Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate Benghazi leaves 4 dead, inc. U.S. Ambassador[W:939]

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

gunner said:

This is the biggest charge placed on European posters by most American users, on this board, and repeated to ad nauseam. They just cant believe it is possible to be critical of a Countries policy and not hate it's population....

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It is very possible to criticize a nation's policies and not its people. We all know this. But lets not pretend that Israel doesn't stand aside in this criticism game.

The entire globe is full of backwards abusive governments that slaughter their own people, threaten neighbors, and preach hatred. The entire Middle East is full of them. Yet, Israel, for some of you, seem to always take center stage no matter what. Even during the Cold War, with a Soviet Union bearing down on western Europe, Europeans chose to scrutinize Israel's policies. Even as the French were publicly torturing tens of thousands of Muslims in Tunisia in the 1950/1960s, Europeans were so intently interested in Israel's behaviors. Why is that? Oh....because of policies that most of you don't even know? They are so bad that Soviet nuclear missiles and Iranian nuclear ambitions are minor? Israeli policies are so decrepit that the policies throughout the rest of the region that call for the oppression and slaughter of tribal people within Islam go unnoticed and dismissed? With Iran constantly threatening and funding terrorists activity, Israel is the one under the microspcope? The first thing Israel haters do when something happens to Israelis is wait for a retaliation so as to jump all over bad behavior.

Jews, it would seem, are the ones not to get away with anything. How dare they be victims of Europe and now defend themselves against regional neighboring Muslims. The natural deflection amongst those who go out of there way to scrutinize Israel's policies are simply using it to display a disgust for Jews without saying it. Without Isreal, many of you would be more honest about what you really criticize. Most Americans on this board just don't let you get away with it. I mean..you are the continent that perfected their cleansings and genocides and sent them to create a home in the Middle East, right? Today you choose to be interested in the single Jewish nation on earth and pretend it's just about the policies? Nobody buys it.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

The violent religious Islamic jihad fundamentalists continue to engage in their war on freedom of speech and freedom of and from religion. They do so because what most endangers them is freedom of speech and freedom of and from religion - which poises danger of losing their power over their largely illiterate, uneducated essentially slaves following their raging messages of the foulest of bigotries, racism, sexism and essentially slavery - by which they enslave half a billion people to protect their own theocratic tyrannical power and wealth.

We can NOT yield to their war on freedom of speech and war on freedom of and from religion - a war they wage with deathly violence all over the world and have been doing so for decades.

Because those religious leaders call for violence and attacks against people, using their enslaved zombie followers as their soldiers, they and their HQs (mosques) are valid, legitimate military targets - as are communication centers upon which they issue their war communications (their radio, TV and newpaper outlets.

When Americans - individual, as a society and our government - should apologize for and try to suppress our - or anyone - expressing freedom of speech and freedom of religion is exactly never, not for a second - and our response to violence and threats of violence against those who would or do express their views on religion should be known. That response should be overwhelm, intense and without mercy massive military counter attack with even greater massive freedom of speech counter messaging.

Never, not for a second, should we yield in the slightest to the most violent, murderous and dangerous religious zealots war on freedom of/from religion and freedom of speech. That IS what the war is. It is a war with and against the murderous ignorance and bigotries they demand and war to expand. The attack was an act of war. Appeasement - ie apology or blame freedom of speech - is intolerable.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

MMC said:

What would that be? Killing the Innocent, the UnArmed. As they are afraid to come across those that have no Conscience? Those that wont play and will rip their heart out and eat it Right there in front of all their lil buddies?

Why do you think they run from such?

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Think your worst thoughts. Never be surprised how low a terrorist will stoop.

Paul

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

MSgt said:

First of all, the list is endless because everything is offensive to Muslims.

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Then we ignore the silly bastards, or respond in kind.

Second, one wouldn't go out of his way to paint "**** Jesus" on the side of a bus and park it at a church or "**** Darkie" on a bus and park it in the ghetto if they weren't expecting a rise, maybe even a violent retaliation from somebody.

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Doing such a thing is ignorant and so is any violent response. If a Muslim was to call Canadians "mothers to all dogs", for example, we would just laugh at them. We'd have to consider the source.

This person should except the responsibility of his obvious provocation, because nobody tuning in would be surprised with his bruises.

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No. It's a sticks and stones situation.

I don't see burning Qu'rans (Bibles) as a simple hapless display of freedom simply because the needless offense is against Muslims. And since this recent violent event wasn't entirely based on this video, there's no sense in adding it to the category. But the truth is that this "director" merely wanted to express his personal hatreds...not "whistle blow the religion" for which even the dumbest of authors have done a better educational job through books.

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I'll not defend the work but will defend his right to produce it. I don't need an explanation as to his motives, only that he be allowed to exercise his freedom of expression, no matter how ridiculous or offensive it may be.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Andalublue said:

I think the difference in our attitudes, and this is not remotely a general difference between European and American attitudes, is that I believe in the right of free speech tempered by sensitivity to others and a sense that everyone who exercises that right also has a responsability to weigh the possible consequences of saying what they wish to say. This seems to be something that people like you, Terry Jones, Geert Wilders, that film-maker refuse to accept. And, btw, no right is absolute.

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I don't recall seeing that line in the Constitution. "Congress shall make no law abridging free speech, but if people are not responsible then the law shall fall upon their shoulders." It is a fundamental right, and it is not abridged because it may cause offense. We accept the consequences of being a nation that protects free speech, and suffer together what may come, just as we do with all of our other rights.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

joko104 said:

Given the outrageous bigotry against African-Americans in that brief message of yours, I am confident you look for every excuse you can find to post and say "n.gger" as your term for African-Americans.

Your message is a god-damn f...king collection of racism and lies.

In fact, going into a ghetto (name one you've ever been in) and shouting "n..gger" will not get you killed. Doing so while being aggressive towards someone might result in a fight.

In fact, if a person was murdered "in a ghetto" after shouting "n..gger," the murderer would be prosecuted and convicted if proven.

Since you presume that all "ghettos" are occupied by"n..ggers" (your word and of course that is totally false - and where you appear to think black people belong too) - that racist presumption of yours also pointing to how grossly bigoted your message is. All ghettos are NOT African-American communities.

Finally, I can state with certainty that in fact you will not hear the word "n..gger" 1/1oth as often anywhere than that word is used - and shouted - within an African-American ghetto.

Sincerely,
Joko
Former African-American Ghetto resident

PS.
However, I fully agree there are such at thing as fighting words and believe in "jungle law" and that some words justify usage of violence. Ridiculing a religion is not such an instance.

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You prove my point. The word alone is enough to freak you out. Did you really leave the ghetto? Because your reactionary post proves how easy it is to irresponsibly incite violence. Did I just provoke you? I guess that's just my hapless irresponsible rights, huh?

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

MMC said:

Wesley Snipes thought he was Cool to.....especially when he said Screw paying taxes. Notice where his azz is.

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Yes he thought he could stand up against the IRS slavery machine, but like the rest of Americans who are FORCED to pay taxes even if they do not agree or even when some Americans cite religious beliefs that preclude them from participating in a system they do not believe in, the US government WILL step in with FORCE (make) anyone not SUBMITTING to bow down and pay or else!

Gotta love that freedom (even if its false freedom) and the fact that you are obligated to the government !

YOU ARE A SLAVE At that my friend is called reality,

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Andalublue said:

I believe in the right of free speech tempered by sensitivity to others and a sense that everyone who exercises that right also has a responsability to weigh the possible consequences of saying what they wish to say.

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Like I said, the Euro-pansified version of free speech.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Andalublue said:

I think the difference in our attitudes, and this is not remotely a general difference between European and American attitudes, is that I believe in the right of free speech tempered by sensitivity to others and a sense that everyone who exercises that right also has a responsability to weigh the possible consequences of saying what they wish to say. This seems to be something that people like you, Terry Jones, Geert Wilders, that film-maker refuse to accept. And, btw, no right is absolute.

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Yes, that is the difference to a large degree.

Europeans believe in "tempered" free speech (and we can see where that got them) whereas most Americans, as exemplified in their Constitution, believe in "untempered" free speech.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

mbig said:

Some good points but I Disagree with your conclusion.
There are PLENTY of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian videos on youtube made by people of other faiths, including Islam.
Even the Mainstream Arabic Press/Media/TV are Regularly filled with anti-semitca.
Who riots and kills?

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What conclusion do you disagree with? I honestly dont know what youre arguing against...

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Ikari said:

We've had things like "piss Christ" and other sorts of things. Since Christianity is the predominate religion in America, in America Christianity is going to take the brunt of the blow.



Rude for sure, likely to piss people off. However, if someone did do such a thing that would not be legitimate excuse for assault



Perhaps. And if the dude gets popped in the mouth once, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. If someone shoots him, or fires a missile into a building though, we may be looking for those who acted out in violence. Bruises do not quite equate to killing and blowing things up.



And people have been free to express their personal hatred for some time. There's no law against being dumb, and terrorist response isn't valid enough excuse to create one.

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Once again...it has nothing to do with "valid" or "excuse." This is life. Provoking a snake will get you bit. Worse, get somebody else bit while you taunt from behind cover. If you are going to exercise your right to incite and feed fire, then hang out with the fire and except the responsibility of your actions.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Who is Sam Bacile?

Mystery over identity of man behind film which accuses Mohammed of being 'a fraud, a pedophile and a womanizer' after no record of him is found

A search is on for the man behind the 'blasphemous' film that branded Mohammed a fraud, pedophile and a womaniser and sparked deadly protests after records apparently reveal he does not exist.

The producer, whose movie led to demonstrations that left the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other American officials dead on Tuesday, claimed he was an Israeli Jew named Sam Bacile and living in California.

But his identity began to crumble as it emerged Israeli authorities had no records of him being a citizen, and there were no property, phone, license or court records of Bacile in California.

Despite claiming he had spent $5 million on the film, he also has virtually no footprint in the Hollywood community, has no agent listed on IMDBPro and no credits on any film or TV production.

Steve Klein, a consultant for the film, told the Nationalthat Bacile is not Israeli or Jewish and is in fact working under a pseudonym - but he does not know the man's real name.


Read more: Who is Sam Bacile? Identity of man behind anti-Mohammed film crumbles as no records found | Mail Online

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Ben K. said:

What conclusion do you disagree with? I honestly dont know what youre arguing against...

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He produced a cartoon that showed how horribly offensive people are to Jews, Christians, whatever and how simply one has to be to incite murder and destruction from the Muslim world. He has a point.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

gunner said:

Think your worst thoughts. Never be surprised how low a terrorist will stoop.

Paul

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Just be sure never to provoke them, Paul, and you'll be okay,.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

SovereignElecto said:

Yes he thought he could stand up against the IRS slavery machine, but like the rest of Americans who are FORCED to pay taxes even if they do not agree or even when some Americans cite religious beliefs that preclude them from participating in a system they do not believe in, the US government WILL step in with FORCE (make) anyone not SUBMITTING to bow down and pay or else!

Gotta love that freedom (even if its false freedom) and the fact that you are obligated to the government !

YOU ARE A SLAVE At that my friend is called reality,

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Muslims should not have to pay tax in the US?

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

MSgt said:

He produced a cartoon that showed how horribly offensive people are to Jews, Christians, whatever and how simply one has to be to incite murder and destruction from the Muslim world. He has a point.

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He does. Im just not sure what he was replying to in my post.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

MSgt said:

Once again...it has nothing to do with "valid" or "excuse." This is life. Provoking a snake will get you bit. Worse, get somebody else bit while you taunt from behind cover. If you are going to exercise your right to incite and feed fire, then hang out with the fire and except the responsibility of your actions.

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So your opinion on freedom is that it should be tempered by mob rule.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

ecofarm said:

Like I said, the Euro-pansified version of free speech.

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Please refer to your constitution. You clearly dont understand it. There is no right protecting free speech from criticism, which is what andy is doing.

EDIT - not free speech the concept, people saying things and thus being criticised.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Sherman123 said:

Rights are not rights because of their function, we do not support free speech on the sole strut that we believe it serves societal utility, which it certainly does. We support it because we believe it is valuable in and of itself, that sovereignty over your words is one of the most precious things and it would be abhorrent to limit them no matter how horrendous or damaging the speech is. The United States has some of the most liberal views of free speech on the planet, perhaps the most liberal. The bar for prohibited speech is extremely high and is usually temporary and situational almost never a permanent prohibition (i.e. in the midst of an actual riot), this also extends to everything from our extremely strict view on libel and artistic expression (video game, film, book censorship which is much more prevalent abroad).

If you think your society cannot handle the price of that kind of freedom that is your right, ours can and we value it too strongly to let fundamentalists in Benghazi alter that. I have nothing but disdain for this Pastor Terry but I imagine most sincere patriots in this country no matter what end of the spectrum, would put an army between him and any group foreign or domestic that wanted to violently prevent his right to air his film.

Being a true progressive (not that I am) mean's more than just being in support of gay marriage, social justice, or abortion rights.

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I fully appreciate how dear Americans view free speech. It is something that has been made crystal clear to me on this board. That said, I'm more for the 'greater good'. No different to my total opposition to the fanatics that (although an extreme minority) attempted to protest Military home coming parades, in the UK. I fully agree it serves no one, and is simply promulgating hatred and is not conducive with the principles of a Western society. I have NO issue with banning such virile hate messages.

Paul

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

sharon said:

Who is Sam Bacile?

Read more: Who is Sam Bacile? Identity of man behind anti-Mohammed film crumbles as no records found | Mail Online

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That's gotta be the biggest bunch of incorrect and irrelevent crap that I've seen in a long time.

1. "whose movie led to demonstrations"

No, the movie did not cause anything. And the events discussed in this thread are not "demonstrations" that "left" the ambassador dead.

2. "~He spent 5 mil and it made no footprint!!"

hahaha Do you have any idea what the average hollywood movie costs?



Who cares who made the film, what difference does it make? And what happened to not jumping to conclusions?

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

gunner said:

Think your worst thoughts. Never be surprised how low a terrorist will stoop.

Paul

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Well when they talk about Americans being the Great Satan.....Ya know what they Say, Rights. When In ROME!!!!!

Ive never confused the message. Hatred Americans, Jews, Christians. Not necessarily in that order for the Day. The Rhetoric hasnt changed in 45 yrs or so.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

gunner said:

I fully appreciate how dear Americans view free speech. It is something that has been made crystal clear to me on this board. That said, I'm more for the 'greater good'. No different to my total opposition to the fanatics that (although an extreme minority) attempted to protest Military home coming parades, in the UK. I fully agree it serves no one, and is simply promulgating hatred and is not conducive with the principles of a Western society. I have NO issue with banning such virile hate messages.

Paul

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While accepting that I would point out the functional reasons for opposing any limitations like you describe on free speech is that such limitations and determinations are subjective. Once you have established the precedent it makes it easier to enact more restrictions in the name of societal utility. Thus why absolute prohibitions and rights are useful, they prevent or blunt such creeping policies. Many Americans would probably point to your CCTV system and police surveillance rights for example with shuddering horror.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Ben K. said:

Please refer to your constitution. You clearly dont understand it. There is no right protecting free speech from criticism, which is what andy is doing.

EDIT - not free speech the concept, people saying things and thus being criticised.

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Try to catch up, I'm pointing out the difference between Euro and US free speech legislation and the apologist attitude that is behind the Euro-wussy version of free speech. This has direct bearing on the "but you knew crazy terrorists would get angry" apologism rampant in this thread.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Ikari said:

So your opinion on freedom is that it should be tempered by mob rule.

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Sometimes.....only a hotter fire can be used to fight another fire.

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Grant said:

Just be sure never to provoke them, Paul, and you'll be okay,.

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Grant, remember, you're the 'keyboard warrior' I have actually been their on more than one occasion.

Paul