solution. It is virtual no real help for me. Our med costs are too large. Insurance is much better. But it does nothing t all for the major problems we face with health.

HSA's are part of an insurance plan.

If you're already sick/diseased/whatever, yea it's to late.
For the rest of us, who have yet to reach that point, it's perfect.
 
HSA's are part of an insurance plan.

If you're already sick/diseased/whatever, yea it's to late.
For the rest of us, who have yet to reach that point, it's perfect.

Assuming you make enough money for it to matter. At the end of the day, it's a minor aid and not a solution to much of anything.
 
Assuming you make enough money for it to matter. At the end of the day, it's a minor aid and not a solution to much of anything.

Sorry but that's just not true.
You don't have to to have a high income to make it work.

It works by making small contributions over time.
 
Sorry but that's just not true.
You don't have to to have a high income to make it work.

It works by making small contributions over time.

Actually, you do. Or at least a reasonable one. My wife's $1,200 dollar a month med bill requires I be able to pay for it.
 
Actually, you do. Or at least a reasonable one. My wife's $1,200 dollar a month med bill requires I be able to pay for it.

Ok, but your wife's med bill, isn't the med bill for non sick people.
You're jumping to conclusions based on your specific situation, when most people won't have such a med bill in their early adult lives (18-40).
That's 22 years of dedicated savings, to help cover medicines, co pays, deductibles, etc.
Which, if you do it right, is growing with, if not more than inflation.

This is similar to the system Singapore uses and how they keep their medical costs, at a fraction of any other nation.
 
Ok, but your wife's med bill, isn't the med bill for non sick people.
You're jumping to conclusions based on your specific situation, when most people won't have such a med bill in their early adult lives (18-40).
That's 22 years of dedicated savings, to help cover medicines, co pays, deductibles, etc.
Which, if you do it right, is growing with, if not more than inflation.

This is similar to the system Singapore uses and how they keep their medical costs, at a fraction of any other nation.

No, I'm actually giving you the situation many are in.

Largely, non sick people are the problem. They become a problem when they get sick and are unprepared for it. Young people do get hurt and ill. Happens more than you might think.
 
No, I'm actually giving you the situation many are in.

Largely, non sick people are the problem. They become a problem when they get sick and are unprepared for it. Young people do get hurt and ill. Happens more than you might think.

Statistics tend to beat you on this.
Yes young people do get ill/hurt, but on average, they don't, not at least as much as older people.

You seem to be completely resistant to anything that isn't full hilt coverage.
Which is terrible as it creates over insured groups, precisely the reason why costs keep ballooning.
 
If someone wants a better pay, then one should seek better education or higher positions. You can't have a floor job, most Wal-Mart workers such as: janitor, stock boy, boxer, cashier, etc. and expect to get raises whenever you would like. Remember how replaceable you are, it most likely took three to five days to train you for your job and there will always be someone else out there willing to work for your wages.
 
Apple and Microsoft got most of their research and technology from institutions like MIT and other not for profit public sector institutions, the same with pharmaceutical companies ... btw, its not just YOUR country, there are tons of countries with pharmaceutical companies ... also they arn't Americna pharmeceutical companies, they are multi-nationals, I love how you are patriotic about "American" companies, that don't give a rats ass about you or your country.

MIT is a public university? :doh

I'm not responding to the rest. I have yet to see you provide a single source/proof/etc besides that one graph, which by the way didn't even disprove my point that the rich lost a greater % of wealth after 2007. All you are doing is rephrasing everything I say in your own idealogical rhetoric. My main points are this, and I'm not repeating them A. Capitalism is growing the world economy B. The world middle class is exploding, with most of the growth coming in capitalist Asia & C. Reductions in poverty+ growth based solely on nonrenewable resources (Venezuela) and little foreign investment and trade or infrastructure development. If you would like to attempt disprove my main points with actual sources instead of your own person vantage point, then maybe I can have an actual debate with you.
 
Whether doctors could do it cheaper or not, they could not do it cheap enough to make it affordable for all. A good number of people would not be able to afford health care.

Now, I think we agree UHC would be better than what we have now. But a lack of a third means less access overall.

Well... right now we aren't doing it cheap enough for all.

But, I think if it makes it more affordable for 95% of the population, that certainly frees up a lot of resources to help the other 5% out.
 
Statistics tend to beat you on this.
Yes young people do get ill/hurt, but on average, they don't, not at least as much as older people.

You seem to be completely resistant to anything that isn't full hilt coverage.
Which is terrible as it creates over insured groups, precisely the reason why costs keep ballooning.

I would not suggest as much as older people. Only that the number is likely higher than you think.

As for acceptance, the program is fine as far as it goes. But it's like pissing on a wild fire. It just doesn't do enough to matter much.
 
Well... right now we aren't doing it cheap enough for all.

But, I think if it makes it more affordable for 95% of the population, that certainly frees up a lot of resources to help the other 5% out.

I don't see anything else doing anything significant for 95% of the population.
 
I don't see anything else doing anything significant for 95% of the population.

I'm still not sure how you think lowering prices will cut access..... Government forcing lower prices by law will cut access, but removing competition barriers in order to lower cost will not; and lower prices should make healthcare more affordable=increase access.
 
I'm still not sure how you think lowering prices will cut access..... Government forcing lower prices by law will cut access, but removing competition barriers in order to lower cost will not; and lower prices should make healthcare more affordable=increase access.

Say I can afford $5 and it costs $100. Even you lower it to $80 you have not made it accessible.

Medicine will not lower enough, can't lower enough to improve access enough to include a significant number of people.
 
Say I can afford $5 and it costs $100. Even you lower it to $80 you have not made it accessible.

Medicine will not lower enough, can't lower enough to improve access enough to include a significant number of people.

But... you are still paying that $100 and extra in premiums... That's my whole point. I'd rather lower it to $80, and then people can just save what they otherwise would pay in premiums, and sit on it until they need to use it themselves.
 
But... you are still paying that $100 and extra in premiums... That's my whole point. I'd rather lower it to $80, and then people can just save what they otherwise would pay in premiums, and sit on it until they need to use it themselves.

Until the bill comes they can't pay at all, then services either are denied, or we pass it on to someone else. And people working paycheck to paycheck usually save very little. We might encourage more saving, but our economy requires people spend. And many, well, it's just unrealisitic to expect that there won't be large numbers of people simply without care. All market based solutions end with us either denying care, or passing that on to others.
 
Until the bill comes they can't pay at all, then services either are denied, or we pass it on to someone else. And people working paycheck to paycheck usually save very little. We might encourage more saving, but our economy requires people spend. And many, well, it's just unrealisitic to expect that there won't be large numbers of people simply without care. All market based solutions end with us either denying care, or passing that on to others.

Then just require pay checks automatically contribute to the accounts, and have the government subsidize low income worker's accounts. I'm okay with a mandate to save... not so much a mandate to buy a for profit companies' service.


And like I said... our system wastes an enormous amount of money in the delivery of health care through insurance agencies.
 
MIT is a public university? :doh

I'm not responding to the rest. I have yet to see you provide a single source/proof/etc besides that one graph, which by the way didn't even disprove my point that the rich lost a greater % of wealth after 2007. All you are doing is rephrasing everything I say in your own idealogical rhetoric. My main points are this, and I'm not repeating them A. Capitalism is growing the world economy B. The world middle class is exploding, with most of the growth coming in capitalist Asia & C. Reductions in poverty+ growth based solely on nonrenewable resources (Venezuela) and little foreign investment and trade or infrastructure development. If you would like to attempt disprove my main points with actual sources instead of your own person vantage point, then maybe I can have an actual debate with you.

Its not public but its hugely publically funded and not for profit.

Of coarse the rich lost a greater percentage of wealth ... but thats because the HAD a much greater percentage of wealth ... they still got a bigger slice of the pie though.

A. I agree, Capitalism is growing the world economy, but in doing so its creating internal contradictions and ever growing externalities that will lead it to collapse.

B. That growth is coming from Asian style capitalism, i.e. authoritarian, state capitalism.

C. You havn't shown that it is solely based on nonrenewable resources, and that Venzuela isn't building their economy in other ways, nor have you responded to my points about foreign investment, and so on, I've responded to these points but if you don't like them thats your problem.
 
Its not public but its hugely publically funded and not for profit.

Of coarse the rich lost a greater percentage of wealth ... but thats because the HAD a much greater percentage of wealth ... they still got a bigger slice of the pie though.

A. I agree, Capitalism is growing the world economy, but in doing so its creating internal contradictions and ever growing externalities that will lead it to collapse.

B. That growth is coming from Asian style capitalism, i.e. authoritarian, state capitalism.

C. You havn't shown that it is solely based on nonrenewable resources, and that Venzuela isn't building their economy in other ways, nor have you responded to my points about foreign investment, and so on, I've responded to these points but if you don't like them thats your problem.

"For profit" universities generally give unaccredited degrees with zero value.
But as a student at the second largest university in the U.S. by size, I can tell you even public universities run very much like a for profit company, they seek to maximize endowments, maximize sports related revenues, maximize exposure, maximize reputation, etc etc. And while the school pays our president a fixed salary, the board of trustees gives him bonuses based on performance.

Thats not what I was saying at all. They lost a greater percentage of their wealth then the poor did. "From 2007 to 2008, the richest 1% of Americans lost 8.4% of their income, compared with a 2.6% drop in earnings for the average America. The very richest, the top .01% of Americans, saw their income drop even further, by 12.7%." The rich in the recession: The poor rich | The Economist

I don't know if you know any kind of basic math, but if my wealth falls 10%, and your wealth falls 5%, no matter what the actual amount of wealth either of us has, I got relatively more poor than you did. So If I had more money originally, then the wealth gap between us shrunk. If I had less money, it grew. The rich by definition have more money than the average American so therefore BY DEFINITION, income inequality shrank from 2007-2008.

A. So first you make an argument to unpredictability; now you are making an argument to the future. If the externatilities were so ever growing, then the U.S. should've seen a second great depression, and capitalism would've collapsed. It didn't. But if you want to claim that somewhere in the future you are going to be proven right, then burden of proof is on you for this one.

B. I've stated at least three times, China has been statist for the better part of the last 100 years. But they were authoritative and not growing, actually... it was quite the contrary (Great Leap Forward ring a bell?), and now that they have opened their markets, and allowed capitialism to direct investment into their country, they are growing.




C. I'll respond to both in one swoop. Capitalism IS the foreign investment. They are not some how separate. It is capitalist countries that are doing the foreign investing, and capitalism embracing countries who are receiving the investment. Arguing that they are growing due to global investment is proving my point. The only way that investment stops, is if the leftist labor unions and naive student activist groups make a big enough fuss about it, or those countries suddenly shut themselves down to open markets. Capitalism itself won't end the investment in those countries, it will be something other than capitalism which does that.

Now, Venezuela (I keep using them because they are pretty much South American socialism in a nutshell) on the other hand will fail when they run out of oil money. I'll show you why they are reliant on solely nonrenewable resources.

1. They have a piss poor manufacturing sector "Manufacturing contributed 15% of GDP in 2009. The manufacturing sector is experiencing severe difficulties, amidst lack of investment and accusations of mismanagement." Venezuelas Aluminum Industry Operates At 29 Of Capacity - Economia - El Universal "

"José Guerra, the director of the School of Economy, Central University of Venezuela (UCV), blamed overvaluation of the domestic currency, price control and violation of property rights for the poor performance." Venezuelas Aluminum And Steel Production Below 1997 Numbers - Economia - El Universal

2. Atrocious agricultural management "Since 2003, Chavez has been setting strict price controls on food, and these price controls have been causing shortages and hoarding.[32] In January 2008, Chavez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[33] In February 2009, Chavez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[34] In May 2010, Chavez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar.[35] In March 2009, Chavez set minimum production quotas for 12 basic foods that were subject to price controls, including white rice, cooking oil, coffee, sugar, powdered milk, cheese, and tomato sauce. Business leaders and food producers claimed that the government was forcing them to produce this food at a loss.[36] Chávez has nationalized many large farms. Chávez said of the farmland, "The land is not private. It is the property of the state." Some of the farmland that had been productive while under private ownership is now idle under government ownership, and some of the farm equipment sits gathering dust. As a result, food production has fallen substantially. One farmer, referring to the government officials overseeing the land redistribution, stated, "These people know nothing about agriculture."[37] Chávez has seized many supermarkets from their owners. Under government ownership, the shelves in these supermarkets are often empty.[38] In 2010, after the government nationalized the port at Puerto Cabello, more than 120,000 tons of food sat rotting at the port.[39] In May 2010, after price controls caused shortages of beef, at least 40 butchers were arrested, and some of them were held at a military base and later strip searched by police.[40]"

Economic policy of the Hugo Chávez government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Of course, the proof is in the pudding. Oil money. it is completely depend on oil.
'80 percent of the country’s total export revenue, contributes about half of the central government’s income, and is responsible for about one-third of the country’s gross domestic product"
Venezuela's Oil-Based Economy - Council on Foreign Relations

Therefore we CAN CONCLUDE that Hugo Chavez and the centralized government has no idea how to expand the economy, and is expanding due to publicly realized oil profits. Their economy may be "growing" in the sense that the total amount of money they get from oil goes up every year, so the total amount of money they can invest keeps going up. But considering those investments are not producing any sort of return, the actual GDP growth is strictly based off oil putting more money into their economy. So when that oil money runs out, they will pretty much be SOL, considering they are failing miserably to actually develop any sort of industry.

Now, if it were multinationals who were managing those investments, you can be damn sure that factories wouldn't be producing at 29% capacity, food wouldn't be rotting openly in ports, and supermarket shelves wouldn't be completely bare.
 
Back
Top Bottom