• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Amish Beard-cutting Attacks Verdicts: Guilty

Hatuey said:
Sure and David Koresh was a crazy **** as demonstrated by his actions. You can blame the ATF all you want but in the end blame lies on the citizen who decided it was reasonable to lock himself, kids and women and a ****load of guns when they had federal agents at their door.
Click to expand...

you seem to forget that they were attacked for no reason. they did not do anything that justified that initial assault
 
TurtleDude said:
you seem to forget that they were attacked for no reason. they did not do anything that justified that initial assault
Click to expand...

Except the authorities had a legally obtained search warrant to inspect for illegal activity. How did Koresh react to a legal warrant? Well, we all know the story. This would have been a run of the mill inspection if Koresh hadn't gone full retard. :shrug:
 
joko104 said:
They could have arrested him when he came to town on their weapons charge. Arresting him wasn't the goal. Eliminating the "religious cult" was. They were 100% successful in that goal. Joe Biden's statement that the Branch Dravidians "committed suicide" - with photos of little child dead as so bent backward by muscle convolutions from the poison sprayed into the building is why I have always despised Joe Biden irregardless of any partisan consideration.

If they had arrested David Koresh on the weapon's charge even with the maximum he'd have been out on bond that day and even maximum sentence served within a year. Why not tell the actually charge on the warrant - used to kill the women, child and rest using military tanks?

But your message as a total partisan Democrat confirms my point. You, they, wanted Koresh and the cult destroyed, not to arrest him on a minor warrant.
But, then, OMG they were polygamists! Therefore they all needed to die!!!
Click to expand...

Tl/dr.

Quit complaining about a legally obtained search warrant being used against a nut bag like Koresh.
 
Well, not to derail the excellent discussion of the Branch Davidians above, in a nutshell, this is why the charges and convictions are appealing to me when normally, I do not approve of hate crime laws:

This was an instance where a religious leader had gained control of a group and used his power to punish former members for leaving. It seems fairly clear he had this little community in a box, so that people who wanted to be Amish and also wanted some relief from him were forced to move away. The beard and hair cuttings took place after the other Amish bishops chastised Mullet for his demands that his former members be shunned -- which is doubtless a terrible penalty for any Amish person.

The level of intimidation was clearly very high, and far more than even a cross burning on your front yard. Yet without this law, there'd have been very little the police could do, and most likely, not enough to deter Mullet.

I don't expect a suitable set of facts for such a charge will arise very often, but I am not upset that if it does, there's a legal basis for an adequate police response.
 
Hatuey said:
Except the authorities had a legally obtained search warrant to inspect for illegal activity. How did Koresh react to a legal warrant? Well, we all know the story. This would have been a run of the mill inspection if Koresh hadn't gone full retard. :shrug:
Click to expand...

for what-they got the warrant based on claims of child abuse-an area in which the ATF had no jurisdiction.

Why did the murder charges get flushed? because the Davidians were justified in killing or shooting at the ATF

btw the fury foreman said if they knew some statist judge was going to give those people way out of line far above the guideline sentences for some guns that MAY have existed the jury would have acquitted the survivors on ALL COUNTS
 
TurtleDude said:
for what-they got the warrant based on claims of child abuse-an area in which the ATF had no jurisdiction.
Click to expand...

Read the case again. They got the warrant on suspicion that Koresh was illegally modifying guns.

Why did the murder charges get flushed? because the Davidians were justified in killing or shooting at the ATF

btw the fury foreman said if they knew some statist judge was going to give those people way out of line far above the guideline sentences for some guns that MAY have existed the jury would have acquitted the survivors on ALL COUNTS
Click to expand...

Wait a minute, is your argument that law enforcement agencies can't obtain search warrants based on suspicion?
 
just goes to show that unconstitutional gun laws need to be erased.

the ATF created a spectacle to justify their paramilitary budget spending rather than picking Koresh up in town like they had before (and he had always cooperated)

if the ATF actions were proper the murder charges would have stuck
 
TurtleDude said:
just goes to show that unconstitutional gun laws need to be erased.

the ATF created a spectacle to justify their paramilitary budget spending rather than picking Koresh up in town like they had before (and he had always cooperated)

if the ATF actions were proper the murder charges would have stuck
Click to expand...

Oh stop derailing the argument. End of the story is simple: ATF agents had a lawful warrant, Koresh reacted as is expected from a retard with **** to hide. Normal people don't hole themselves up with a bunch of guns, kids and women. I mean sure, the ATF made some mistakes and could have been far more political about the situation but to pretend that Koresh was some law abiding citizen who made some tough decisions is ridiculous. I'd be more inclined to support his actions if he didn't already have a relevant history of crazy **** behind him.
 
Hatuey said:
Oh stop derailing the argument. End of the story is simple: ATF agents had a lawful warrant, Koresh reacted as is expected from a retard with **** to hide. Normal people don't hole themselves up with a bunch of guns, kids and women. I mean sure, the ATF made some mistakes and could have been far more political about the situation but to pretend that Koresh was some law abiding citizen who made some tough decisions is ridiculous. I'd be more inclined to support his actions if he didn't already have a relevant history of crazy **** behind him.
Click to expand...

If you were right, the slayings of the storm troopers would have resulted in murder convictions.

you probably think Sammy weaver deserved to be shot in the back or that Kevin Harris was wrong to shoot the coward that shot the boy in the back.

its funny how the left loves it when the government murders white gun owning whack jobs but they get so upset when say OWS assholes get maced for blocking a public right of way or when that Dem Mayor in Philly bombed the MOVE anarchists
 
TurtleDude said:
If you were right, the slayings of the storm troopers would have resulted in murder convictions.
Click to expand...

Yes - tell us again why the mistrial was declared? You should know. ;)

you probably think Sammy weaver deserved to be shot in the back or that Kevin Harris was wrong to shoot the coward that shot the boy in the back.

its funny how the left loves it when the government murders white gun owning whack jobs but they get so upset when say OWS assholes get maced for blocking a public right of way or when that Dem Mayor in Philly bombed the MOVE anarchists
Click to expand...

Wha? The left? I didn't know I was speaking for 'the left'. I'm speaking for myself. You should try that sometime. It works a lot better than non sequiturs.
 
Hatuey said:
Sure and David Koresh was a crazy **** as demonstrated by his actions. You can blame the ATF all you want but in the end blame lies on the citizen who decided it was reasonable to lock himself, kids and women and a ****load of guns when they had federal agents at their door.
Click to expand...

Agents weren't at the door, agents were shooting at them.
 
Pinkie said:
Well, not to derail the excellent discussion of the Branch Davidians above, in a nutshell, this is why the charges and convictions are appealing to me when normally, I do not approve of hate crime laws:

This was an instance where a religious leader had gained control of a group and used his power to punish former members for leaving. It seems fairly clear he had this little community in a box, so that people who wanted to be Amish and also wanted some relief from him were forced to move away. The beard and hair cuttings took place after the other Amish bishops chastised Mullet for his demands that his former members be shunned -- which is doubtless a terrible penalty for any Amish person.

The level of intimidation was clearly very high, and far more than even a cross burning on your front yard. Yet without this law, there'd have been very little the police could do, and most likely, not enough to deter Mullet.

I don't expect a suitable set of facts for such a charge will arise very often, but I am not upset that if it does, there's a legal basis for an adequate police response.
Click to expand...

They had plenty of regular charges including illegal imprisonment, kidnapping and assault, with asking the jury to rule they hated their form of religion.
 
joko104 said:
Agents weren't at the door, agents were shooting at them.
Click to expand...

Ah, another thread where joko104 makes stuff up. Well, that's the end of sensible discussion everyone. Thanks for coming.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom