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Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

jet57 said:
Here's the pay schedule for managament: http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/CompensationReport.pdf
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That is pretty high and does in no way prove your point.

And here's another on teachers: $47,000 Salary & Benefits
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That is first year teachers, not average.

And, here's another: Chicago Public School Salary Schedule | eHow.com
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That is not average. That is just a description of the different wage scales.

Just admit you were wrong. Why is it so hard for you? Instead of admitting you were wrong when I debunked your source, you turned around desperatly trying to find sources to prove your point, but they do not because your point is wrong. Teachers in Chicago earns 76K before adjustment and 71K after adjustment, not 54K or 47K. How Much Do Chicago Public School Teachers Make? « CBS Chicago
 
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jet57 said:
I did; what's the problem.
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The problem is that according to your link the average doctor salary in Chicago is 63K and walmart is 53K.

If you actually read the your own link, you would know it is the average wage of job offers, and the not average for teachers in Chicago.
 
lb0912cd20120910084954.jpg


Now the issue is Hiring back all the teachers that were fired. Then they went on to schools closing. Now Lewis is blaming the Charter Schools and that they are holding up the Negotiations. As reported on.....

Talks aimed at settling the Chicago teachers strike inched along Wednesday, while away from the bargaining table debate focused on how Mayor Rahm Emanuel's hand-picked school board would implement an anticipated spate of school closings took center stage.

As he spoke with reporters, negotiators for the Chicago Teachers Union and Chicago Public Schools met at the Chicago Hilton and Towers on Michigan Avenue for their third bargaining session since the strike began at midnight Sunday. Late Tuesday, the district presented a revised contract proposal to the union and asked for a detailed response. Under the district's proposal, teacher raises would be structured differently, as requested by the union; evaluations of tenured teachers during the first year could not result in dismissal; later evaluations could be appealed; and health insurance rates would hold steady if the union agreed to take part in a wellness program.

The new proposal also removes the district's ability to rescind raises because of an economic crisis. The board stripped teachers of a 4 percent raise last year, sparking union distrust of the mayor.

School officials said Lewis, who has led union negotiations, had not met with district negotiators as of early Wednesday evening. But Lewis, who was at the Hilton throughout the day, noted that officials from each side had met and said she reviewed the district's proposal.

Lewis said the issues of anticipated school closings and continued pace of charter school openings — charters are privately run, publicly funded schools that employ non-CTU teachers — are affecting negotiations, particularly the issue of recalling teachers laid off when schools are closed or consolidated.....snip~

Talks resume with striking Chicago teachers amid fiery rhetoric - Chicago Tribune
Chicago Tribune News<<<<<More Here, Way More!


One excuse after another. But it was all for the kids.....Right? Any reason why these meetings couldnt have been held at one of the 100s of Closed down Schools that sit there with no one in them? Is there any reason why these meetings should be taking place in the Hilton on Michigan Ave? Where I am sure it costs a pretty penny to borrow space and have others cater to run for the treats and goodies. Especially since CPS and the City are economically strapped. One would think people would be looking out for waste.

Not looking to spend more.....while talking about all these Solutions for the Kids!
rolleyes20.gif
 
I think the Chicago teacher strike is misguided. This is ultamately about educating children not a damn paycheck. So the students are gonna suffer greatly unless they have good caring parents that are homeschooling RIGHT NOW and not waiting for the doors to open back up like most of them are doing.

BUT I understand why the teachers are so upset, because they are given a gigantic workload and on top of that, they have NO CONTROL over their classrooms due to the deadbeat parents and lobbyists pitching fits about teachers disciplining their unruly monsters.

I get it teachers of Chicago, I feel your pain. You have limited power and resources to do your job and it's all because of the Liberal Psychos of America that condemn you. I get it.

I am Soooo glad I decided NOT to be a Math teacher and instead start my own business. the absolute BEST decision I ever made in my life.

Good luck with the strike Teachers but I can tell you right now, your efforts are fruitless, you should MOVE outta Chicago and find a job. don't wait around for the City Council or even Obama to come fix things. not gonna happen.

GET OUT NOW. You've been warned.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If I'm not mistaken, they already spend boat loads on CPS schools in the first place.
More than some other states, who outperform them.

Adding more money, won't solve the problem.
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I'm not arguing to spend more money, I'm just giving some examples of possible sources of funding for CPS. Some people are (understandably) saying that CPS is broke, and I'm attempting to temper their concerns.


Depends on the programs, curriculum and consultants.
I'm fine with decentralizing the the education system.

As long as the teachers are fine with decentralizing the union.
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I don't see how the two are connected besides that they both use the word 'decentralized'



Cities close schools for many reasons.
Atlanta public schools closed several because enrollment was down and it was a waste they needed to save on.
Of course teachers and parents complained and protested, but they would of done the same, had taxes been raised to cover the additional expense.

Charter schools are experiments into improving or reproducing current results in education, for less money.
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I completely understand closing down schools due to low enrollment to cut costs and think that's a good idea. Right now, I feel that it is time to study the charter schools we already have and decide whether they are actually better for students. I personally do not think that it is necessarily good to cut teacher salaries dramatically for equal results at a time when the middle class is already shrinking rapidly in this country. I also believe that people should be paid partly based on the market demands and partly on the importance of the service provided. But you and others are sure to disagree with me there and you are entitled to your opinion.

Teachers collectively bargain, so it's only natural that people hold them collectively responsible.
They are also, the most closest to these children in the pub school environment, aside from parents.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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I don't feel like you really addressed what I was saying. Nonetheless, I feel as an urban teacher I and my colleagues are being blamed for societies ills. No one is harping on teachers in wealthy suburban districts and their jobs are so much easier (in many respects, harder in others) than their urban counterparts. I feel like we are being punished for choosing to work in a challenging environment.

It's as if there were two factories, and one factory got all of the best silks, cottons, sewing machines, sharpest needles, etc., while the other got cheap polyester and yarn, and then the whole world was yelling at the workers of the second factory because their clothes weren't as nice as those from the first.

That being said, I want to emphasize that in my classroom, I refuse to pass the buck and do my very best with what is given to me. But I really wonder what you think could be done to raise the 60% graduation rate in Chicago?
 
Dickieboy said:
From this link:



and:



Is it your assertion that CPS teachers do not get raises or that the VAST majority of them are 'first year' thus preventing a substanative increase in the 'average salary'? OR is this just ANOTHER example of your failure to furnish a reliable link?
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Jet, as a Chicago teacher I have to tell you you are wrong. The 71-75k figures seem much more realistic. It DEFINITELY isn't 57k.
 
jet57 said:
I did; what's the problem.
Click to expand...


[h=2]"Average Teaching Positions Salaries[/h] The average salary for teaching positions jobs in Chicago, IL is $54,000. Average teaching positions salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits. This salary was calculated using the average salary for all jobs with the term "teaching positions" anywhere in the job listing."



The topic of discussion is average salaries for Chicago Public Union Teachers. Your link and the corresponding numbers have little or nothing to do with the topic.

You arguments and contention land somewhere between goofiness and trolling.
 
Chicago is a cesspool of illiterates. 6 out of 100 will attend college. 54% will quit before high school graduation. Teachers want mo' money as they now averag $75,000 annually to do nothing to educate. This is not about education, it is about making the union richer. There is no solution to Chicasgo that has as of 09/11/12, 360 MURDERS so far this year. How many of the murders were done by youths in gangs that quit school? I lived in that crime infested pis stye under R.J. Daley who was a dictator not a mayor. chicago is what it deserves to be.
 
nathanj63 said:
Dickieboy said:
From this link:

and:

Is it your assertion that CPS teachers do not get raises or that the VAST majority of them are 'first year' thus preventing a substanative increase in the 'average salary'? OR is this just ANOTHER example of your failure to furnish a reliable link?
Click to expand...

Jet, as a Chicago teacher I have to tell you you are wrong. The 71-75k figures seem much more realistic. It DEFINITELY isn't 57k.
Click to expand...

I'm not Jet and am offended. Did you fire before you aimed?
 
Camlon said:
The problem is that according to your link the average doctor salary in Chicago is 63K and walmart is 53K.

If you actually read the your own link, you would know it is the average wage of job offers, and the not average for teachers in Chicago.
Click to expand...

I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.

What this entire thing is predicated on Scott Walker's firing on fort Sumpter with respect to a concerted and intentional national business plan to derail public sector unions and change the pension and benefits systems that accompany them. That is to say, there is a concerted effort in this country to put an end to pensions systems as they havebeen understood by the middle class and move that money into the capital markets.

That's what's going on.

For those who are habitually anti-union; like youself et al here in the forum, anything to make those unions behave is what you fan: what's happening, and what unions have done for this country; and by default for you as an individual mean nothing to you.

Only when there is a strike do the issues matter to you. Now you all shout about the welfare of the children. When before, as the schools were closing, and parents were losing their jobs and society was slipping into the netherworld, none of you cared. Now it's a big deal?? Now that those same parents (many of whom happen to be teachers) are finally taking the bull by the horns (in the American fashion), you say "they can't do that", "they should have their pay and benefits cut and be brought down to the rest of the unfortunates". Those of you; whom by choice! have no say so whatsoever in thier own work places, and complain about some big ubicquitous hand called big Government that runs everything, and whom, by choice, wilfully live under the thumb of their apparently acknowledged maters, have some nerve chasting groups of American citizens acting through their own constitutional rights that stand up to said statism; that disallows thought and action.

Now, there's an analysis; that has been backed by reputable sources that absolutely refutes (your) perspective: (your) being rhetorical. All your side has offered is an opinion that is really based on nothng more than a prejudice as I've described it. I cannot take seriously the opinions of those, who quite frankly, offer up nothing credible, accompanied by any amount of knowledge, that emphatically states that what these teachers / labor is doing that is truly wrong, unAmerican, or harmful in anyway to our society. What (you) do, is shout about the economy. Anti-union people anad company negotiators always use the economy as a driving forcew: "we must remain competitive", is the mantra. Ya'know what? It is about the economy!! Demand side ecnomics have been whittled down take what we are prescribed, by a ubiquitous hand that always seems to know better than we do.

Well, they don't know better. And for "revolutionary (Tea Party etc) conservative Americans" to sit still and cow tow to that ubiquitous hand; because they have no wherewhithall to do anything about it, and as such are forced to act the part of the good Tory is outrageous. We're doing something about it!! So I suggest that (you) consider your own welfare in this and counting your blessings.
 
jet57 said:
I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.

What this entire thing is predicated on Scott Walker's firing on fort Sumpter with respect to a concerted and intentional national business plan to derail public sector unions and change the pension and benefits systems that accompany them. That is to say, there is a concerted effort in this country to put an end to pensions systems as they havebeen understood by the middle class and move that money into the capital markets.

That's what's going on.

For those who are habitually anti-union; like youself et al here in the forum, anything to make those unions behave is what you fan: what's happening, and what unions have done for this country; and by default for you as an individual mean nothing to you.

Only when there is a strike do the issues matter to you. Now you all shout about the welfare of the children. When before, as the schools were closing, and parents were losing their jobs and society was slipping into the netherworld, none of you cared. Now it's a big deal?? Now that those same parents (many of whom happen to be teachers) are finally taking the bull by the horns (in the American fashion), you say "they can't do that", "they should have their pay and benefits cut and be brought down to the rest of the unfortunates". Those of you; whom by choice! have no say so whatsoever in thier own work places, and complain about some big ubicquitous hand called big Government that runs everything, and whom, by choice, wilfully live under the thumb of their apparently acknowledged maters, have some nerve chasting groups of American citizens acting through their own constitutional rights that stand up to said statism; that disallows thought and action.

Now, there's an analysis; that has been backed by reputable sources that absolutely refutes (your) perspective: (your) being rhetorical. All your side has offered is an opinion that is really based on nothng more than a prejudice as I've described it. I cannot take seriously the opinions of those, who quite frankly, offer up nothing credible, accompanied by any amount of knowledge, that emphatically states that what these teachers / labor is doing that is truly wrong, unAmerican, or harmful in anyway to our society. What (you) do, is shout about the economy. Anti-union people anad company negotiators always use the economy as a driving forcew: "we must remain competitive", is the mantra. Ya'know what? It is about the economy!! Demand side ecnomics have been whittled down take what we are prescribed, by a ubiquitous hand that always seems to know better than we do.

Well, they don't know better. And for "revolutionary (Tea Party etc) conservative Americans" to sit still and cow tow to that ubiquitous hand; because they have no wherewhithall to do anything about it, and as such are forced to act the part of the good Tory is outrageous. We're doing something about it!! So I suggest that (you) consider your own welfare in this and counting your blessings.
Click to expand...

*standing ovation :peace
 
jet57 said:
I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.

What this entire thing is predicated on Scott Walker's firing on fort Sumpter with respect to a concerted and intentional national business plan to derail public sector unions and change the pension and benefits systems that accompany them. That is to say, there is a concerted effort in this country to put an end to pensions systems as they havebeen understood by the middle class and move that money into the capital markets.

That's what's going on.

For those who are habitually anti-union; like youself et al here in the forum, anything to make those unions behave is what you fan: what's happening, and what unions have done for this country; and by default for you as an individual mean nothing to you.

Only when there is a strike do the issues matter to you. Now you all shout about the welfare of the children. When before, as the schools were closing, and parents were losing their jobs and society was slipping into the netherworld, none of you cared. Now it's a big deal?? Now that those same parents (many of whom happen to be teachers) are finally taking the bull by the horns (in the American fashion), you say "they can't do that", "they should have their pay and benefits cut and be brought down to the rest of the unfortunates". Those of you; whom by choice! have no say so whatsoever in thier own work places, and complain about some big ubicquitous hand called big Government that runs everything, and whom, by choice, wilfully live under the thumb of their apparently acknowledged maters, have some nerve chasting groups of American citizens acting through their own constitutional rights that stand up to said statism; that disallows thought and action.

Now, there's an analysis; that has been backed by reputable sources that absolutely refutes (your) perspective: (your) being rhetorical. All your side has offered is an opinion that is really based on nothng more than a prejudice as I've described it. I cannot take seriously the opinions of those, who quite frankly, offer up nothing credible, accompanied by any amount of knowledge, that emphatically states that what these teachers / labor is doing that is truly wrong, unAmerican, or harmful in anyway to our society. What (you) do, is shout about the economy. Anti-union people anad company negotiators always use the economy as a driving forcew: "we must remain competitive", is the mantra. Ya'know what? It is about the economy!! Demand side ecnomics have been whittled down take what we are prescribed, by a ubiquitous hand that always seems to know better than we do.

Well, they don't know better. And for "revolutionary (Tea Party etc) conservative Americans" to sit still and cow tow to that ubiquitous hand; because they have no wherewhithall to do anything about it, and as such are forced to act the part of the good Tory is outrageous. We're doing something about it!! So I suggest that (you) consider your own welfare in this and counting your blessings.
Click to expand...

I consistently rail against unions, strike or no strike. Just ask around.
 
KevinKohler said:
I consistently rail against unions, strike or no strike. Just ask around.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you consistently particpate in your own economic and social demise. You are exactly the type of person who needs to reread my post and take it to heart.
 
jet57 said:
I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.
Click to expand...
And none of your "sources" has proved your point. Two of your links were not even relevant. If you actually looked at the search link Walmart, you would see that the job offers are management jobs. That is why they give $53K a year. The average in Walmart in nowhere close to $53K. I and many others have refuted your links and provided proper sources which show that teachers earn $76K and $71K after adjustment. If you want me to take you seriously, please admit you were wrong. Why is it so hard for you?

What this entire thing is predicated on Scott Walker's firing on fort Sumpter with respect to a concerted and intentional national business plan to derail public sector unions and change the pension and benefits systems that accompany them. That is to say, there is a concerted effort in this country to put an end to pensions systems as they havebeen understood by the middle class and move that money into the capital markets.
Click to expand...
That is probably for the better. Either people need to pay for their own pensions, or we need a standard system for all employees. Right now politicians are handing out pensions they will never be able to pay. We need to do something, if we want a pension system when we get older.

Only when there is a strike do the issues matter to you. Now you all shout about the welfare of the children. When before, as the schools were closing, and parents were losing their jobs and society was slipping into the netherworld, none of you cared. Now it's a big deal?? Now that those same parents (many of whom happen to be teachers) are finally taking the bull by the horns (in the American fashion), you say "they can't do that", "they should have their pay and benefits cut and be brought down to the rest of the unfortunates". Those of you; whom by choice! have no say so whatsoever in thier own work places, and complain about some big ubicquitous hand called big Government that runs everything, and whom, by choice, wilfully live under the thumb of their apparently acknowledged maters, have some nerve chasting groups of American citizens acting through their own constitutional rights that stand up to said statism; that disallows thought and action.
Click to expand...
I never cared about Chicago. I am just pointing out my view. Chicago can do whatever they want for my sake, I have no plans to live there. I only care about my home county Norway, New Zealand or any country that I would potentially move to. But I am quite sure if you asked me 1 year ago, I still would say teachers in Chicago earns too much.

I don't think you get why I support them getting lower wages. It has nothing to do with what I consider a fair wage, I don't care about that. It is not to compensate for my own life. I am happy with my life and don't complain about big government stopping me. Big government can sometimes help me. I don't care that other people earn more than I do. It is about fiscal stability. What I care about is letting wages be at market level, but more importantly I care about fiscal stability. You may not have noticed, but private sector pays for public sector. That means higher wages than necessary in public sector leads to higher taxes with worse public services. Why would I want to benefit a small group at the cost of everyone else?

Take a look at Greece. One of the things that you should notice is the massive wage inflation in the public sector. The public sector has an average salary that is twice the private sector. Then when the crisis occoured it was the private sector and not the public sector who ended up paying. Of course the money used to pay for the public sector dryed up, but no politicans dared to cut salaries by a significant amount for the public sector. Hence they chose to cut massively in health care, across the board cuts in pensions, educations, etc. They were cutting in critical public services for the public when they could have easily balanced the budget by cutting public sector salaries to where they belong.

I said it before. I don't really mind unions if they help poor people, but when they help rich people get richer, then screw them. Especially when they want tax payers to pay.

Now, there's an analysis; that has been backed by reputable sources that absolutely refutes (your) perspective:
Click to expand...
What analysis? Your weak point that I only care when they strike? However, I would say the exact same if they weren't striking. I want people to receive market wage.

(your) being rhetorical. All your side has offered is an opinion that is really based on nothng more than a prejudice as I've described it. I cannot take seriously the opinions of those, who quite frankly, offer up nothing credible, accompanied by any amount of knowledge, that emphatically states that what these teachers / labor is doing that is truly wrong, unAmerican, or harmful in anyway to our society. What (you) do, is shout about the economy. Anti-union people anad company negotiators always use the economy as a driving forcew: "we must remain competitive", is the mantra. Ya'know what? It is about the economy!! Demand side ecnomics have been whittled down take what we are prescribed, by a ubiquitous hand that always seems to know better than we do.

Well, they don't know better. And for "revolutionary (Tea Party etc) conservative Americans" to sit still and cow tow to that ubiquitous hand; because they have no wherewhithall to do anything about it, and as such are forced to act the part of the good Tory is outrageous. We're doing something about it!! So I suggest that (you) consider your own welfare in this and counting your blessings.
Click to expand...

One question, what do you want? Do you want all professions to negotiate massive wage rises every single year, and by extension US to have high inflation each year. We have tried that out, it didn't work very well. Or do you want some professions to get massive wage rises at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe you believe public sector should catch up with the financial elite, and by extension screw everyone who are not in the financial elite or public sector. Or maybe you think there is a bottomless well of money that we haven't found yet, so everyone can earn 75K USD per year with excellent benefits.

You are not doing squat, your trickle down economics does not work. Not just for tax reductions for the rich, but also for giving higher wages to public sector. By reducing wages in public sector we directly help the rest of the country who do not have to experience their public services cut, or experience tax increases.
 
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jet57 said:
I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. You should know that no floor walker or cashier at walmart is offered $53 K a year or anywhere close to that. What we're talking about here is averages. The anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople have asserted that Chicago teachers average $75 K a year. According to the teachers themselves, the independent sources that I have offered as proofs as well as my own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations, tells a different story.
Click to expand...

But the source YOU provided stated clearly that the $53k for a Walmart employee WAS AVERAGE...

I saw NO source that YOU provided where 'the teachers themselves' told 'a different story'. And I guess your 'own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations' was in CPS which would certainly be substanitave enough for credibility...right?

As to the rest of your rant...you got pwned and are using the typical diversion tactic...admit it...

or are you EVER wrong?
 
jet57 said:
I have provided three different sources (that I can remember here) that validate my assertion with respect to Chicago teacher's salaries. .
Click to expand...


Actually, no. Your links to "evidence/sources" have been total BS.
 
jet57 said:
Yeah, you consistently particpate in your own economic and social demise. You are exactly the type of person who needs to reread my post and take it to heart.
Click to expand...

No I don't. I consistently participate in a debate about worker equality.


Why do you not want all workers of the US to be equals? You either wants all workers be union, or you want inequality among workers. Which is it?
 
Camlon said:
And none of your "sources" has proved your point. Two of your links were not even relevant. If you actually looked at the search link Walmart, you would see that the job offers are management jobs. That is why they give $53K a year. The average in Walmart in nowhere close to $53K. I and many others have refuted your links and provided proper sources which show that teachers earn $76K and $71K after adjustment. If you want me to take you seriously, please admit you were wrong. Why is it so hard for you?


That is probably for the better. Either people need to pay for their own pensions, or we need a standard system for all employees. Right now politicians are handing out pensions they will never be able to pay. We need to do something, if we want a pension system when we get older.


I never cared about Chicago. I am just pointing out my view. Chicago can do whatever they want for my sake, I have no plans to live there. I only care about my home county Norway, New Zealand or any country that I would potentially move to. But I am quite sure if you asked me 1 year ago, I still would say teachers in Chicago earns too much.

I don't think you get why I support them getting lower wages. It has nothing to do with what I consider a fair wage, I don't care about that. It is not to compensate for my own life. I am happy with my life and don't complain about big government stopping me. Big government can sometimes help me. I don't care that other people earn more than I do. It is about fiscal stability. What I care about is letting wages be at market level, but more importantly I care about fiscal stability. You may not have noticed, but private sector pays for public sector. That means higher wages than necessary in public sector leads to higher taxes with worse public services. Why would I want to benefit a small group at the cost of everyone else?

Take a look at Greece. One of the things that you should notice is the massive wage inflation in the public sector. The public sector has an average salary that is twice the private sector. Then when the crisis occoured it was the private sector and not the public sector who ended up paying. Of course the money used to pay for the public sector dryed up, but no politicans dared to cut salaries by a significant amount for the public sector. Hence they chose to cut massively in health care, across the board cuts in pensions, educations, etc. They were cutting in critical public services for the public when they could have easily balanced the budget by cutting public sector salaries to where they belong.

I said it before. I don't really mind unions if they help poor people, but when they help rich people get richer, then screw them. Especially when they want tax payers to pay.


What analysis? Your weak point that I only care when they strike? However, I would say the exact same if they weren't striking. I want people to receive market wage.



One question, what do you want? Do you want all professions to negotiate massive wage rises every single year, and by extension US to have high inflation each year. We have tried that out, it didn't work very well. Or do you want some professions to get massive wage rises at the expense of everyone else. Or maybe you believe public sector should catch up with the financial elite, and by extension screw everyone who are not in the financial elite or public sector. Or maybe you think there is a bottomless well of money that we haven't found yet, so everyone can earn 75K USD per year with excellent benefits.

You are not doing squat, your trickle down economics does not work. Not just for tax reductions for the rich, but also for giving higher wages to public sector. By reducing wages in public sector we directly help the rest of the country who do not have to experience their public services cut, or experience tax increases.
Click to expand...


I read my sources very carefully. Of course those are walmart management jobs: I’ve already talked about that. Secondly, what you’re missing here is the consistent numbers that I keep turning up. That’s how one builds a case you know. All three sources are independent of one another and verify the fact that Chicago teacher’s do not make an average of $75 large a year.

As for pensions, you obviously don’t have one. So, the military personnel of this country should pay for their own pensions or just have a 401K that is susceptible to ”market fluctuations”; right? The pension system is this country is just fine. The trouble is that the Republicans have been hired to break it up.

In the US, “wages at market level” are referred to as commensurate for the cost of living. Stock market returns should never set the standard for “competitive wages” as business sees them. Wages are not a market. Wages are for services rendered: services that are weighed by the people performing the service; just like any business if you like. Gas stations do it all the time: go to the four corners in your neighborhood that has at least 3 gas stations and look at the prices . . . Prices are set all the time. This notion that it is somehow unfair or not right for a group of working people to do the same thing is just fallacious. And this notion that municipalities can’t sustain such costs is also fallacious: did you look at the Chicago pay schedule that I posted? Did you notice what managers are making? And, how much do you suppose a PhD or a double master’s is worth? Should perhaps immigrant labor be hired to simply be the adult in the room and read from a book? Now, they’ll work for almost nothing and they won’t form a union either. I don’t know how a union helps rich people get richer; I’ve never heard of that one before. And as I said: these teachers are receiving commensurate wages; the trouble is, the cost of living keeps going up and the only time people in the US even think about a proper education is when they’re forced to.

What do I want? I want for people who work to be able to negotiate what’s best for them at the time. I want for forces that are against collective bargaining to stop using the courts and the politicians to criminalize people who are negotiating their own welfare. If you have studied American history, then you will know that when American labor was its strongest, we didn’t go socialist, or communist. The sky didn’t fall and American industry grew by leaps and bounds. The whole era created the highest standard of living for the average person in the world. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that what the teachers in Chicago are doing is any way counter productive to the American experience. Also, it’s important to realize that the Chicago contract is all but settled; the union is very happy, all the kids and everybody else will be back in school by Monday or Tuesday; so . . .
 
Dickieboy said:
But the source YOU provided stated clearly that the $53k for a Walmart employee WAS AVERAGE...

I saw NO source that YOU provided where 'the teachers themselves' told 'a different story'. And I guess your 'own theirty years of experience in labor negotiations' was in CPS which would certainly be substanitave enough for credibility...right?

As to the rest of your rant...you got pwned and are using the typical diversion tactic...admit it...

or are you EVER wrong?
Click to expand...

As I said, I have produced consistent numbers that verify my argument.

CPS? No, I was a Teamster and worked very closely with ILWU and other federations for most of my adult life. Contract negotiations always have a similar dynamic that is predictable. And as I said, the teachers just about have this thing in the bag anyway.

And yes, when I'm wrong I admit it. How about you?
 
jet57 said:
As I said, I have produced consistent numbers that verify my argument.
Click to expand...

Yes, your sources do verify your argument but they are questionable at the very least. Others have posted sources from CPS, IIRC and other .gov/.org type sites that are typically much more reputable. Considering your sources to be valid is like taking golf tips from someone who has never broke 100.

CPS? No, I was a Teamster and worked very closely with ILWU and other federations for most of my adult life. Contract negotiations always have a similar dynamic that is predictable. And as I said, the teachers just about have this thing in the bag anyway.
Click to expand...
Since your experience is/was in the Teamsters, ILWU and other federations how does this substantiate the ‘tells a different story’ on the $75k a year you asserted in post #588. Or is it your supposition that based on your experience with ‘anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople’ and such they MUST be lying about the number?...never mind
And yes, when I'm wrong I admit it. How about you?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I haven’t noticed…as to me, I willfully admit debating with you is my mistake…carry on…:2wave:
 
Dickieboy said:
Yes, your sources do verify your argument but they are questionable at the very least. Others have posted sources from CPS, IIRC and other .gov/.org type sites that are typically much more reputable. Considering your sources to be valid is like taking golf tips from someone who has never broke 100.


Since your experience is/was in the Teamsters, ILWU and other federations how does this substantiate the ‘tells a different story’ on the $75k a year you asserted in post #588. Or is it your supposition that based on your experience with ‘anti-union people on this site, as well as the school board spokespeople’ and such they MUST be lying about the number?...never mind

Sorry, I haven’t noticed…as to me, I willfully admit debating with you is my mistake…carry on…:2wave:
Click to expand...

My sources are good; my argument is better, my experience is extstensive and if you can't hack: then bye to you.
 
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