• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

GM Suspending Chevy Volt Output Due To Slow Sales

KevinKohler said:
Actually, I have a theory on that...


I think that they AREN'T putting much effort into hybrid, which is WHY they tend to suck. I think ALL the major companies are busy, in underground bunker style R and D labs, trying to make either hydrogen, or better all electric cars.

I think hybrids are here just to shut us up, so to speak.

Look up some of the stranger concepts released by GM over the last 20 years or so, and you'll see what I mean. They best minds are NOT focused on hybrids, I truly believe that.
Click to expand...

I'd love to think you're right, I just don't think so. The hybrids were initially introduced as a means to show the government that the carmakers were trying to meet increased efficiency standards. The first hybrids failed miserably in the marketplace, it wasn't until Hollywood and the liberal left took up the cause and started driving Prius that hybrids had any traction whatsoever, and as studies show, most people who buy a hybrid, unless they're a complete liberal enviro-nut, don't buy another one. The reason is, these cars just don't live up to the hype. They only get that mileage by stripping the car down to the bare bones, everything you put on the car reduces mileage and every pound you pack into it reduces efficiency. When people don't get 50mpg because they don't weigh 28lbs and want to take passengers or equipment, or want to have air conditioning, etc., they realize that a hybrid is just an overpriced status symbol, it doesn't actually get them anything.

The problem with technologies like hydrogen is that you have a massive industry with tons of money and political connections that is entrenched in keeping oil in production. Sure, in a perfect world, you could convert all gas stations over to hydrogen stations, but the gas industry doesn't make any money off of that. It's politics that has killed any non-gas innovations.
 
lpast said:
I dont know what the answer is...and after I read and posted the article in economics because I didnt know where else to put it..lol...about 54.5 mile per gallon standard by 2016 and thats for gas cars...WOW...I think lahood is using fuzzy math for a variety of reasons



Feds roll out details of 54.5 mpg standard
Click to expand...
No doubt the math is funny. What will end up happening is you will have a bunch of economy cars no one wants sitting in lots and more pricey performers and larger vehicles.
 
LaMidRighter said:
No doubt the math is funny. What will end up happening is you will have a bunch of economy cars no one wants sitting in lots and more pricey performers and larger vehicles.
Click to expand...

First of all if you drive 2-5 k miles a year like many older americans do...you will never get your 1800 back and its going to be alot more than 1800 per car average
 
lpast said:
First of all if you drive 2-5 k miles a year like many older americans do...you will never get your 1800 back and its going to be alot more than 1800 per car average
Click to expand...
Yep, you are right here. The only way those numbers work are under constant driving scenarios such as traveling jobs and outside sales, delivery etc. Even then that wear and tear has a point where vehicles will have to be replaced sooner than the daily commuter vehicles and grocery getters so even then heavy travel sees no benefit. I don't think Lahood realizes that the physics and economics of these regulations don't work, unfortunately that man cannot be replaced by a simple vote and it will require an administration shift and new legislation.
 
Personally, I LIKE economy cars. They're simple, and easy to fix, usually.

They have small motors that generate little torque, which results in them being longer lasting. Less power = less breakage. (Unless it's an Alfa Romeo) I like that they have non electronic everything. Electric windows? Just something to break on you, by time you reach 150K miles. Crank windows don't break...and IF they do, they are cheap and easy to fix. Just gears. No electric motor, no wiring, no fuses, nothing. Anti lock breaks? Hate em. Learn to drive your car. Automatic tranny? Where's the fun in that. Give me a snappy five speed, and even a Fit is a blast to drive.

I keep going back to it, because, frankly, it was one of the BEST cars I have ever owned, bar non. My old Civic HX. Got GREAT gas mileage, never broke down, never gave me ANY problems, and the few I DID have, were relatively easy to fix. I probably should not have sold it, but I needed something with 4 doors, instead of 2.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Yep, you are right here. The only way those numbers work are under constant driving scenarios such as traveling jobs and outside sales, delivery etc. Even then that wear and tear has a point where vehicles will have to be replaced sooner than the daily commuter vehicles and grocery getters so even then heavy travel sees no benefit. I don't think Lahood realizes that the physics and economics of these regulations don't work, unfortunately that man cannot be replaced by a simple vote and it will require an administration shift and new legislation.
Click to expand...


Lahood is trying to sell those standards....the current cafe standard is 34.5 that was raised from 27.5 and it caused an increase in auto prices...now they want to raise it a FULL 20mpg...I dont know if the car companies could even manage that as an average...
Do you realize how many very popular vehicles cant get near that mileage for example Honda Crv which gets 27 and thats a 4cyl small suv ...
I dont know if this is even doable at this point
 
lpast said:
Lahood is trying to sell those standards....the current cafe standard is 34.5 that was raised from 27.5 and it caused an increase in auto prices...now they want to raise it a FULL 20mpg...I dont know if the car companies could even manage that as an average...
Do you realize how many very popular vehicles cant get near that mileage for example Honda Crv which gets 27 and thats a 4cyl small suv ...
I dont know if this is even doable at this point
Click to expand...

No worries. I guarantee you this is just pre-election hype.

If Obama wins, he will probably quietly back off from that number next year.

And if Romney wins, he'll probably cancel it altogether.
 
KevinKohler said:
Personally, I LIKE economy cars. They're simple, and easy to fix, usually.
Click to expand...
Got to disagree heavily here. More mileage means more sensors, sensors show falsely as a problem all the time to the computer because something else in the system broke. As well to shave weight engineers tend to make less engine bay and squeeze everything they can into that limited room, so to fix a starter, alternator, sensor, etc. you have to pull unrelated parts off just to get to the initial problem, then put the whole thing back together. Not only that economy cars are usually FWD which is a horrible configuration for longevity, CV joints and struts LOVE to break, and to fix that see problem 1. If anything economy cars are a huge pain in the ass.

They have small motors that generate little torque, which results in them being longer lasting. Less power = less breakage. (Unless it's an Alfa Romeo) I like that they have non electronic everything. Electric windows? Just something to break on you, by time you reach 150K miles. Crank windows don't break...and IF they do, they are cheap and easy to fix. Just gears. No electric motor, no wiring, no fuses, nothing. Anti lock breaks? Hate em. Learn to drive your car. Automatic tranny? Where's the fun in that. Give me a snappy five speed, and even a Fit is a blast to drive.
Click to expand...
Actually, under heavy driving conditions such as climbing and merging that little motor has to work twice as hard if not more, not only do you lose some of the initial MPG advantage during that process but harder work takes a toll, I look at it this way, gentle acceleration in a V8 requires less work so not only is it smoother for the operator but that big engine is taking less of a beating than that smaller setup, for instance start and stop traffic will kill any engine, but that economy car is taking a tremendous beating.

I keep going back to it, because, frankly, it was one of the BEST cars I have ever owned, bar non. My old Civic HX. Got GREAT gas mileage, never broke down, never gave me ANY problems, and the few I DID have, were relatively easy to fix. I probably should not have sold it, but I needed something with 4 doors, instead of 2.
Click to expand...
Hondas are tough little vehicles, no argument there, but you should see what people do to kill those cars with engine mods. A four banger is great for mileage, a Honda four banger is great for longevity, not so much for taking larger motor sportscars.
 
lpast said:
Lahood is trying to sell those standards....the current cafe standard is 34.5 that was raised from 27.5 and it caused an increase in auto prices...now they want to raise it a FULL 20mpg...I dont know if the car companies could even manage that as an average...
Do you realize how many very popular vehicles cant get near that mileage for example Honda Crv which gets 27 and thats a 4cyl small suv ...
I dont know if this is even doable at this point
Click to expand...
Physics my friend, what they are asking a fuel fed vehicle to do versus it's weight ratio is silly. It will take herculean tech that I don't even think exists right now and consumers will be forced to sacrifice quality. I am concerned about that issuance.
 
DA60 said:
No worries. I guarantee you this is just pre-election hype.

If Obama wins, he will probably quietly back off from that number next year.

And if Romney wins, he'll probably cancel it altogether.
Click to expand...


What it is...is backdoor pressure to build more electrics and hybrids and make them scrap vehicles they dont like...Im opposed to this myself..
 
lpast said:
What it is...is backdoor pressure to build more electrics and hybrids and make them scrap vehicles they dont like...Im opposed to this myself..
Click to expand...

I say dump CAFE and let consumers/the market decide what America's average fuel economy should be.

I am tired of corrupt politician's treating 'We The People' like 'We The Idiots'.
 
DA60 said:
I say dump CAFE and let consumers/the market decide what America's average fuel economy should be.

I am tired of corrupt politician's treating 'We The People' like 'We The Idiots'.
Click to expand...
The end of the 70s came to be known by Japanese import dominance because they were misers where gas was concerned, even with U.S. CAFE standards people were choosing the superior foreign car mileage. The market is perfectly capable of determining what should and should not be produced.
 
DA60 said:
I say dump CAFE and let consumers/the market decide what America's average fuel economy should be.

I am tired of corrupt politician's treating 'We The People' like 'We The Idiots'.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately We the People are idiots. We bitch and moan about gas prices, and the second prices drop everyone runs out and buys a brontosaurus-sized SUV. Then prices go back up and they bitch and moan about how much they're paying for a fill up.

What we should do is drop oil subsidies and raise the gas tax so it actually covers the cost of highway construction and maintenance. When gas is over $5 a gallon the CAFE standards will take care of themselves.
 
AdamT said:
Unfortunately We the People are idiots. We bitch and moan about gas prices, and the second prices drop everyone runs out and buys a brontosaurus-sized SUV. Then prices go back up and they bitch and moan about how much they're paying for a fill up.

What we should do is drop oil subsidies and raise the gas tax so it actually covers the cost of highway construction and maintenance. When gas is over $5 a gallon the CAFE standards will take care of themselves.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that what we should do is drop all energy subsidies, and let the market take care of the choices. That includes oil, alternative energy, and any other sources. Perhaps if the alternates were forced to step back and take a look at the market instead of assuming that the government will make up the shortfall, energy prices overall would drop.

Next we remove most of the deterrents to using our own energy sources. As of now, many of the US sources are off limits. It is entirely possible that the goal here is not to reduce energy prices, but to bring fossil fuel prices up to the level of the alternative sources.
 
AdamT said:
Unfortunately We the People are idiots.
Click to expand...
We bitch and moan about gas prices, and the second prices drop everyone runs out and buys a brontosaurus-sized SUV. Then prices go back up and they bitch and moan about how much they're paying for a fill up.

What we should do is drop oil subsidies and raise the gas tax so it actually covers the cost of highway construction and maintenance. When gas is over $5 a gallon the CAFE standards will take care of themselves.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true liberal, people are to stupid to make their own decision on what to drive. A soccer mom that wants to haul her kids and their friends around chooses a car that is big enough that she doesn't have to stack them in the back seat like cord wood and you call her an idiot, nice.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Spoken like a true liberal, people are to stupid to make their own decision on what to drive. A soccer mom that wants to haul her kids and their friends around chooses a car that is big enough that she doesn't have to stack them in the back seat like cord wood and you call her an idiot, nice.
Click to expand...

Right, mom needs a three ton, fuel sucking behemoth to shuttle around a 30 pound kid and his friends. :lol:
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Once again spoken like a true lib, YOU should decide what mom needs not mom.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned earlier, MOM decides she doesn't need it when fuel prices drop -- stupidly forgetting that fuel prices don't stay low for long.

The true wingnut cries that you can pry the wheel of his Navigator from his cold, dead hands ... while he whines about the price of gas.
 
AdamT said:
As I mentioned earlier, MOM decides she doesn't need it when fuel prices drop -- stupidly forgetting that fuel prices don't stay low for long.

The true wingnut cries that you can pry the wheel of his Navigator from his cold, dead hands ... while he whines about the price of gas.
Click to expand...

You still don't get it. If mom makes the decision to buy a big car when gas prices fall that is her decision to make. Freedom means you make your decisions and you live with the consequences of them for better or worse and maybe mom doesn't care what gas cost, maybe she just wants alot of steel around little Johnny. Who are you to demand she put him in a little car that a pickup will roll over like a speed bump.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You still don't get it. If mom makes the decision to buy a big car when gas prices fall that is her decision to make. Freedom means you make your decisions and you live with the consequences of them for better or worse and maybe mom doesn't care what gas cost, maybe she just wants alot of steel around little Johnny. Who are you to demand she put him in a little car that a pickup will roll over like a speed bump.
Click to expand...

And where is he demanding that?
 
AdamT said:
Right, mom needs a three ton, fuel sucking behemoth to shuttle around a 30 pound kid and his friends. :lol:
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what mom needs, any more than it matters what you think mom needs. If mom makes a mistake and finds she can no longer afford gas, she will move to a smaller vehicle, decide to ride bike, or walk. Again, not your decision.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You still don't get it. If mom makes the decision to buy a big car when gas prices fall that is her decision to make. Freedom means you make your decisions and you live with the consequences of them for better or worse and maybe mom doesn't care what gas cost, maybe she just wants alot of steel around little Johnny. Who are you to demand she put him in a little car that a pickup will roll over like a speed bump.
Click to expand...

If mom wants to drive heavy earth moving equipment to Chilis that's fine by me ... but she should STFU about how much it costs her to fill up her tanker when prices go back up.
 
AdamT said:
If mom wants to drive heavy earth moving equipment to Chilis that's fine by me ... but she should STFU about how much it costs her to fill up her tanker when prices go back up.
Click to expand...

I'll give you three STFU's about gas prices if you will give me back Anwhr, the gulf, Canadian pipeline, natural gas extraction.
 
jimbo said:
I'll give you three STFU's about gas prices if you will give me back Anwhr, the gulf, Canadian pipeline, natural gas extraction.
Click to expand...

You could have all three and it wouldn't move the price of gas more than a few pennies on the gallon.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom