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GM Losing Up To $49,000 Per Volt

The Man said:
I'm surprised Obama doesn't pass a law requiring every American to buy a Volt, or pay a tax penalty.
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Why do you think he wants gas prices to go through the roof?

Remember when he said energy costs would, "necessarily have to skyrocket"? Or when he said he wanted to see gas at $7 per gallon?

oh, he wants a penalty for not having an Obama version of the Volkswagon.
 
You dont get much for $40K. It looks like an economy car and costs what a nice sedan does. Add its very limited range and that is all there really is to it.

It makes no economic sense, its a niche product.
 
Aberration said:
You dont get much for $40K. It looks like an economy car and costs what a nice sedan does. Add its very limited range and that is all there really is to it.

It makes no economic sense, its a niche product.
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It's priced too high for it's niche market, If GM could sell a volt (with profit) at say $22K,
and we still get the credit, they could not make them fast enough.
 
apdst said:
Why do you think he wants gas prices to go through the roof?

Remember when he said energy costs would, "necessarily have to skyrocket"? Or when he said he wanted to see gas at $7 per gallon?

...
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President Obamma did NOT say he wanted to see gas at $7 a gallon.

The rumor goes back to Chu before President Obama was elected and before Chu even had any ties with President Obama.

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in late 2008 -- before Obama was elected and at a point when Chu had no ties to Obama -- Chu told the newspaper that he favored raising gasoline taxes gradually over 15 years to coax consumers into buying fuel-efficient cars and discouraging sprawl.

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe," Chu said in an interview with the Journal in September 2008. The quote did not appear in print until December, when the Journal ran a story after news emerged that Chu was being tapped as energy secretary.
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PolitiFact | Gingrich said energy secretary advocated raising gas prices
 
longview said:
It's priced too high for it's niche market, If GM could sell a volt (with profit) at say $22K,
and we still get the credit, they could not make them fast enough.
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Problem is too much R&D went in to get what we got. Its not an economical solution.
 
Ughh, the volt was:
- European Car of the Year
- North American Car of the Year
- Motor Trend Car of the Yea
- and Automobile Magazine Automobile of the Year

Automotive experts see this as an achievement in innovation while the narrow minded want to bash it so they can make a loose political point. Good thing some of you weren't in charge of NASA when Apollo 1 caught fire.
 
pdog said:
Yes, which illustrates my point exactly in an apples to apples manner. Do I need to break down that a mach 3 costs about 10 bucks to make in order to show how I broke 750 million in R&D over 10,000 razors?

By the way, I have no idea how much it costs to make a Mach 3, but I figured who cares, everybody else is using whatever formula they like. As long as I got the math right it must be true right?
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No, because the point is still made. The volt is a failure, and it wouldnt be a big deal if the taxpayers werent subsidizing it. Get the govt out of GM, and no one will care.
 
pdog said:
Ughh, the volt was:
- European Car of the Year
- North American Car of the Year
- Motor Trend Car of the Yea
- and Automobile Magazine Automobile of the Year

Automotive experts see this as an achievement in innovation while the narrow minded want to bash it so they can make a loose political point. Good thing some of you weren't in charge of NASA when Apollo 1 caught fire.
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Automotive experts are as dumb and biased as the rest of us. A $60k car that you have to plug in for 10 hours to go 40 miles, then put gas in, is a stupid idea. Hybrid is a stupid idea outside the lab.
 
I don't buy this (the news that is). :)
 
The Pentagon is buying 1500 of them. Before the government is through they will buy enough of them to make them appear a 'great' product.
 
pdog said:
Ughh, the volt was:
- European Car of the Year
- North American Car of the Year
- Motor Trend Car of the Yea
- and Automobile Magazine Automobile of the Year

Automotive experts see this as an achievement in innovation while the narrow minded want to bash it so they can make a loose political point. Good thing some of you weren't in charge of NASA when Apollo 1 caught fire.
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Peruse the history of those awards.
 
pdog said:
Ughh, the volt was:
- European Car of the Year
- North American Car of the Year
- Motor Trend Car of the Yea
- and Automobile Magazine Automobile of the Year

Automotive experts see this as an achievement in innovation while the narrow minded want to bash it so they can make a loose political point. Good thing some of you weren't in charge of NASA when Apollo 1 caught fire.
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Own one? Know people that do? I know 3. 1 actually drives his occasionally. That pretty much is inline with surveys that say that only about 1/3 of current hybrid type cars will ever buy another one.
 
jonny5 said:
Automotive experts are as dumb and biased as the rest of us. A $60k car that you have to plug in for 10 hours to go 40 miles, then put gas in, is a stupid idea. Hybrid is a stupid idea outside the lab.
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Hybrids are a great idea, that's why many trains and ships are hybrids,
And when the car companies build a real one, it will be obvious.
unfortunately the car companies don't understand what they have, or how to apply it.
The first hybrid vehicle should be an all wheel drive 1 ton truck, with 4 hub motors.
Pull a big camper, horse trailer, or boat, and get 30 mpg.
The delta of 10 to 20 MPG would be significant enough to attract attention, and the price point
is already high.
 
longview said:
Hybrids are a great idea, that's why many trains and ships are hybrids,
And when the car companies build a real one, it will be obvious.
unfortunately the car companies don't understand what they have, or how to apply it.
The first hybrid vehicle should be an all wheel drive 1 ton truck, with 4 hub motors.
Pull a big camper, horse trailer, or boat, and get 30 mpg.
The delta of 10 to 20 MPG would be significant enough to attract attention, and the price point
is already high.
Click to expand...
Id love to see a hybrid that can do that. Unfortunately, I think the only way they are going to engineer a truck to get that kind of mileage consistently is by making it a diesel. And it would need significant range. To get to the lake I usually head to I have to travel about 300 miles round trip.
 
jonny5 said:
No, because the point is still made. The volt is a failure, and it wouldnt be a big deal if the taxpayers werent subsidizing it. Get the govt out of GM, and no one will care.
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If you want to bash the automotive bailout on it's own, be my guest. But nobody here or anybody else outside of GM gets to decide when the Volt program is over and they sure as hell aren't going to do it just 2 years in.
 
VanceMack said:
Id love to see a hybrid that can do that. Unfortunately, I think the only way they are going to engineer a truck to get that kind of mileage consistently is by making it a diesel. And it would need significant range. To get to the lake I usually head to I have to travel about 300 miles round trip.
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That's the beauty of of hybrid technology, the energy is stored in the form of liquid hydrocarbons.
And yes the power supply engine would likely be diesel.
What you would lose would be the transmission, and the engine big enough to start a load rolling, (or up the ramp)
Keep in mind with electric hub motors, you have 100% of the torque from a dead stop.
This is why the car companies are missing the boat, small cars do not leverage the advantages
of hybrid technology.
 
pdog said:
If you want to bash the automotive bailout on it's own, be my guest. But nobody here or anybody else outside of GM gets to decide when the Volt program is over and they sure as hell aren't going to do it just 2 years in.
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Why shouldnt we decide? We own it.
 
pdog said:
Ughh, the volt was:
- European Car of the Year
- North American Car of the Year
- Motor Trend Car of the Yea
- and Automobile Magazine Automobile of the Year

Automotive experts see this as an achievement in innovation while the narrow minded want to bash it so they can make a loose political point. Good thing some of you weren't in charge of NASA when Apollo 1 caught fire.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how innovative a product is if it is not economical.

It's one thing for automotive magazines to rave about the innovation of a car they're loaned. It's entirely another thing for an average family to plunk down the cost of a BMW for an entry level Chevy.
 
longview said:
Hybrids are a great idea, that's why many trains and ships are hybrids,
And when the car companies build a real one, it will be obvious.
unfortunately the car companies don't understand what they have, or how to apply it.
The first hybrid vehicle should be an all wheel drive 1 ton truck, with 4 hub motors.
Pull a big camper, horse trailer, or boat, and get 30 mpg.
The delta of 10 to 20 MPG would be significant enough to attract attention, and the price point
is already high.
Click to expand...

They do know what they have,

But the issue is tens of billions of dollars invested in the current technology ( non hybrid) most of which has been throughly developed and the costs amortized over millions of cars

The hybrid car you describe would require massive investments in new technology at a very high price point. Combined with a reluctant market ( consumers) it makes most companies take a slow route to the end process you describe

The Volt, Prius are truelly development vehicles, with the volt being the first one that can operate in series mode ( engine not being used to actually move the car but just provide the energy for the electric motor).

Audi e-tron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

audi might be the first to offer something similar to what you describe, or BMW with its i-3 or i-8 models.
 
Aberration said:
You dont get much for $40K. It looks like an economy car and costs what a nice sedan does. Add its very limited range and that is all there really is to it.

It makes no economic sense, its a niche product.
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first 40 miles on electricity which basically means that you don't ever use gas unless you do a road-trip. That's not economical? lol... whatever man.
 
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VanceMack said:
Own one? Know people that do? I know 3. 1 actually drives his occasionally. That pretty much is inline with surveys that say that only about 1/3 of current hybrid type cars will ever buy another one.
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I don't even compare the Volt with other hybrids. Hybrids we have seen thus far are engines that use electricity as a boost. The volt is an electric car that uses a gas generator to charge the batteries. So the Volt is and stays an electric car at all times. Solar grid-tie your house and you never pay for fuel again pretty much because it's first 40 miles are all electric. For 98% of the American population, that is more than their daily commutes. Imagine being able to tell OPEC to go **** themselves forever.

It's a really smart concept put into action. Price has to come down though. But economically, that's what happens when new tech becomes more widely adopted and mass production kicks in.
 
minnie616 said:
“The actual cost to build the Volt is estimated to be an additional $20,000 to $32,000 per vehicle (nice range estimate), according to Munro and the other industry consultants.”

So, given that the $1.2 billion $1.0 billion is all in a one-time development cost to begin an entirely new breed of automobile, and will be amortized over whatever the end result of production will be (perhaps in the hundreds of thousands), this figure has nothing to do with the ongoing cost of producing the Volt at all, and their statement that selling new Volts “probably isn’t a good thing for the automaker’s bottom line,” or that GM is “losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds” is total nonsense.

In actual fact according to their experts, GM may be making $7,000 to $19,000 for every new sale the company logs. That is the story they should have wrote.
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Good analysis. I find it amusing all of these "conservatives" who are supposed to be so "business minded" but don't even understand basic cost accounting.

I think looking at the article's comparison with the Chevy Cruz, the Volt's gasoline twin is very telling...

From the Reuters hit piece...

Volt's conventional gasoline-engine sister car, which Munro estimates (cost to build) at $12,000 to $15,000 per vehicle.

The Cruze has a starting sales price of $17,925.
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So, base model Cruz cost $12k to build and sells for $17,925, a $5,295 margin, (we don't have the price of the top of the line model, so we'll just use base model numbers)

Even the biased author of this POS hit piece tells us that the margin on a Volt is.... wait for it... $7,000 to $19,000!!!!

So, maybe GM should stop making the Cruz, and focus only on the Volt? Since the Volt is by a large margin, a more profitable car to build.


As for the R&D cost... That is a sunk cost. GM either expensed it when it was incurred, or is amortizing it over the life of the intangible asset. If it is being amortized over time, then it would fall below the EBITDA line on the financial statements... For all of you business minded "conservatives", EBITDA is Earnings before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization, and is widely used measure of efficiency, profitability and cashflow.

ignorance_2.jpg
 
poweRob said:
I don't even compare the Volt with other hybrids. Hybrids we have seen thus far are engines that use electricity as a boost. The volt is an electric car that uses a gas generator to charge the batteries. So the Volt is and stays an electric car at all times. Solar grid-tie your house and you never pay for fuel again pretty much because it's first 40 miles are all electric. For 98% of the American population, that is more than their daily commutes. Imagine being able to tell OPEC to go **** themselves forever.

It's a really smart concept put into action. Price has to come down though. But economically, that's what happens when new tech becomes more widely adopted and mass production kicks in.
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Its wonderful if it ever becomes viable. Frankly we can give OPEC the big kissoff if we would just utilize our own fuel reserves and be a little smarter about mass transit. I know people that own the Volt. 2 regret it. 1 drives it but honestly I believe I does it because he is the type that refuses to admit he has made a mistake.

We'll see how it plays out long term. It doesnt do anything for me but if it works for some people long term, happy days. And who knows where technology will take us.
 
Batteries don't charge themelves. A "hydrogen fuel cell" does not create energy from thin air. The emissions might not be at the tail-pipe, but they exist. If ones house runs on coal, then one is driving on coal and a very expensive battery (both economically and ecologically). I think fuel efficiency, through standard hybrid technology, is the way to go.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The hybrid car you describe would require massive investments in new technology at a very high price point. Combined with a reluctant market ( consumers) it makes most companies take a slow route to the end process you describe
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I think the technology is mostly there.
Turn Your Car Into a Plug-In Hybrid for $3,000 | Autopia | Wired.com
The chassis , suspensions, breaking, ect, all in place.
Use the electrical power plant and batteries,
to replace some the weight lost with the big engine and transmission,
tune the suspension, and drive.
 
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