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With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debate

Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Geoist said:
We could stop funding a failed policy and reform our drug laws. There is a lot that could be done because the drug lords depend on US consumers.
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That doesn't change my point that there is nothing either of them could do about the problem.

Any changes need to go through the Congress, not from the President.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Fisher said:
Perhaps if you were to inform yourself with what landowners living along the border have been dealing with for the last 20-30 years then the need to do something wouldn't be such ideological "tripe" to you.
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I'm very sympathetic to the border landowner's plight from the drug war. I live in Florida and can remember when bales came crashing through the roof of homeowners. Nothing like back in the 80's, but contraband STILL washes up on the beaches. Ordinary pleasure boaters are STILL harrassed by federal agents acting like they are on a mission from God.

The point is, the prohibition causes a litany of social pathologies, not the least of which are arrogant federal agents in boats and whatever problems you folks along the Rio Grande and elsewhere experience.

The point is that not only is the drug war stupid, counterproductive and illegitimate, but that after 98 years of prohibition, it is intellectually dishonest to claim that bombing Mexico is somehow going to win that perpetual futility.

Is High Explosive and murder the answer to all our problems?
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Henry David said:
Is High Explosive and murder the answer to all our problems?
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A lot of them, yes. If only we could get away with it more....
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Fisher said:
I have never understood why we do not do more with Mexico, and why the people of Mexico do not stand up to this on their own. I wouldn't mind it if we started scrambling jets out of Texas to bomb Mexican drug facilities. Our passive interest in the plight of those living on the border is really embarrassing.
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I can understand why we haven't. The last thing we need is to create a new little Al Qaeda right across the Mexican border. These people are already good at sneaking into our country with contraband. If we send jets to bomb their facilities they will probably send their people over with bombs instead of weed.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Ray410 said:
The larger question is why the 80 million Mexicans that have colonized the United States don't go back to their own country and solve their own problems.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Mexicans are a dependent culture that expects others to support them and solve their problems. Much, much easier to stay in the US and whine about the Americans than to actually do something.
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"Mexicans" risk everything to come to a foreign country and work their ass off to provide for a family, in spite of an inept and corrupt home government. Wouldst that more Americans were like 'Mexicans'.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Mason66 said:
That doesn't change my point that there is nothing either of them could do about the problem.

Any changes need to go through the Congress, not from the President.
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The President has tremendous influence over Congress. How do you think Obamacare came about?
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

jamesrage said:
None of those things are have anything to do with the 60,000 Mexicans getting killed.
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The turmoil and deaths have nothing to do with the Drug War? This has no impact on trade and immigration? I strongly disagree. The 60k deaths are the result of a huge problem that is very much US-related.


Cartels are not going to stop just because another country legalizes certain or all drugs,
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They may not stop completely but such reforms would be a tremendous blow to the cartels just as they were to the mafia after alcohol prohibition.


especially if they can still export their goods and even when US consumers stop purchasing their drugs they'll find other customers and other things to sell.
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Getting the products out of the black market and into the open market is whats important. People aren't getting their heads cut off by Anheisser-Busch.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Geoist said:
The President has tremendous influence over Congress. How do you think Obamacare came about?
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I don't know what country you live in but maybe the President has influence with members on his side and maybe not even then.

And what about Obamacare? He had influence over Congressmen to get Obamacare passed?
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Mason66 said:
I don't know what country you live in but maybe the President has influence with members on his side and maybe not even then.

And what about Obamacare? He had influence over Congressmen to get Obamacare passed?
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Now its my turn: What country do you live in? Obama had been pushing healthcare reform during his campaign and it was one of the first major pieces of legislation the White House pushed Congress to pass after his election.

Remarks of President Barack Obama -- Address to Joint Session of Congress | The White House

So tell me, why would Obama and Clinton have been talking about healthcare reform during their campaigns if they have no influence over such issues as you claim?
 
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Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Geoist said:
Now its my turn: What country do you live in? Obama had been pushing healthcare reform during his campaign and it was one of the first major pieces of legislation the White House pushed Congress to pass after his election.

Remarks of President Barack Obama -- Address to Joint Session of Congress | The White House

So tell me, why would Obama and Clinton have been talking about healthcare reform during their campaigns if they have no influence over such issues as you claim?
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That is correct but he did not influence anybody. He had no help from the Republican side. He has no influence on anybody in the Congress, they do what they want.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Mason66 said:
That is correct but he did not influence anybody. He had no help from the Republican side. He has no influence on anybody in the Congress, they do what they want.
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Actually didn't Olympia Snowe vote for it? In any case, he didn't need to try and influence any Republicans to pass it, only Democrats. If giving a speech to Congress isn't an attempt to influence votes I don't know what is. :confused:
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Krhazy said:
I can understand why we haven't. The last thing we need is to create a new little Al Qaeda right across the Mexican border. These people are already good at sneaking into our country with contraband. If we send jets to bomb their facilities they will probably send their people over with bombs instead of weed.
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Not only that, what Fisher apparently does not realize is that with the possible exception of marijuana, Mexico is merely a transhipment point for drugs from further south. Plus, probably more than half the Mexican Army is protecting the trade by way of bribes.

The ONLY way to end the scourge of prohibition in both countries is to END the prohibition, with pen and paper in Congress. Pen and paper is far better than bombs and machine guns.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Henry David said:
The ONLY way to end the scourge of prohibition in both countries is to END the prohibition, with pen and paper in Congress. Pen and paper is far better than bombs and machine guns.
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I'm not sure that will end it. What happens when pot becomes legitimate? Clean-cut American businessmen begin trying to compete in the market. You think these violent Mexican gangs are going to just let that happen? Them and all the US gangs are just going to become reputable salespeople overnight? That seems unlikely.

Perhaps American business moguls will win the new war. And then what will all these unemployed former drug lords and dealers do? Become janitors? Go to school? Or will they turn to robbery, dealing meth or synthetic drugs, etc?

This is a monumental problem, and I don't think there are any good ways to fix it.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Krhazy said:
I'm not sure that will end it. What happens when pot becomes legitimate? Clean-cut American businessmen begin trying to compete in the market. You think these violent Mexican gangs are going to just let that happen? Them and all the US gangs are just going to become reputable salespeople overnight? That seems unlikely.

Perhaps American business moguls will win the new war. And then what will all these unemployed former drug lords and dealers do? Become janitors? Go to school? Or will they turn to robbery, dealing meth or synthetic drugs, etc?

This is a monumental problem, and I don't think there are any good ways to fix it.
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As we learned with alcohol prohibition, it is driven by money, profit and greed. Prohibiting any particular consumer item simply raises its retail price. Where pot and cocaine and other illegal drugs have minimal inherent value, prohibiting them creates and black market, and they are suddenly worth 10 or 20 times of more their inherent value.

So too, as we saw in 1934, ending the prohibition ends the black market, and the prices of the products come back to a reasonable figure.

Mark Thornton wrote a good book about it in 1991 called The Economics Of Prohibition. It explains the dynamics very well.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Henry David said:
So too, as we saw in 1934, ending the prohibition ends the black market, and the prices of the products come back to a reasonable figure.

Mark Thornton wrote a good book about it in 1991 called The Economics Of Prohibition. It explains the dynamics very well.
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Ending prohibition ended the black market for alcohol, but as far as I am aware the gangs and criminals of the era did not just disappear or turn to legal activities. The Depression may also have obscured some of the effects of ending it.

That book sounds interest, I may check it out. I don't disagree that prohibition of these types of things is bad economic policy and encourages crime. I'm more concerned with what happens when the very large and dangerous criminal industry that prohibition of drugs has created suddenly realizes it is in danger of losing its market power.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Krhazy said:
Ending prohibition ended the black market for alcohol, but as far as I am aware the gangs and criminals of the era did not just disappear or turn to legal activities. The Depression may also have obscured some of the effects of ending it.

That book sounds interest, I may check it out. I don't disagree that prohibition of these types of things is bad economic policy and encourages crime. I'm more concerned with what happens when the very large and dangerous criminal industry that prohibition of drugs has created suddenly realizes it is in danger of losing its market power.
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You're quite right in that the criminal gangs did not necessarily "just disappear", though I would imagine that some did.

But what certainly DID happen was that those criminal gangs suddenly lost HUGE amounts of revenue. Their finances took a big hit.

The same applies to the drug black market today. Sure, there might still be a few gangs around, but with repeal they would lose a significant part of their cash flow. Depending upon circumstances which you and I can only speculate about, perhaps ALL of their cash flow.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Hound

The war on terror was invented by the Feds. The purpose is to demand more money and power from people. So when the intelligence and Pentagon are there, the terror will be there too. If there is none, they create one.

Human have hound in their house to protect their family against the wolf. As the hound getting more power, they don't want to be guards any more. They want to be master. So the hound trained some wolf they captured. Let these agent wolf to attack and kill human. Human is frightened. They give hound whatever they demanded -money, power ..... Now hound become master. When they need something, they let the agent wolf have an attack on human, then said, this is a long war, to protect your lives, I need warrantless surveillance, more budget fund, torture prison.... . The hound repeated its demand, "This enemy has struck us, and they will strike again, and we'll give our folks the tools necessary to protect the country," if you don't then the hound "can not protect ourselves".

That's why we saw after 10 years, occasionally a wolf or two were captured. But hundreds of thousands of innocent people died. There is an endless war to control people. A constant blackmail for more power.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

katsung47 said:
Hound

The war on terror was invented by the Feds. The purpose is to demand more money and power from people. So when the intelligence and Pentagon are there, the terror will be there too. If there is none, they create one.

Human have hound in their house to protect their family against the wolf. As the hound getting more power, they don't want to be guards any more. They want to be master. So the hound trained some wolf they captured. Let these agent wolf to attack and kill human. Human is frightened. They give hound whatever they demanded -money, power ..... Now hound become master. When they need something, they let the agent wolf have an attack on human, then said, this is a long war, to protect your lives, I need warrantless surveillance, more budget fund, torture prison.... . The hound repeated its demand, "This enemy has struck us, and they will strike again, and we'll give our folks the tools necessary to protect the country," if you don't then the hound "can not protect ourselves".

That's why we saw after 10 years, occasionally a wolf or two were captured. But hundreds of thousands of innocent people died. There is an endless war to control people. A constant blackmail for more power.
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Absolutely.:peace

A stellar post.

Some supplemental reading:

"The Council works by targeting different groups and creating tension and hate between them. The CFR works by creating an Enemy the American people will hate, loath, fear, and be willing to fight."

portland imc - 2002.07.01 - A NATION DECEIVED , THE SECRET HISTORY BUSH HOPES YOU NEVER SEE

"Foundations have supported a conscious distortion of history," revealed the Reece Committee. The phrase "conscious distortion" is a polite way of saying blatant lie.

The Hidden Evil: The Financial Elite's control of History, Media, & Academia
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

They need to ask their own GOVT why they're not doing more...why is it always about us doing more why Mexico's police and GOVT continues to be so corrupt. We need to do something agreed...but it has to be first and foremost to protect our country then to help their country. We live near the boarder and use to go into Mexico to eat and shop all the time...no more no way! The Mexican GOVT has forgotten about its people that live along the boarder....they do little to control the drug problem that starts inside their country. I am sick and tired of hearing about how WE should be the ones doing this and from Calderon who talks crap to us about what a bad country we are when it comes to his people coming here illegally and not allowing them citizenship for being here....when his own country does not allow us to just become citizens because we want to of his country. I am for finding a way to make those here legal....but the right way...Agreed we need to do something with the boarder for Drugs and illegal smuggling...but for our country...which hopefully in turn will help theirs...but I doubt it.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Politicaladdict said:
They need to ask their own GOVT why they're not doing more...why is it always about us doing more why Mexico's police and GOVT continues to be so corrupt. We need to do something agreed...but it has to be first and foremost to protect our country then to help their country. We live near the boarder and use to go into Mexico to eat and shop all the time...no more no way! The Mexican GOVT has forgotten about its people that live along the boarder....they do little to control the drug problem that starts inside their country. I am sick and tired of hearing about how WE should be the ones doing this and from Calderon who talks crap to us about what a bad country we are when it comes to his people coming here illegally and not allowing them citizenship for being here....when his own country does not allow us to just become citizens because we want to of his country. I am for finding a way to make those here legal....but the right way...Agreed we need to do something with the boarder for Drugs and illegal smuggling...but for our country...which hopefully in turn will help theirs...but I doubt it.
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Are you saying Calderon did not mobilize the army to fight against the cartels? Are you saying there are not gunfights in the streets every day between the army and the bad guys? I can assure you there are.

What else would you like Calderon, or his successor, to do to fight the Narcos?
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Make all drugs legal - the 'war' would end almost immediately.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Obama the comeback kid?

Lucky for you - the elections are all fixed by the Council on Foreign Relations.

The Presidents got connections ! :mrgreen:
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

R-i-g-g-e-d
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

Ain't nobody got time for that.
 
Re: With 60,000 dead, Mexicans wonder why drug war doesn't rate in presidential debat

KevinKohler said:
If we drop bombs on the production facilities, we MIGHT stop production, which would be devastating to a great deal of high paying government jobs here in the US.


Think about it. Less drugs making it into the country means less cops employed specifically to bust drug dealers. Less drug dealers and users busted means considerably less prison staff. Drug enforcement is a billion dollar a year industry. Average DEA officer makes just over 55k a year. Average prison guard, 45K. Typical cop, if they've been in the force for a few years, is making between 45-60K, depending on state. Then there are all the outfitters of these people...less cops = less guns and tasers, etc. Fewer patrol cars. So on and so forth.
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Ok Mr. Light Yagami.

 
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