• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Wis. judge strikes down law crippling public unions

How many bites at the apple they going to try to take. This judge should be yanked from the bench PDQ. Should be charges filed against him with the state judical ethics board.
It isn't unethical for a judge to issue a decision in a case that has been heard in his court. You seem to be a little confused as to how all this judicial stuff actually works.
 
Does this ruling mean that all employees who chose not to pay union dues will now have them deducted anyway against their wishes? Again? If so the unions are just creating more enemies.
Hmmm. As I understand relevant law, if you reside or function within the jurisdiction of the United States (thereby enjoying the benefits of its governance), you are liable for tax upon your income from whatever souirce derived regardless of your willingness to pay that tax. Selfish, greedy, free-rider wannabes need not apply. We have lovely prison cells waiting for those who are unable to get the point.
 
I was making sure I had the right judge-He was the first Hispanic judge appointed in that state. The important issue is his party and it appears that his party is DEMOCRAT which explains his RULING since the law is such that his ruling appears to be borderline

Trying to use the race card is silly Redress

The poster you are railing against DID NOT play the race card. You, on the other hand, clearly did. It never had any place in this discussion until you brought it up in post #9.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

I think that chances are good that this ruling will be overturned on appeal. It doesn't make sense that the state can grant rights to unions through legislation but then can't take them away through legislation.
That would depend on whether the original legislation was enacted for purposes of giving expression in context to rights that employees already had. The most recent decision notes that Gov. Walker's legislation arbitrarily creates a system of separate and unequal classes of workers. That would violate pre-existing rights. Opponents will need to find a way around that.
 
just as you have a right to free speech but if you say stuff in the work place I don't like I can fire you and that is not a constitutional violation
A lawyer would have known that it may or may not be.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

fascinating. why has no federal judge issued a similar ruling against the federal government, which currently does not allow it's employees to unionize?

are you claiming that it is illegal to join a Union and work for the US government at the same time?
 
in public sectors-unions have huge advantages. Why Because often the unions are the masters of those bargaining "against them"
So it's fine for a few million taxpayers to be represented by a handful of carefully chosen negotiators, but it ISN'T fine for a few thousand workers to be represented in the same way? Because there is a mystical "just something" about representing workers that makes their representatives "the masters"? I'll file that away under Visions of Sugar Plums.
 
So it's fine for a few million taxpayers to be represented by a handful of carefully chosen negotiators, but it ISN'T fine for a few thousand workers to be represented in the same way? Because there is a mystical "just something" about representing workers that makes their representatives "the masters"? I'll file that away under Visions of Sugar Plums.

In addition, the ability for say lawyers. doctors, pilots, engineers, actors etc etc, to form associations and unions that represent them is fine and adheres to fundamental democratic rights and freedoms. But when the average worker attempts to activate the same rights, they MUST be crushed - these communist traitors must be slaughtered for their un-corpocratic ideals.

And it is these average workers that require protection from the fascist corporate monster that prefers them to be engaged in a race to the bottom and to get whatever scraps are given to them

Appauling!
 
I was making sure I had the right judge-He was the first Hispanic judge appointed in that state.
Actually, he was the first Hispanic judge appointed in Dane County. There are 72 counties in the state of Wisconsin.
 
So it's fine for a few million taxpayers to be represented by a handful of carefully chosen negotiators, but it ISN'T fine for a few thousand workers to be represented in the same way? Because there is a mystical "just something" about representing workers that makes their representatives "the masters"? I'll file that away under Visions of Sugar Plums.

That is not a fair comparison. The workers always have the option of walking away. The government doesn't have that option. They are compelled to stay at the table.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

fascinating. why has no federal judge issued a similar ruling against the federal government, which currently does not allow it's employees to unionize?
Sheesh!!! There are about a hundred unions that either directly or through a local have exclusive recognition with departments and agencies of the federal government. Maybe fact-check something every now and then.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

some are, and some are barred from doing so. The DOJ, the TSA, and the military, for example.
Are correctional officers at federal prisons represented by a union, to your knowledge? And to your knowledge, some 45,000 TSA employees are NOT now represented by AFGE following a contest with NTEU over the summer for rights of representation, but in fact, they are.

Can I sue the federal government for damages as I have not been allowed to unionize?
If you have standing and can find a case and a court of jurisdiction, you can certainly file.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

Are correctional officers at federal prisons represented by a union, to your knowledge? And to your knowledge, some 45,000 TSA employees are NOT now represented by AFGE following a contest with NTEU over the summer for rights of representation, but in fact, they are.


If you have standing and can find a case and a court of jurisdiction, you can certainly file.

:) well I'm a federal employee, and it is definitely against the law for me to unionize.


which is a good thing, mind you.



But the point remains that federal workers have to have the governments' permission to unionize - they cannot do so against their employers will, and the federal government does indeed deny many of it's workers the ability to do so.
 
nah. the math is on the side of the GOP here, same with entitlement reform.
Math??? The people all agog over entitlement reform tend to be those who can't make change for a dollar. Social Security has a surplus of $2.8 trillion and there are people who actually think it is bankrupt. These folks are examples of financial and mathematical illiterates.
 
Math??? The people all agog over entitlement reform tend to be those who can't make change for a dollar. Social Security has a surplus of $2.8 trillion and there are people who actually think it is bankrupt.

oh wow. that's funny, the CBO says it's running a surplus and will do so now indefinitely. they must be all kinds of confused. you should write them a letter!
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

:) well I'm a federal employee, and it is definitely against the law for me to unionize.

a military recruit is hardly in the same status as a civilian employee.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

a military recruit is hardly in the same status as a civilian employee.

you are correct, but I am no recruit. :) and there are plenty of other federal employees that are not allowed to unionize.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

You should take a look at the Hatch Act. Federal workers by law are not allowed to do a lot of things in the political arena.
Well, they can't run as candidates in partisan elections, and they can't make political use of their official status or capacity in a range of ways. Anything else?

Constitutional rights are one thing. The special privileges granted to unions by statute are another.
No, they are often the very same thing with the latter providing the detailed expression of the former and more general principles.

The teacher's unions made it pretty clear that they can't survive without mandatory dues. The idea that a union has the constitutional right to collect dues from workers who are not their members is about as silly as it gets.
The free-rider problem is an economic issue, not one found in labor relations alone. In general, if you benefit, you have an obligation to pay. Silly whining doesn't remove that obligation. Laws providing fines and jail terms for turnstile-jumpers do not compromise Freedom & Liberty®, but rather contribute to the notion of ordered liberty basic to the operation of any society.
 
Last edited:
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

Well, they can't run as candidates in partisan elections, and they can't make political use of their official status or capacity in a range of ways. Anything else?

That's a serious restriction of rights as it is.

No, they are often the very same thing with the latter providing the detailed expression of the former and more general principles.

Really? What basic right is being upheld when unions can deduct dues from paychecks? When they can collect dues from workers who are not union members? When they can work in a closed shop?

The free-rider problem is an economic issue, not one found in labor relations alone. In general, if you benefit, you have an obligation to pay. Silly whining doesn't remove that obligation. Laws providing fines and jail terms for turnstile-jumpers do not compromise Freedom & Liberty®, but rather contribute to the notion of ordered liberty basic to the operation of any society.

And what if union membership is not a benefit? What if instead it is more like a blood sucking parasite attached to the ordinary worker? What if the "benefits" accrue mainly to senior members and union leadership? Does not the ordinary worker deserve the right to shake off the parasite?
 
That is not a fair comparison. The workers always have the option of walking away. The government doesn't have that option. They are compelled to stay at the table.
No, there are no chains on any of the people in any of the chairs during a negotiation. The question here is simply over negotiation and whether that should occur on anything resembling a level playing field. Some seem to view "workers" as mere and properly voiceless resources to be exploited rather than as stakeholders to be bargained with. Some seem as well not to recognize the substantial benefits in terms of certainty that amicable labor relations bring. We all have to hope that the people in those sorts of groups never come to be in charge of anything.
 
Re: Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Limiting Union Rights

well I'm a federal employee, and it is definitely against the law for me to unionize.
So without applying thought or reflection of any sort, you decided to assume that your personal circumstances were identical to those of untold numbers of other federal employees who are not in fact similarly situated? That was obviously a mistake.

But the point remains that federal workers have to have the governments' permission to unionize - they cannot do so against their employers will, and the federal government does indeed deny many of it's workers the ability to do so.
Anyone can form a union. Even you and your peers. The question will arise as to the whether your union can gain exclusive bargaining rights with your employer with respect to any actual issues. For instance, since many federal salaries are set by statute, it would be senseless even to seek to bargain wages with an executive branch official. He has no control over the matter either.
 
A lawyer would have known that it may or may not be.

still stuck on what my profession is. private entities are not the same as those acting under the color of state law
 
No, there are no chains on any of the people in any of the chairs during a negotiation. The question here is simply over negotiation and whether that should occur on anything resembling a level playing field. Some seem to view "workers" as mere and properly voiceless resources to be exploited rather than as stakeholders to be bargained with. Some seem as well not to recognize the substantial benefits in terms of certainty that amicable labor relations bring. We all have to hope that the people in those sorts of groups never come to be in charge of anything.

not literal chains, but there are , in fact, legal chains that bind the employer to that table... they are required to negotiate in good faith... not asked , required by law
 
oh wow. that's funny, the CBO says it's running a surplus and will do so now indefinitely. they must be all kinds of confused. you should write them a letter!
Did you mean deficit? Were you sure to select the CBO data that reflect Trust Fund revenue other than payroll tax receipts? Do you meanwhile think it is possible for any entity sitting on $2.8 trillion to be bankrupt? Do you understand that the Trust Fund balances were designed to return to zero, and that if or when they do, the system will not be remotely bankrupt?
 
Back
Top Bottom