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Decrying attack, protesters overtake Islamist group's HQ in Benghazi [W:57]

j-mac said:
Don't do that Ditto, I have more respect for you than that....Don't embarrass yourself like this...
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So, it "wouldn’t be surprising” (according to Dick Cheney) "if interrogation techniques authorized by President Bush provided critical intelligence that led to bin Laden’s death."

It wouldn't be surprising, and there is evidence for are two very different phrases. Further, consider the source: Cheney was one of the prime movers behind the invasion of Iraq and an adamant supporter of tor.. I mean "enhanced interrogation."
 
Dittohead not! said:
So, it "wouldn’t be surprising” (according to Dick Cheney) "if interrogation techniques authorized by President Bush provided critical intelligence that led to bin Laden’s death."

It wouldn't be surprising, and there is evidence for are two very different phrases. Further, consider the source: Cheney was one of the prime movers behind the invasion of Iraq and an adamant supporter of tor.. I mean "enhanced interrogation."
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I can not believe that you are discounting the work done by dedicated CIA, and Special Forces persons of the US Ditto.

You need to read this.

The path to Osama bin Laden’s death didn’t start with Obama - The Washington Post
 
j-mac said:
I can not believe that you are discounting the work done by dedicated CIA, and Special Forces persons of the US Ditto.

You need to read this.

The path to Osama bin Laden’s death didn’t start with Obama - The Washington Post
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Gosh, yet another opinion piece on the opinion page.

What hard evidence is there that Bin Laden's whereabouts were known before Obama took office? What hard evidence is there that interrogations authorized by Cheney/Bush actually led to his being killed?

and, if his whereabouts were known before Obama took office, why didn't Bush authorize a strike?

Sure, there is a lot of credit to be given: The people who found out where he was, the seals (especially the seals).

But Bin Laden should have been taken out soon after the attacks on the WTC, and the war in Iraq (which was not really related to the attack) should not have happened.

And yes, that's an opinion too.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Gosh, yet another opinion piece on the opinion page.

What hard evidence is there that Bin Laden's whereabouts were known before Obama took office? What hard evidence is there that interrogations authorized by Cheney/Bush actually led to his being killed?

and, if his whereabouts were known before Obama took office, why didn't Bush authorize a strike?

Sure, there is a lot of credit to be given: The people who found out where he was, the seals (especially the seals).

But Bin Laden should have been taken out soon after the attacks on the WTC, and the war in Iraq (which was not really related to the attack) should not have happened.

And yes, that's an opinion too.
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Ditto, you are hung up on the knowledge of Bin Laden's exact position before the attack. I don't think I said that the Bush administration said they knew where exactly he was before Obama took office, however, without the CIA finding out who the courier was for OBL, and the continuing work of the CIA to exploit that informant, and the information they had prior to Obama taking office, OBL would not have been found.

If you think otherwise, then tell me what extraordinary things the Obama administration did to uncover where he was? Instead, your playing any word game you can to deny that the Bush administration did positive things to find him.

This opinion piece you are so quick to dismiss, is from the head of that unit during the time when the information was gathered, so I think I'll take his opinion over your denial. :coffeepap:
 
j-mac said:
Ditto, you are hung up on the knowledge of Bin Laden's exact position before the attack. I don't think I said that the Bush administration said they knew where exactly he was before Obama took office, however, without the CIA finding out who the courier was for OBL, and the continuing work of the CIA to exploit that informant, and the information they had prior to Obama taking office, OBL would not have been found.

If you think otherwise, then tell me what extraordinary things the Obama administration did to uncover where he was? Instead, your playing any word game you can to deny that the Bush administration did positive things to find him.

This opinion piece you are so quick to dismiss, is from the head of that unit during the time when the information was gathered, so I think I'll take his opinion over your denial. :coffeepap:
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That's because his opinion matches yours, not because any hard evidence has been provided to show that finding Bin Laden had anything to do with the "enhanced interrogation" or anything else done three or four years before he was finally taken out.

I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong, necessarily, just that there is no evidence to support it.

As for Obama, if he were really a softie, apologizing to the radical Muslims, not being strong and all that, would he have given the OK to take out that weasel?
 
Dittohead not! said:
That's because his opinion matches yours, not because any hard evidence has been provided to show that finding Bin Laden had anything to do with the "enhanced interrogation" or anything else done three or four years before he was finally taken out.

I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong, necessarily, just that there is no evidence to support it.

As for Obama, if he were really a softie, apologizing to the radical Muslims, not being strong and all that, would he have given the OK to take out that weasel?
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Ofcourse he would have given the order...Can you imagine the backlash had Obama pulled a Clinton?
 
j-mac said:
Ofcourse he would have given the order...Can you imagine the backlash had Obama pulled a Clinton?
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Maybe, but there wasn't so much of a backlash when Bush declared that finding Bin Laden was not a concern of his.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Maybe, but there wasn't so much of a backlash when Bush declared that finding Bin Laden was not a concern of his.
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*sigh* must we constantly go back and rehash old tired talking points that have been proven wrong from liberals about this over and over? You don't like Bush....We get it! Good for you that he can't run again. If you think that Bush just gave up looking for OBL ever, then you need to just stop it already....That's silly.
 
j-mac said:
*sigh* must we constantly go back and rehash old tired talking points that have been proven wrong from liberals about this over and over? You don't like Bush....We get it! Good for you that he can't run again. If you think that Bush just gave up looking for OBL ever, then you need to just stop it already....That's silly.
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Well, he did say what I quoted, and he didn't find OBL in 8 years in office.

Mostly, I dislike bush for having started two wars, but then, that's a subject for another thread.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Well, he did say what I quoted
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Sure, out of context. Aren't you guy's the ones so into context?

and he didn't find OBL in 8 years in office.
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Wow, if your Lord, and Savior Obama is so great, then why'd it take him almost his entire first term?

Mostly, I dislike bush for having started two wars, but then, that's a subject for another thread.
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Yet, you continually are bringing it in here to deflect from your boy's failure as a President....Weak.....
 
j-mac said:
Sure, out of context. Aren't you guy's the ones so into context?



Wow, if your Lord, and Savior Obama is so great, then why'd it take him almost his entire first term?



Yet, you continually are bringing it in here to deflect from your boy's failure as a President....Weak.....
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out of context? Here's the speech, in context:

Bush: Truly not concerned about bin Laden (short version) - YouTube

"My boy"? I've made it pretty clear that I view Obama as Bush III. Check my avatar.

But, I thought we were discussing whether or not Bush was the one who made it possible to take out OBL? I haven't seen you make much of a case for that yet, just unsupported opinions.
 
Dittohead not! said:
out of context? Here's the speech, in context:

Bush: Truly not concerned about bin Laden (short version) - YouTube
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Ok, so what is so unclear about that? As the President, the CIC with not one, but two different countries that troops were committed to, sounds like Bush had delegated that small part of the mission to the CIA. Like any good CIC would do. Does that mean that America stopped looking for OBL? No. Does that mean that OBL wasn't a high priority to capture of kill? No. We as a country did continue to capture AQ members, and exploit their intel, right up to the day that the combined intel from the CIA, in the Bush, and Obama administrations led to the whereabouts of OBL, and he was killed. I think you do yourself, and history, a great dis service by failing to acknowledge the work of both Presidents in this endeavor.

"My boy"?
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Your what? I suggest you try as hard as you can to leave the liberal tactics of baiting aside in our conversation.

I've made it pretty clear that I view Obama as Bush III. Check my avatar.
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In some respects you are right about that, in the area of leaving much of the Bush doctrine in place in the WoT, except for one important nuance. And that is we no longer capture, or fully engage our enemy. That has led to less intel, less success, and more troops deaths in the Afghan theater.

But, I thought we were discussing whether or not Bush was the one who made it possible to take out OBL? I haven't seen you make much of a case for that yet, just unsupported opinions.
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I gave you the words of the head of the CIA unit in charge of interrogating captured AQ during the Bush Presidency. Like I said, I think he know slightly more about it than you do...Sorry.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, so what is so unclear about that? As the President, the CIC with not one, but two different countries that troops were committed to, sounds like Bush had delegated that small part of the mission to the CIA. Like any good CIC would do. Does that mean that America stopped looking for OBL? No. Does that mean that OBL wasn't a high priority to capture of kill? No. We as a country did continue to capture AQ members, and exploit their intel, right up to the day that the combined intel from the CIA, in the Bush, and Obama administrations led to the whereabouts of OBL, and he was killed. I think you do yourself, and history, a great dis service by failing to acknowledge the work of both Presidents in this endeavor.
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If that's so, and if the whereabouts of Bin Laden were known during the Bush Administration, then it shouldn't have taken three years to take him out.

j-mac said:
Your what? I suggest you try as hard as you can to leave the liberal tactics of baiting aside in our conversation.
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You're the one who referred to Obama as "my boy."





j-mac said:
In some respects you are right about that, in the area of leaving much of the Bush doctrine in place in the WoT, except for one important nuance. And that is we no longer capture, or fully engage our enemy. That has led to less intel, less success, and more troops deaths in the Afghan theater.
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Did we ever fully engage our enemy? The so called "war on terror" has been a fiasco since Rumsfeld said it would be over in six months or less. What we wound up with was a decade plus military intervention and nation building attempt.

We should not go to war unless the nation is fully behind it, and unless there is no alternative. The last time that happened was in 1941.

And then, when we do go to war, it has to be a total commitment and a total national effort.


j-mac said:
I gave you the words of the head of the CIA unit in charge of interrogating captured AQ during the Bush Presidency. Like I said, I think he know slightly more about it than you do...Sorry.
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He should have, of course, but then, this is the same CIA who said that Saddam Hussain was building a nuke.
 
Dittohead not! said:
If that's so, and if the whereabouts of Bin Laden were known during the Bush Administration, then it shouldn't have taken three years to take him out.
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Who said that? Please show me where I said that Bush knew where OBL was....

You're the one who referred to Obama as "my boy."
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My bad....Just got home from work...

Did we ever fully engage our enemy? The so called "war on terror" has been a fiasco since Rumsfeld said it would be over in six months or less. What we wound up with was a decade plus military intervention and nation building attempt.

We should not go to war unless the nation is fully behind it, and unless there is no alternative. The last time that happened was in 1941.

And then, when we do go to war, it has to be a total commitment and a total national effort.
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My my...I can almost hear the theme music for Patton playing in the background as I read this Ditto...Tell me sir, if that is the case, then what would have been the course for you on 9/12/01?

He should have, of course, but then, this is the same CIA who said that Saddam Hussain was building a nuke.
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Well, I can't help you then...You seem to have such dislike for Bush that it clouds your better judgement....Maybe over time that will subside, and you can approach it more clearly.
 
j-mac said:
Who said that? Please show me where I said that Bush knew where OBL was....
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How else are we to interpret statements like:

Without intel during the Bush years Obama would not only be appeasing the ME, but OBL would still be alive as well.
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j-mac said:
My bad....Just got home from work...
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That's OK. Hope your day went well.



j-mac said:
My my...I can almost hear the theme music for Patton playing in the background as I read this Ditto...Tell me sir, if that is the case, then what would have been the course for you on 9/12/01?
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Oh, I've posted that one many times. I'd have gone in to Afganistan and Pakistan with a multi national force of elite soldiers, taken out Bin Laden and his cockroaches, and then gone home. Had they been captured, rather than killed, I'd have built a dungeon in the cellar of the newly rebuild WTC to keep them in.



j-mac said:
Well, I can't help you then...You seem to have such dislike for Bush that it clouds your better judgement....Maybe over time that will subside, and you can approach it more clearly.
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Oh, that one wasn't Bush's fault. That one was faulty intelligence.
 
Dittohead not! said:
How else are we to interpret statements like:
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Instead of trying to interpret what you think they say, just read the statement for what it does say.

That's OK. Hope your day went well.
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Oh yeah...Just a short drive back to the terminal, then home for a round of lawn mowing, and pool vacuuming....Gotta love it.

Oh, I've posted that one many times. I'd have gone in to Afganistan and Pakistan with a multi national force of elite soldiers, taken out Bin Laden and his cockroaches, and then gone home. Had they been captured, rather than killed, I'd have built a dungeon in the cellar of the newly rebuild WTC to keep them in.
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We did go into Afghanistan, and supposedly are working with Pakistan, although I don't see what I would describe as cooperation out of the Pakistanis....Problem is, that once you put boots on the ground of a nuclear nation where the government may pay at least lip service to working with us, the population hates our guts, and you would be in a far worse war at this point I think.

Oh, that one wasn't Bush's fault. That one was faulty intelligence.
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On that at least we have agreement.
 
j-mac said:
Instead of trying to interpret what you think they say, just read the statement for what it does say.
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The statement says: "Without intel during the Bush years Obama would not only be appeasing the ME, but OBL would still be alive as well."

j-mac said:
Oh yeah...Just a short drive back to the terminal, then home for a round of lawn mowing, and pool vacuuming....Gotta love it.
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That doesn't sound too bad.
Drivers who run those big rigs for thousands of miles have a difficult job. You have to respect their skill, though. They have fewer accidents than drivers of autos and pickups on average.

j-mac said:
We did go into Afghanistan, and supposedly are working with Pakistan, although I don't see what I would describe as cooperation out of the Pakistanis....Problem is, that once you put boots on the ground of a nuclear nation where the government may pay at least lip service to working with us, the population hates our guts, and you would be in a far worse war at this point I think.
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It was the get Bin Laden and his cockroaches and leave part that we missed.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The statement says: "Without intel during the Bush years Obama would not only be appeasing the ME, but OBL would still be alive as well."
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yep...So you think that Obama's administration found OBL all on their own with no intel gathered, or policy set up by Bush? Well, let me use your standard then Ditto, Show me.

That doesn't sound too bad.
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Nope, I have it pretty good these days....I guess after 20 years behind the wheel you tend to move up in the world....heh, heh....

Drivers who run those big rigs for thousands of miles have a difficult job. You have to respect their skill, though. They have fewer accidents than drivers of autos and pickups on average.
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Thank you. I have like I said 20 years, over 3 million safe miles driven with no accidents {Knock on wood}, and only ever got one ticket in my driving career for a speed trap I didn't catch....That was 15 years ago....

It was the get Bin Laden and his cockroaches and leave part that we missed.
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But, but, would that have solved the problem?
 
j-mac said:
yep...So you think that Obama's administration found OBL all on their own with no intel gathered, or policy set up by Bush? Well, let me use your standard then Ditto, Show me.



Nope, I have it pretty good these days....I guess after 20 years behind the wheel you tend to move up in the world....heh, heh....



Thank you. I have like I said 20 years, over 3 million safe miles driven with no accidents {Knock on wood}, and only ever got one ticket in my driving career for a speed trap I didn't catch....That was 15 years ago....



But, but, would that have solved the problem?
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It may not have solved the problem, but then, what we actually did didn't solve the problem either and wound up costing a ton of money and thousands of lives, not to mention providing a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It may not have solved the problem, but then, what we actually did didn't solve the problem either and wound up costing a ton of money and thousands of lives, not to mention providing a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.
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Could've, Should've, Would've....But didn't....Crying over spilled milk is never productive...I am actually more interested in your response to this part...

So you think that Obama's administration found OBL all on their own with no intel gathered, or policy set up by Bush? Well, let me use your standard then Ditto, Show me.
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j-mac said:
Could've, Should've, Would've....But didn't....Crying over spilled milk is never productive...I am actually more interested in your response to this part...
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You did ask what I would have done. Yes, that is what we should have done, but didn't. That's most unfortunate.

Did t he Obama administration find OBL all on its own?
It would seem so. None of the previous administrations seem to have been able to find him. If the policies of the Bush administration were responsible for having found him it seems to me that he would have been found a lot sooner.

But, let's suppose you're right, and he had already been found by the Bush administration three years before he was taken out. The decision to actually do the deed was made by t he CIC in office at the time, the same CIC who has been accused of being soft on the "war on terror."

While Obama hasn't been t he best president, there are many things that he could be criticized for, it seems to me that being soft on terror is not one of them.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Did t he Obama administration find OBL all on its own?

It would seem so.
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Using your own standard what is your proof of this?

None of the previous administrations seem to have been able to find him. If the policies of the Bush administration were responsible for having found him it seems to me that he would have been found a lot sooner.
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You are making a fundamental mistake here IMHO. No one, here let me repeat....NO ONE said that Bush found OBL. The assertion being made is that intel gathered, and policies put into place by the Bush administration, and carried forward by the Obama administration all contributed to finding OBL's whereabouts. Please, let's get that straight.

But, let's suppose you're right, and he had already been found by the Bush administration three years before he was taken out...
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OH....MY.....GOD! I am not saying that the Bush administration 'found OBL'....I am saying that the intel gathered contributed, and the policies put in place and carried forward by Obama found OBL.

The decision to actually do the deed was made by t he CIC in office at the time, the same CIC who has been accused of being soft on the "war on terror."
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Tell me what potential President wouldn't have given the order to go given the same circumstances Repub, or Demo.

While Obama hasn't been t he best president, there are many things that he could be criticized for, it seems to me that being soft on terror is not one of them.
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Leadership is.
 
j-mac said:
Using your own standard what is your proof of this?



You are making a fundamental mistake here IMHO. No one, here let me repeat....NO ONE said that Bush found OBL. The assertion being made is that intel gathered, and policies put into place by the Bush administration, and carried forward by the Obama administration all contributed to finding OBL's whereabouts. Please, let's get that straight.




OH....MY.....GOD! I am not saying that the Bush administration 'found OBL'....I am saying that the intel gathered contributed, and the policies put in place and carried forward by Obama found OBL.



Tell me what potential President wouldn't have given the order to go given the same circumstances Repub, or Demo.



Leadership is.
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Oh.

Well, if you're saying that policies didn't change a whole lot due to the election of Obama, then we're in agreement. If policies put into place by the Bush Administration, then carried on by the Obama Administration were successful in finding Bin Laden, then you do have a point.

And so do I. The anti Obama assertion that he is "soft on terror" is just wrong.

To me, he looks a lot like my avatar, in fact, Bush III, or perhaps Obambush.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Oh.

Well, if you're saying that policies didn't change a whole lot due to the election of Obama, then we're in agreement. If policies put into place by the Bush Administration, then carried on by the Obama Administration were successful in finding Bin Laden, then you do have a point.
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Thank you.

And so do I. The anti Obama assertion that he is "soft on terror" is just wrong.

To me, he looks a lot like my avatar, in fact, Bush III, or perhaps Obambush.
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Maybe to some....But without the ability to lead.
 
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