• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Iran is heating up . . . [W:259]

Klown said:
What do you know about Iran and its people - and where did you source that information?
Click to expand...

Hence the words "I think." You think they won't? Whatever. What do you know?
 
This is a short story. It is out of copyright. I thought it applied to this discussion.

The Weapon by Frederic Brown (1906 – 1972)
The room was quiet in the dimness of early evening. Dr. James Graham, key scientist of a very important project, sat in his favorite chair, thinking. It was so still that he could hear the turning of pages in the next room as his son leafed through a picture book.

Often Graham did his best work, his most creative thinking, under these circumstances, sitting alone in an unlighted room in his own apartment after the day’s regular work. But tonight his mind would not work constructively. Mostly he thought about his mentally arrested son–his only son–in the next room. The thoughts were loving thoughts, not the bitter anguish he had felt years ago when he had first learned of the boy’s condition. The boy was happy; wasn’t that the main thing? And to how many men is given a child who will always be a child, who will not grow up to leave him? Certainly that was rationalization, but what is wrong with rationalization when– The doorbell rang.

Graham rose and turned on lights in the almost-dark room before he went through the hallway to the door. He was not annoyed; tonight, at this moment, almost any Interruption to his thoughts was welcome.

He opened the door. A stranger stood there; he said, “Dr. Graham? My name is Niemand; I’d like to talk to you. May I come in a moment?”

Graham looked at him. He was a small man, nondescript, obviously harmless–possibly a reporter or an insurance agent.

But it didn’t matter what he was. Graham found himself saying, “Of course. Come in, Mr. Niemand.” A few minutes of conversation, he justified himself by thinking, might divert his thoughts and clear his mind.

“Sit down,” he said, in the living room. “Care for a drink?”

Niemand said, “No, thank you.” He sat in the chair; Graham sat on the sofa.

The small man interlocked his fingers; he leaned forward. He said, “Dr. Graham, you are the man whose scientific work is more likely than that of any other man to end the human race’s chance for survival.”

A crackpot, Graham thought. Too late now he realized that he should have asked the man’s business before admitting him. It would be an embarrassing interview–he disliked being rude, yet only rudeness was effective.

“Dr. Graham, the weapon on which you are working–”

The visitor stopped and turned his head as the door that led to a bedroom opened and a boy of fifteen came in. The boy didn’t notice Niemand; he ran to Graham.

“Daddy, will you read to me now?” The boy of fifteen laughed the sweet laughter of a child of four.

Graham put an arm around the boy. He looked at his visitor, wondering whether he had known about the boy. From the lack of surprise on Niemand’s face, Graham felt sure he had known.

“Harry”–Grab am’s voice was warm with affection”Daddy’s busy. Just for a little while. Go back to your room; I’ll come and read to you soon.”

“Chicken Little? You’ll read me Chicken Little?”

“If you wish. Now run along. Wait. Harry, this is Mr. Niemand.”

The boy smiled bashfully at the visitor. Niemand said, “Hi, Harry,” and smiled back at him, holding out his hand. Graham, watching, was sure now that Niemand had known: the smile and the gesture were for the boy’s mental age, not his physical one.

The boy took Niemand’s hand. For a moment it seemed that he was going to climb into Niemand’s lap, and Graham pulled him back gently. He said, “Go to your room now, Harry.”

The boy skipped back into his bedroom, not closing the door.

Niemand’s eyes met Graham’s and he said, “I like him,” with obvious sincerity. He added, “I hope that what you’re going to read to him will always be true.”

Graham didn’t understand. Niemand said, “Chicken Little, I mean. It’s a fine story–but may Chicken Little always be wrong about the sky falling down.”

Graham suddenly had liked Niemand when Niemand had shown liking for the boy. Now he remembered that he must close the interview quickly. He rose, in dismissal.

He said, “I fear you’re wasting your time and mine, Mr. Niemand. I know all the arguments, everything you can say I’ve heard a thousand times. Possibly there is truth in what you believe, but it does not concern me. I’m a scientist, and only a scientist. Yes, it is public knowledge that I am working on a weapon, a rather ultimate one. But, for me personally, that is only a by-product of the fact that I am advancing science. I have thought it through, and I have found that that is my only concern.”

“But, Dr. Graham, is humanity ready for an ultimate weapon?”

Graham frowned. “I have told you my point of view, Mr. Niemand.”

Niemand rose slowly from the chair. He said, “Very well, if you do not choose to discuss it, I’ll say no more.” He passed a hand across his forehead. “I’ll leave, Dr. Graham. I wonder, though . . . may I change my mind about the drink you offered me?”

Graham’s irritation faded. He said, “Certainly. Will whisky and water do?”

“Admirably.”

Graham excused himself and went into the kitchen. He got the decanter of whisky, another of water, ice cubes, glasses.

When he returned to the living room, Niemand was just

leaving the boy’s bedroom. He heard Niemand’s “Good night, Harry,” and Harry’s happy ” ‘Night, Mr. Niemand.”

Graham made drinks. A little later, Niemand declined a second one and started to leave.

Niemand said, “I took the liberty of bringing a small gift to your son, doctor. I gave it to him while you were getting the drinks for us. 1 hope you’ll forgive me.”

“Of course. Thank you. Good night.”

Graham closed the door; he walked through the living room into Harry’s room. He said, “All right, Harry. Now I’ll read to–”

There was sudden sweat on his forehead, but he forced his face and his voice to be calm as he stepped to the side of the bed. “May I see that, Harry?” When he had it safely, his hands shook as he examined it.

He thought, only a madman would give a loaded revolver to an idiot.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisL said:
I totally agree with most of your assessment except what I colored in red. Why do you think that and how would you know that? Maybe they aren't exaggerating at all.
Click to expand...
I know because I've done the research.

Will Iran nukes cause an arms race? History says not likely and current nuclear programs in the Middle East say the same.

Will Iran hand off nukes to terrorists? Well, they have aided terrorists in the past (172), but they haven't given terrorists chemical weapons and they don't want their country to be flattened. Iran knows which lines will get it destroyed if crossed, so it avoids them and it will likely continue to do so.

Will Iran strike Israel first? Well, considering that a first strike will get it flattened, then no for the reasons stated above. There's also the fact that even it's rhetoric has primarily focused on "second strikes" rather than "first strikes" including the one in the OP.

I would not doubt if Iran has bad intentions against Israel at all. They say they will do it if they have opportunity. Who are we to doubt the words out of their own mouths?
Click to expand...
That's what I said earlier about credible threats. Heads of state having been making threats since they have existed. It's the responsibility of a government to determine when those threats are credible and it's in the interest of the public to educate themselves lest the state mislead them in order to enter an unnecessary war.
 
ChrisL said:
Hence the words "I think." You think they won't? Whatever. What do you know?
Click to expand...

Let me put it this way - I dont rely on CNN and Hollywood movies to determine my opinions on the foreign policy of the USA and any other nation.

I suggest you look elsewhere in the region, where there is ONE nation in the world today that has secret nukes and does not allow international inspections and hasnt even ratified the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty.

From what I see, Iran abides by all legal treaties and has the legal right to develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes.

Looks like US military imperialism again - trying to dominate an energy rich region (a scenario that has been going on since the end of WW2)

Again, I ask you whether any nation in the region feels threatened by Iran, (except for Israel which says Iran is trying to pussh it into the sea - lol - Iran hasnt attacked anyone for over 2 centuries)

Personally, I think Iran is mad to pursue nuclear power in an earth quake zone and a very volatile area. I think it should offer to cease all nuclear power activities, even if ligitimate, and Israel shoudl allow inspections of its nuclear arsenal which it should remove from the region.

Of course I doubt that will happen
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I know because I've done the research.

Will Iran nukes cause an arms race? History says not likely and current nuclear programs in the Middle East say the same.

Will Iran hand off nukes to terrorists? Well, they have aided terrorists in the past (172), but they haven't given terrorists chemical weapons and they don't want their country to be flattened. Iran knows which lines will get it destroyed if crossed, so it avoids them and it will likely continue to do so.

Will Iran strike Israel first? Well, considering that a first strike will get it flattened, then no for the reasons stated above. There's also the fact that even it's rhetoric has primarily focused on "second strikes" rather than "first strikes" including the one in the OP.


That's what I said earlier about credible threats. Heads of state having been making threats since they have existed. It's the responsibility of a government to determine when those threats are credible and it's in the interest of the public to educate themselves lest the state mislead them in order to enter an unnecessary war.
Click to expand...

I have to say that "not likely" is not very comforting. Hopefully you're right, but we really don't know what will happen. How much more ornery will they be if they have nukes? Will they start making demands on the rest of the world using threats of nuclear warfare? Who knows, but I don't think it will amount to anything positive.
 
Assumptions based on Iran's leadership being rational materialists..... they aren't.
 
ChrisL said:
I have to say that "not likely" is not very comforting. Hopefully you're right, but we really don't know what will happen. How much more ornery will they be if they have nukes? Will they start making demands on the rest of the world using threats of nuclear warfare? Who knows, but I don't think it will amount to anything positive.
Click to expand...
There's not much historical evidence to support the prediction that Iran will use threats of nuclear war to make demands of the rest of the world. I have a source on that too, but I can't find it. But the essential point is that the United States could still level Iran and so Iran's "threats" would be laughable. Iran probably wants nukes as a deterrent for the type of invasion that happened to Iraq, particularly since Israel wants to level it and the United States invades just for fun.

And "not likely" might not be comforting, but I suspect it would be more comforting if you knew more about the (lack of) evidence supporting all the alarmist rhetoric that people like Obama and Romney like to use to scare the public into voting for them and agreeing with them.
 
Klown said:
Let me put it this way - I dont rely on CNN and Hollywood movies to determine my opinions on the foreign policy of the USA and any other nation.
Click to expand...

Well I certainly trust sources out of the United States more than what Iran says.

I suggest you look elsewhere in the region, where there is ONE nation in the world today that has secret nukes and does not allow international inspections and hasnt even ratified the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty.
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware, Israel has never made hateful statements towards another country.

From what I see, Iran abides by all legal treaties and has the legal right to develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes.
Click to expand...

LOL. Okay. :shock:

Looks like US military imperialism again - trying to dominate an energy rich region (a scenario that has been going on since the end of WW2)
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Countries tend to not trust other countries who constantly threaten, extort and use violence against and kill their own people. It is disgraceful at least.

Again, I ask you whether any nation in the region feels threatened by Iran, (except for Israel which says Iran is trying to pussh it into the sea - lol - Iran hasnt attacked anyone for over 2 centuries)
Click to expand...

I'll have to do some research into it, but I believe there ARE other nations in the ME who do not like Iran too much.

Personally, I think Iran is mad to pursue nuclear power in an earth quake zone and a very volatile area. I think it should offer to cease all nuclear power activities, even if ligitimate, and Israel shoudl allow inspections of its nuclear arsenal which it should remove from the region. Of course I doubt that will happen
Click to expand...

I agree.
Click to expand...
 
Goshin said:
Assumptions based on Iran's leadership being rational materialists..... they aren't.
Click to expand...
Define "rational materialists."

Iran's leaders are, in fact, rational as it is defined in international politics - rational in the sense that they are interested in survival and won't recklessly jeopardize it.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
There's not much historical evidence to support the prediction that Iran will use threats of nuclear war to make demands of the rest of the world. I have a source on that too, but I can't find it. But the essential point is that the United States could still level Iran and so Iran's "threats" would be laughable. Iran probably wants nukes as a deterrent for the type of invasion that happened to Iraq, particularly since Israel wants to level it and the United States invades just for fun.
Click to expand...

Would we actually do that? And by then, it's already too late. People are dead.

And "not likely" might not be comforting, but I suspect it would be more comforting if you knew more about the (lack of) evidence supporting all the alarmist rhetoric that people like Obama and Romney like to use to scare the public into voting for them and agreeing with them.
Click to expand...

Yes I sure would.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisL said:
Well I certainly trust sources out of the United States more than what Iran says.
Click to expand...
Government leaders and CNN aren't good sources. They will mislead you almost as much as Iran will. You should look at primary sources and actual research if you're genuinely interested in determining if Iran is a credible threat.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisL said:
I have to say that "not likely" is not very comforting. Hopefully you're right, but we really don't know what will happen. How much more ornery will they be if they have nukes? Will they start making demands on the rest of the world using threats of nuclear warfare? Who knows, but I don't think it will amount to anything positive.
Click to expand...

Media and political interest groups are being very irresponsible and missleading on this matter.

If you look at Iran's demographical break down, it has over 1.5 million Jews living within its borders who have already said they dont feel threatened living there. In fact Israel has for some time offering these Iranian Jews incentives and free land to move to Irsrael but very few have done so.

SO when the media paints the Iranian regime as some sort of Jew killing Nazi reich, it should at least explain why this regime hasnt expelled or slaughtered the huge Jewish population already living in Iran.

All we hear is from the deluded right wing crackpots in Israel (like Netanyahus Likud cult) and the ignorant US right wing war cults.

I cant see a peaceful outcome to this mess - not with the current nutcases in power in Israel and in the USA.

The only thing preventing an attack on IRan is the support by other nations like Russia, China and BRICS interests

The US is stretched militarily anyway - and has larger domestic problems to contend with. An unporvoked attack on Iran is a razy course of action. Just like the illegal invasion of Iraq was (is)
 
ThePlayDrive said:
ChrisL said:
Government leaders and CNN aren't good sources. They will mislead you almost as much as Iran will. You should look at primary sources and actual research if you're genuinely interested in determining if Iran is a credible threat.
Click to expand...

They don't just make stuff up either! LOL! I always thought that, for the most part (with a few exceptions of course), the news does use reliable sources of information.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisL said:
Would we actually do that? And by then, it's already too late. People are dead.
Click to expand...
Well, I suspect we'd take out their nuclear weapons and then aim at other military and government targets. I suspect we would not need nukes for that which would minimize civilian casualties. If Iran used nukes, the United States would have the support of much of the population and the world to retaliate or aid in another state's retaliation. There would be little to no reason for the US to restrain.

And yeah, people would already be dead if Iran got the chance to strike first. However, that's where preemptive war comes in. With preemptive war, the US, Israel or another state would attack Iran when they see it getting its forces ready for an offensive attack. This would prevent people dying. Before that, there is preventive war like Iraq. I'm not in favor of that for obvious reasons.

However, the point is that, thus far, Iran has been rational in its restraint. There isn't reason to expect them to stop that.
 
Klown said:
Media and political interest groups are being very irresponsible and missleading on this matter.

If you look at Iran's demographical break down, it has over 1.5 million Jews living within its borders who have already said they dont feel threatened living there. In fact Israel has for some time offering these Iranian Jews incentives and free land to move to Irsrael but very few have done so.

SO when the media paints the Iranian regime as some sort of Jew killing Nazi reich, it should at least explain why this regime hasnt expelled or slaughtered the huge Jewish population already living in Iran.
Click to expand...

All we hear is from the deluded right wing crackpots in Israel (like Netanyahus Likud cult) and the ignorant US right wing war cults.

I cant see a peaceful outcome to this mess - not with the current nutcases in power in Israel and in the USA.
Click to expand...

And Iran. IMO, listening to Ahmadinejad at United Nations meetings and things, I don't think he's playing with a full deck. Also, we cannot forget about the protests that happened. Iran KILLS it's own people purposefully and coldly if they dare go against their government in any way.


The only thing preventing an attack on IRan is the support by other nations like Russia, China and BRICS interests
Click to expand...

I think the only thing they are preventing is successful sanctions.

The US is stretched militarily anyway - and has larger domestic problems to contend with. An unporvoked attack on Iran is a razy course of action. Just like the illegal invasion of Iraq was (is)
Click to expand...

Of course, I don't want any more wars either, unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I also don't think threats are worth going to war over, but I think something should be done. What? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
ThePlayDrive said:
If we send troops there, it will be just as big a mistake as sending troops to Iraq. Actually, it would be bigger because Iran is bigger and has a better military.

That said, Iran does make a lot of threats. Then again, a lot of states in history have made threats, but what every government must do is determine which threats are credible because if we take every threat as credible then we would enter wars that were unnecessary every other day and that would be stupid, expensive and sad for all the families who lose their sons and daughters for no good reason.

The problem with how the American government, mainstream media and much of the public treat Iran's threats is that all three tend to three all of Iran's threats as credible. The thing is, there isn't much reason to believe that their threats are credible. It's also worth noting that Iran consistently says that it is preparing itself to attack IF IT IS ATTACKED. That qualification waters down the threat even further. As far as I'm concerned, concerns about Iran are much ado about nothing.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think we should wait until it turns into WW3, before we do anything.
 
ChrisL said:
ThePlayDrive said:
They don't just make stuff up either! LOL! I always thought that, for the most part (with a few exceptions of course), the news does use reliable sources of information.
Click to expand...

Actually the Iranian government has never refused entry for any IAEA inspections of any of its nuclear power sites. It has signed the NNP treaty and has never said it wants nuclear weapons in its defense forces.

Now people can make their own judgements as to what they are up to. What we do know is that just down the road there is the state of Israel which hasnt signed the NNP, refuse entry to any inspections whatsoever of any of its military sites in Israel and neither confirms or denies the possession of nuclear weapons. And as everybody in the world knows, Israel has at least 220 nuclera warheads within its borders - almost all manufactured and desgined in the USA.

So if you were living in Iran and constantly hearing the War drums being belted by Israel and its partner the USA, what would you do?

This is why I prefer that the IRanian regime stop its nuclera program and remove any pretext of an attack. But I suspect that the Israel/US pact will find another reason to demonise nations that put their own national interests before western imperialist corporate profits.

We saw what happend to Gadaffi who would come under the GLobalist Banking regime and wanted to unify Africa under one currency.
Click to expand...
 
apdst said:
I agree. I think we should wait until it turns into WW3, before we do anything.
Click to expand...
Please don't talk to me until you learn how to actually discern what other posters said instead of twisting their words into whatever neanderthal nonsensical position you wanted them to have said.
 
What's Obama waiting for? How many times does Netanyahu need to tell him that it's time to start dropping bombs?
 
apdst said:
I agree. I think we should wait until it turns into WW3, before we do anything.
Click to expand...

I believe that was what NAZI Germany thinking was during the late 1930s

Becareful of what you wish

Why is it that almost all US citizens online are so trivial about attacking other nations that havent threatened or attacked them? WHy do they want war with defenseless nations all the time?

I notice that since WW2, the USA has covertly and overtly invaded 37 nations that has resulted in over 23 million civilians deaths.

And the major two features that almost of these nations had in common were, THey were defenseless and they didnt attack the USA

interesting how imperialist empires expand and how suddenly they evaporate
 
Klown said:
ChrisL said:
Actually the Iranian government has never refused entry for any IAEA inspections of any of its nuclear power sites. It has signed the NNP treaty and has never said it wants nuclear weapons in its defense forces.

Now people can make their own judgements as to what they are up to. What we do know is that just down the road there is the state of Israel which hasnt signed the NNP, refuse entry to any inspections whatsoever of any of its military sites in Israel and neither confirms or denies the possession of nuclear weapons. And as everybody in the world knows, Israel has at least 220 nuclera warheads within its borders - almost all manufactured and desgined in the USA.

So if you were living in Iran and constantly hearing the War drums being belted by Israel and its partner the USA, what would you do?

This is why I prefer that the IRanian regime stop its nuclera program and remove any pretext of an attack. But I suspect that the Israel/US pact will find another reason to demonise nations that put their own national interests before western imperialist corporate profits.

We saw what happend to Gadaffi who would come under the GLobalist Banking regime and wanted to unify Africa under one currency.
Click to expand...

Well put yourself in the shoes of Israel for a minute, being surrounded by hostile countries, always being attacked by rogue bombs. Granted, they both are like a couple of children when it comes to making any kind of agreements, and we (the US) are stuck playing daddy to try to prevent a WWIII.

Also, I don't think you're right about Iran being so cooperative with the inspectors.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom