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Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate Benghazi leaves 4 dead, inc. U.S. Ambassador[W:939]

Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Jews, it would seem, are the ones not to get away with anything. How dare they be victims of Europe and now defend themselves against regional neighboring Muslims. The natural deflection amongst those who go out of there way to scrutinize Israel's policies are simply using it to display a disgust for Jews without saying it. Without Isreal, many of you would be more honest about what you really criticize. Most Americans on this board just don't let you get away with it. I mean..you are the continent that perfected their cleansings and genocides and sent them to create a home in the Middle East, right? Today you choose to be interested in the single Jewish nation on earth and pretend it's just about the policies? Nobody buys it.
Y'see, this is where sweeping generalisations and racial stereotyping can be identified on both sides of a dispute. You rightly abhor the lumping together of all Jews, making them responsible en masse for the actions of the Israeli state, and yet are quite happy to label all Europeans as having, "perfected their cleansings and genocides..." Three members of my family lost their lives fighting Nazism, and the total number of Europeans who lost their lives actively fighting against fascism outnumbers the number of Americans who died by about 50 to 1.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Sometimes.....only a hotter fire can be used to fight another fire.

Sounds like something someone from Chicago would say. But it certainly does not uphold freedom to subject the exercise of such to the irrational responses of idiots.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I don't recall seeing that line in the Constitution. "Congress shall make no law abridging free speech, but if people are not responsible then the law shall fall upon their shoulders." It is a fundamental right, and it is not abridged because it may cause offense. We accept the consequences of being a nation that protects free speech, and suffer together what may come, just as we do with all of our other rights.

Well, your constitution isn't necessarily a document I feel needs to dictate my actions or attitudes.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Sounds like something someone from Chicago would say. But it certainly does not uphold freedom to subject the exercise of such to the irrational responses of idiots.

Do you think Cicero thought the same with the Republic.....before Julius Ceasar removed his head from his shoulders?
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

You prove my point. The word alone is enough to freak you out. Did you really leave the ghetto? Because your reactionary post proves how easy it is to irresponsibly incite violence. Did I just provoke you? I guess that's just my hapless irresponsible rights, huh?

No, you did not. I did not demand you get off the forum, haven't since trolled and flamed you across the forum, retaliated in any way and ended on a note I think to some degree we agree upon.

Freedom of speech involves, inherently, provocation. If you say or print something and it provokes no one, you said nothing of consequence. At some levels, avoiding provocation in terms of values, beliefs and ideals is just cowardice, retreat and surrender.

Those violent religious zealots are the enemy of us, our values, our freedoms and endanger our lives. We should NEVER appease them. The film and 1,000 more like it is exactly how we should foremost fight them - information, truth, freedom of speech - similar to "Radio Free Europe" we waged against the oppressions of the USSR against their own people. To fight their words with overwhelming more and greater words. We should be overwhelming their radio and TV frequencies with counter presentations of messages of freedom, civil rights, human rights, equality, freedom of speech etc.

If they resort to violence we should also then respond with overwhelming greater violence. A war of words they wage and we should counter wage with greater force. If they make it also a violent war, we should also then counter with greater counter violence.

The President and others urging "shhhhh, be careful what you say or they might kill more people" is the absolutely WORSE response. First, that is a surrender and second it rewards them with exactly the concession they wanted. They wanted - and got - the US government to concede defeat to them - and it has.
 
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Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Try to catch up, I'm pointing out the difference between Euro and US free speech legislation and the apologist attitude that is behind the Euro-wussy version of free speech. This has direct bearing on the "but you knew crazy terrorists would get angry" apologism rampant in this thread.

I don't follow a debate between "locations" and "leans", just posters. I didn´t see Andy advocating jailing of the filmmaker for his expression.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

When roughly half the delgates at the National Convention express their desire to take "God" out of the platform (as it had been deliberately removed), and not recognize Jerusalem ...........

.......... its a Democrat thing. ........ ;)

But you see, that is not liberalism. Liberalism is about freedom and the value of the individual, and is not about religion, except in that we have the freedom to worship, or not, whatever we wish, or not. What we were seeing at the convention was a bunch of malcontents who are still rebelling against their parents, essentially. Listen, I am not religious in a traditional manner at all, but I understand why many people are, and it doesn't bother me in the least for people to express it, and even if I were atheistic, I would not demand that others avoid any mention of God in a gathering such as political conventions. To me, it just reeks of insecurity and juvenile defiance.

A good number of people who self-identify as liberals, have no real concept of what they are claiming to be. Americans have managed to turn what used to be a wonderful philosophy into just another flavor of authoritarianism. There are few actual liberals even left any more.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Grant, remember, you're the 'keyboard warrior' I have actually been their on more than one occasion.

Paul

Well heck then close this thread down and call it game over since you're the expert on it all since you where there on one or more occasion... rolls eyes
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

While accepting that I would point out the functional reasons for opposing any limitations like you describe on free speech is that such limitations and determinations are subjective. Once you have established the precedent it makes it easier to enact more restrictions in the name of societal utility. Thus why absolute prohibitions and rights are useful, they prevent or blunt such creeping policies
.

I agree. Hence it can be a double edged sword, and society need rely on a vigorous parliamentary and judicial system to ensure the infringement is in the most minuscule of examples. Hopefully subjectivity anchored in such a rigorous system we witness only temporal actions.

Many Americans would probably point to your CCTV system and police surveillance rights for example with shuddering horror.

As do many in the UK. Considering, on the whole, their ineffectiveness

Paul
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Do you think Cicero thought the same with the Republic.....before Julius Ceasar removed his head from his shoulders?

Giving into fear will leave us without our Republic.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I don't follow a commentary between locations and leans, just posters. I didn´t see Andy advocating jailing of the filmmaker for his expression.

You obviously are not getting my point. The "blame/fault the filmmaker" routine expressed herein is the basis of Europe's "blame words" free speech restrictions.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Well heck then close this thread down and call it game over since you're the expert on it all since you where there on one or more occasion... rolls eyes

As a 'newbie' you would not be privy to Grants posting style, so your misguided loyalty can be forgiven.

Paul
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Try to catch up, I'm pointing out the difference between Euro and US free speech legislation and the apologist attitude that is behind the Euro-wussy version of free speech. This has direct bearing on the "but you knew crazy terrorists would get angry" apologism rampant in this thread.
Well, to be fair to Ben, this is the first post in which free speech legislation has been mentioned. You seemed to be taking issue with my attitudes to free speech specifically. As far as I am aware of it, I have issue with US legislation on free speech, but nor am I aware of any great difference between the degree of free speech permitted in the European countries I am familiar with (UK, France, Spain, Ireland, Germany, NL) and that permitted in the US.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

You obviously are not getting my point. The "blame/fault the filmmaker" routine expressed herein is the basis of Europe's "blame words" free speech laws.

Which Andy didnt do in his original contribution to the discussion. He blamed the proximal actors and criticized the ****ty movie.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

I didn´t see Andy advocating jailing of the filmmaker for his expression.

That's because I didn't advocate any such thing, nor would I. Thanks Ben.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Grant, remember, you're the 'keyboard warrior' I have actually been their on more than one occasion.

Paul

You have been where?
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Giving into fear will leave us without our Republic.

Who said anything about giving into fear.....Since coming from Chicago, obviously I would only be talking about giving those that want to walk down that path of unrighteousness. That which they fear the most!
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

The "blame/fault the filmmaker" routine expressed herein
I refer you to Post 415, again.
is the basis of Europe's "blame words" free speech restrictions.
Which is what exactly? Can you be specific as to what restrictions on free speech are being imposed across Europe?
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

But you see, that is not liberalism. Liberalism is about freedom and the value of the individual, and is not about religion, except in that we have the freedom to worship, or not, whatever we wish, or not. What we were seeing at the convention was a bunch of malcontents who are still rebelling against their parents, essentially. Listen, I am not religious in a traditional manner at all, but I understand why many people are, and it doesn't bother me in the least for people to express it, and even if I were atheistic, I would not demand that others avoid any mention of God in a gathering such as political conventions. To me, it just reeks of insecurity and juvenile defiance.

A good number of people who self-identify as liberals, have no real concept of what they are claiming to be. Americans have managed to turn what used to be a wonderful philosophy into just another flavor of authoritarianism. There are few actual liberals even left any more.

VERY WELL PUT! :applaud
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Well, your constitution isn't necessarily a document I feel needs to dictate my actions or attitudes.

It only dictates your actions and attitudes in so far that you must obey its dictates and the laws that spring from it. If your location is Sierra Nevada I expect you to respect them in that regard.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Y'see, this is where sweeping generalisations and racial stereotyping can be identified on both sides of a dispute. You rightly abhor the lumping together of all Jews, making them responsible en masse for the actions of the Israeli state, and yet are quite happy to label all Europeans as having, "perfected their cleansings and genocides..." Three members of my family lost their lives fighting Nazism, and the total number of Europeans who lost their lives actively fighting against fascism outnumbers the number of Americans who died by about 50 to 1.

Perhaps that's because WWI and WWII were both European wars caused and elevated by Europeans.

I expect there were more American lives lost in the American civil war on American soil as well.

If you're trying to make the claim that Europeans made greater sacrifices than Americans did fighting a war of European creation on European soil then you probably have a point, though non-Europeans might wonder at the sense behind it.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Well, to be fair to Ben, this is the first post in which free speech legislation has been mentioned. You seemed to be taking issue with my attitudes to free speech specifically. As far as I am aware of it, I have issue with US legislation on free speech, but nor am I aware of any great difference between the degree of free speech permitted in the European countries I am familiar with (UK, France, Spain, Ireland, Germany, NL) and that permitted in the US.

There is significant difference in that many European countries have extensive laws that concern 'Hate Speech', for example the UK. As well as significantly more parameters and restrictions for the exercise of said speech.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Who said anything about giving into fear.....Since coming from Chicago, obviously I would only be talking about giving those that want to walk down that path of unrighteousness. That which they fear the most!

Your entire position of tempering exercise of rights with mob rule is giving into fear. Fear of reprisal. Oh don't exercise your rights because someone may get made and hurt you! Like it is somehow the fault of the person exercising their rights that someone else would act irrationally.

Yeah, free ain't safe. Never has been, never will be. I'll take the slight probabilities of harm over the guarantee of government force. And I won't let terrorists force our abdication of our freedom just because some of y'all fear reprisal. Molon Labe as they say.
 
Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

Which Andy didnt do in his original contribution to the discussion. He blamed the proximal actors and criticized the ****ty movie.

I feel that putting ANY "responsibility" (as Andy said is required in free speech) for the violence upon the filmmaker is BS.


That's because I didn't advocate any such thing, nor would I. Thanks Ben.

No one claimed that you advocated the jailing of the filmmaker. You're thanking someone for dispelling his own strawman. Big accomplishment there.
 
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Re: Libya: Assault on U.S. consulate in Benghazi leaves 4 dead, including U.S. Ambass

You have been where?

NO relevance. Move along Grant.

Paul
 
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