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Chicago Teachers Strike 2012

haymarket said:
How do I do my part as a chef to produce a steak dinner when you as the owner of the restaurant only provide me with hamburger and a small stove with which to cook for an entire room of people.
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Oh, stop. :rofl
 
The main thing for which the teachers should be held accountable are results. The school system is entirely paid for by the public. They cannot share in any profits because they make none. The evaluations are really their only bargaining chip and they cannot cash it because by any reasonable measure they are failing. Every evaluation system is fought against, results are always disputed as a problem with the evaluation. Tenure is the most abused idea ever created. Time to decertify this union.
 
joko104 said:
Here's what seems the relevant facts - discounting the whatever-the-union-wants supporters and unions-are-always-wrong union haters.

1. The school district is hundreds of millions of dollars in the hole, with even more debt than that.
2. The average teacher's salary is around $75,000 - meaning with health and retirement benefits and perks it approaches $100,000 a year.
3. The teachers work 27 1/2 hours a week - with 12 weeks vacation including the entirety of the Christmas - New Years holiday.
4. No one in the private or public sector works so few of full time hours or has as much vacation.
5. The average salary for people of similar level of education in the area is not $75/$100K a year.
6. 1 out of 8 people in the area are unemployed or seriously under-employed - not counting those who have given up looking for a job.

In response to the school district saying teachers will have to start working 35 hours a week, the teachers want annual pay increases of approximately $11,000 over the next 4 years. They are now on strike for that pay raise.

The private sector would address this by giving notice of:
1. At the end of the week they will offer all teachers' positions as available to be permanently filled at the wages and benefits being offered by the city to the teachers.
2. For any position filled, the teacher that had the position has lost his/her job to the new hire permanent replacement.
3. There will be no back pay during the strike for those teachers who do later return if their position has not been filled.

Within 4 to 6 weeks, most positions would have been filled and those not would be filled by teachers flocking back to save their jobs - when in fact virtually none could find private sector jobs paying 1/3rd what they make now take-home as teachers. I suspect most would be working part-time as waitresses/waiters, fry cooks and Wal-Mart stockers $1.50 above minimum wage with no benefits whatsoever. They would figure that out quick enough as they tried to find jobs to make up the lost income during the strike.

However, because the mayor is a "pro-labor" Democrat he doesn't have that option. Given how crappy the Chicago educational system is, I think even the people of Chicago will have little sympathy for them.

Are any of my facts above inaccurate?
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Please show me where the average teacher's salary is $75,000 a year.
 
I bet the union doesn't push for a recall against the Democratic mayor like they did in Wisconsin, whatjathink?
 
jambalaya said:
The main thing for which the teachers should be held accountable are results. The school system is entirely paid for by the public. They cannot share in any profits because they make none. The evaluations are really their only bargaining chip and they cannot cash it because by any reasonable measure they are failing. Every evaluation system is fought against, results are always disputed as a problem with the evaluation. Tenure is the most abused idea ever created. Time to decertify this union.
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Moreover take it out of City Politics. Where the Mayor can appoint who he wants to run things.
 
joko104 said:
I bet the union doesn't push for a recall against the Democratic mayor like they did in Wisconsin, whatjathink?
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The conditions are waaaay different.
 
haymarket said:
How do I do my part as a chef to produce a steak dinner when you as the owner of the restaurant only provide me with hamburger and a small stove with which to cook for an entire room of people.
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That's not the analogy. How do you as chef end up keeping your job when you are supplied with steak as a raw material and you only serve hamburger to the people you contracted to serve?

Again, all this obfuscation of the issue is unnecessary. We've already established the pay is there and the results are not.
 
jet57 said:
Please show me where the average teacher's salary is $75,000 a year.
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Earnings of Educators in Chicago
In May 2009 the mean annual wage estimate for teachers in Chicago was $62,240, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics. Wage estimates for postsecondary teachers ranged from $40,810 to $102,300. Ironically, postsecondary economics teachers were at the low end of this spectrum. Their counterparts in health specialties occupied the high end. While there were only 260 positions available for economics teachers, there were 390 spots available for health specialties teachers. Elementary, middle and secondary school teachers had a mean annual earnings range between $47,350 and $74,530.

The mean annual statewide earnings for the teaching profession in Illinois came in at $57,000, according to May 2009 Bureau of Labor Statistics data. This is approximately 10 percent less than that of teachers working in Chicago. Postsecondary teachers had mean annual earnings of between $51,590 and $79,100. Both architecture and health specialties were the highest paying areas statewide. Teachers in elementary, middle and secondary schools had a mean annual earnings range of $45,380 to $67,960.

The Average Salary of a Teacher in Chicago | eHow.com


The CTU got its first written contract with the Board of Education in 1966, under the leadership of the late John Desmond:

His tenure was marked by three-cornered battles waged by the union, the Chicago Board of Education and the Illinois General Assembly over the Chicago school budget. In his six years in office starting salaries for teachers went from $5,500 to $9,570.....snip~

2010-2011: the CPS gives a starting salary of $50,577 for a first-year teacher with a bachelor's degree. But that's including the seven-percent "pension pickup," which comes from the Board of Education: it's compensation, obviously, but not money teachers get right now.

Since that doesn't seem to be regularly included in the salaries quoted by news reports, it's probably better for comparison to subtract it, which can easily be done with the more detailed tables provided by CPS (PDF).

If we do that, the starting salary is $47,628. The maximum, for a teacher with 20 years' experience and a doctorate, is $88,680 ($93,817 if you include the pension pickup). The average, according to the AP, is $69,000.


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Chicago Teacher Salaries: The Long View - The 312 - June 2011 - Chicago


Hard to believe it began in 1966.
 
Grim17 said:
Collective bargaining is fine in the private sector, but in the public sector it is just plain wrong.

I sure hope those poor teachers slaving away at 75k per year, get their raises so they can stop eating dog food and foraging for food out of dumpsters.
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I was going to write a response defending their salaries but I honestly don't even think that's the issue. That same logic is never applied when asking millionaires for a tax increase in order to close down deficits....instead it's class warfare to ask people that make exponentially more money to take a cut in order to close budget deficits.

Things like Citizens United which allow rich individuals to have a higher than 1 vote say so in how our country is run is fine in your view.

But when middle class teachers collectively bargain to have a voice? When they get angry that deficits are closed on their back? Time to pull out the tar and feathers! I think you really have to submerse yourself in propoganda in order to have such a distorted view.
 
iliveonramen said:
I was going to write a response defending their salaries but I honestly don't even think that's the issue. That same logic is never applied when asking millionaires for a tax increase in order to close down deficits....instead it's class warfare to ask people that make exponentially more money to take a cut in order to close budget deficits.

Things like Citizens United which allow rich individuals to have a higher than 1 vote say so in how our country is run is fine in your view.

But when middle class teachers collectively bargain to have a voice? When they get angry that deficits are closed on their back? Time to pull out the tar and feathers! I think you really have to submerse yourself in propoganda in order to have such a distorted view.
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Why do some Democrats think ever issue should be addressed with "Don't you just hate rich people!"

This school issue has nothing to do with rich people, unless you want those remaining to move out of Chicago.
 
joko104 said:
Why do some Democrats think ever issue should be addressed with "Don't you just hate rich people!"

This school issue has nothing to do with rich people, unless you want those remaining to move out of Chicago.
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Buisness is and has been leaving over all the taxes. One of the higest Corporate taxes and Highest costs of living in the Nation. Here is another problem that is Unique of Illinois and many also believe part of the problem.....

People in Illinois like to complain about big government. But maybe there's a bigger problem: little government. Lots and lots of them, from municipalities to townships to special districts to school districts. Every five years the Census does a census of governments, and Illinois ranks first, as it always does, with 6,968, over 2,000 more than the runner-up, Pennsylvania. And we don't just have more governments than anywhere else; we have more of just about every kind of government the Census surveys. 2007 was the last year that a detailed breakdown was available.....snip~

Illinois: Land of 7,000 Governments - The 312 - September 2012 - Chicago

governments-map.jpg


Dark green is the highest tier, 51-538 governments and public school systems by county. Plenty of other states have most of their counties in that tier, but we're distinguished by the number of counties among states with lots of governments per county
 
joko104 said:
Why do some Democrats think ever issue should be addressed with "Don't you just hate rich people!"

This school issue has nothing to do with rich people, unless you want those remaining to move out of Chicago.
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Actually I brought up collective bargaining. It was Grim that made the play of "poor teachers only making X amount a year". If sacrafice is supposedly tied to how much you make and whether you can afford a haircut that reasoning should apply in all situations.

Rich people won't be leaving Chicago because of tax rates.....if that's the case you'd see a huge amount of rich in Alabama and Mississippi instead of NY, California, Illinois.
 
clownboy said:
That's not the analogy. How do you as chef end up keeping your job when you are supplied with steak as a raw material and you only serve hamburger to the people you contracted to serve?

Again, all this obfuscation of the issue is unnecessary. We've already established the pay is there and the results are not.
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And there is the rub. A teacher can only work with the students they are given. In my high school where I taught, we gave all incoming ninth graders a math test to see where they were according to grade level skills so they could take mandated Algebra I. In an average class of 35 kids, the scores ranged all the way from second grade to tenth grade. The distribution was far from even with the average being around fifth grade. The vast vast vast majority of the 35 were not anywhere near grade level in basic arithmetic skills needed to handle Algebra.

But now the administration says - teach them Algebra... here is your classroom .... here are your books ... here is your paycheck for doing this job.

What is missing from the recipe?
 
iliveonramen said:
Actually I brought up collective bargaining. It was Grim that made the play of "poor teachers only making X amount a year". If sacrafice is supposedly tied to how much you make and whether you can afford a haircut that reasoning should apply in all situations.

Rich people won't be leaving Chicago because of tax rates.....if that's the case you'd see a huge amount of rich in Alabama and Mississippi instead of NY, California, Illinois.
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They move to the suburbs out of the inner cities. Its used to be called "white flight" when racial motivated. Now it is for taxes, less regulations if a business and for better schools. And there are LOTS of rich in Alabama and Mississippi. But they also stay out of the spotlight.
 
haymarket said:
And there is the rub. A teacher can only work with the students they are given. In my high school where I taught, we gave all incoming ninth graders a math test to see where they were according to grade level skills so they could take mandated Algebra I. In an average class of 35 kids, the scores ranged all the way from second grade to tenth grade. The distribution was far from even with the average being around fifth grade. The vast vast vast majority of the 35 were not anywhere near grade level in basic arithmetic skills needed to handle Algebra.

But now the administration says - teach them Algebra... here is your classroom .... here are your books ... here is your paycheck for doing this job.

What is missing from the recipe?
Click to expand...


THat is what is missing in this discussion. How much of the Chicago School District budget goes to administrators/administration and do they or teachers make teaching decisions? What is the average salary of the administrators and their staff? How much did their budgets go up in the last 10 years?
 
MaggieD said:
It's all over the internet -- the school system isn't as transparent as it should be, but $75,000 is pretty close. Here's one source for $73,486 average: CPS teachers say more than dollars and cents at stake in next contract
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Here's some information that disputes that number and shows that the average salary is $54,000 a year. What you're talking about is an hourly package that includes all the costs.

City Of Chicago School District 299 Average Teacher Salary & How to Become a Teacher

Average Teacher Salary in City Of Chicago School District 299

The average teacher salary in City Of Chicago School District 299 is $54,908.
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haymarket said:
And there is the rub. A teacher can only work with the students they are given. In my high school where I taught, we gave all incoming ninth graders a math test to see where they were according to grade level skills so they could take mandated Algebra I. In an average class of 35 kids, the scores ranged all the way from second grade to tenth grade. The distribution was far from even with the average being around fifth grade. The vast vast vast majority of the 35 were not anywhere near grade level in basic arithmetic skills needed to handle Algebra.

But now the administration says - teach them Algebra... here is your classroom .... here are your books ... here is your paycheck for doing this job.

What is missing from the recipe?
Click to expand...

And that is exactly the kind of travesty the unions should be addressing . . . if it's really about the children. And we both know it's not. They are merely the pawns used as a means to an end.
 
MMC said:
Earnings of Educators in Chicago
In May 2009 the mean annual wage estimate for teachers in Chicago was $62,240, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics. Wage estimates for postsecondary teachers ranged from $40,810 to $102,300. Ironically, postsecondary economics teachers were at the low end of this spectrum. Their counterparts in health specialties occupied the high end. While there were only 260 positions available for economics teachers, there were 390 spots available for health specialties teachers. Elementary, middle and secondary school teachers had a mean annual earnings range between $47,350 and $74,530.

The mean annual statewide earnings for the teaching profession in Illinois came in at $57,000, according to May 2009 Bureau of Labor Statistics data. This is approximately 10 percent less than that of teachers working in Chicago. Postsecondary teachers had mean annual earnings of between $51,590 and $79,100. Both architecture and health specialties were the highest paying areas statewide. Teachers in elementary, middle and secondary schools had a mean annual earnings range of $45,380 to $67,960.

The Average Salary of a Teacher in Chicago | eHow.com


The CTU got its first written contract with the Board of Education in 1966, under the leadership of the late John Desmond:

His tenure was marked by three-cornered battles waged by the union, the Chicago Board of Education and the Illinois General Assembly over the Chicago school budget. In his six years in office starting salaries for teachers went from $5,500 to $9,570.....snip~

2010-2011: the CPS gives a starting salary of $50,577 for a first-year teacher with a bachelor's degree. But that's including the seven-percent "pension pickup," which comes from the Board of Education: it's compensation, obviously, but not money teachers get right now.

Since that doesn't seem to be regularly included in the salaries quoted by news reports, it's probably better for comparison to subtract it, which can easily be done with the more detailed tables provided by CPS (PDF).

If we do that, the starting salary is $47,628. The maximum, for a teacher with 20 years' experience and a doctorate, is $88,680 ($93,817 if you include the pension pickup). The average, according to the AP, is $69,000.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chicago Teacher Salaries: The Long View - The 312 - June 2011 - Chicago


Hard to believe it began in 1966.
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Ditto char/10

Here's another; http://www.employmentspot.com/employment-articles/teacher-salaries-by-state/

According to CBSalary.com, the average teacher salary by city was as follows:
•Springfield, IL – $48,015
•Chicago, IL – $53,713
•Atlanta, GA – $35,903
•Savannah, GA – $25,008
•Orlando, FL – $31,684
•Tampa, FL – $36,630
•Miami, FL – $34,501
 
MMC said:
Earnings of Educators in Chicago
In May 2009 the mean annual wage estimate for teachers in Chicago was $62,240, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics. Wage estimates for postsecondary teachers ranged from $40,810 to $102,300. Ironically, postsecondary economics teachers were at the low end of this spectrum. Their counterparts in health specialties occupied the high end. While there were only 260 positions available for economics teachers, there were 390 spots available for health specialties teachers. Elementary, middle and secondary school teachers had a mean annual earnings range between $47,350 and $74,530.

The mean annual statewide earnings for the teaching profession in Illinois came in at $57,000, according to May 2009 Bureau of Labor Statistics data. This is approximately 10 percent less than that of teachers working in Chicago. Postsecondary teachers had mean annual earnings of between $51,590 and $79,100. Both architecture and health specialties were the highest paying areas statewide. Teachers in elementary, middle and secondary schools had a mean annual earnings range of $45,380 to $67,960.

The Average Salary of a Teacher in Chicago | eHow.com


The CTU got its first written contract with the Board of Education in 1966, under the leadership of the late John Desmond:

His tenure was marked by three-cornered battles waged by the union, the Chicago Board of Education and the Illinois General Assembly over the Chicago school budget. In his six years in office starting salaries for teachers went from $5,500 to $9,570.....snip~

2010-2011: the CPS gives a starting salary of $50,577 for a first-year teacher with a bachelor's degree. But that's including the seven-percent "pension pickup," which comes from the Board of Education: it's compensation, obviously, but not money teachers get right now.

Since that doesn't seem to be regularly included in the salaries quoted by news reports, it's probably better for comparison to subtract it, which can easily be done with the more detailed tables provided by CPS (PDF).

If we do that, the starting salary is $47,628. The maximum, for a teacher with 20 years' experience and a doctorate, is $88,680 ($93,817 if you include the pension pickup). The average, according to the AP, is $69,000.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chicago Teacher Salaries: The Long View - The 312 - June 2011 - Chicago


Hard to believe it began in 1966.
Click to expand...

2bump.gif
 
haymarket said:
And there is the rub. A teacher can only work with the students they are given. In my high school where I taught, we gave all incoming ninth graders a math test to see where they were according to grade level skills so they could take mandated Algebra I. In an average class of 35 kids, the scores ranged all the way from second grade to tenth grade. The distribution was far from even with the average being around fifth grade. The vast vast vast majority of the 35 were not anywhere near grade level in basic arithmetic skills needed to handle Algebra.

But now the administration says - teach them Algebra... here is your classroom .... here are your books ... here is your paycheck for doing this job.

What is missing from the recipe?
Click to expand...

It appears that every level of school along the way just passes the buck.
 
iliveonramen said:
The median is 55k so either the salaries are heavily skewed or they are including positions and salaries beyond just teaching.
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Yeah, I found some sources on that, thanks. The management version is always the one you have to watch.
 
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