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All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

Yep. There are some "MISTAKES" that you just don't make ... this being one of them.
The mistake was the 12lb trigger pull, and the cops who shot had no control over that decision.

The bystanders were not shot. They were struck by fragments when bullets hit nearby surfaces, such as brick walls. A proper trigger pull would have drastically reduced stray fragments by allowing the cops to accurately place rounds on-target, where the perp's body would absorb the bullet and there wouldn't be any fragments to hit bystanders.

The cops involved in the shooting did nothing wrong. Whoever required the 12lb trigger pull should be fired and sued civilly.
 
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The mistake was the 12lb trigger pull, and the cops who shot had no control over that decision.

The bystanders were not shot. They were struck by fragments when the bullets hit a nearby surface. A proper trigger pull would have prevented this by allowing the cops to accurately place rounds on-target, where the perp's body would absorb the bullet and there's wouldn't be any fragments to hit bystanders.

This is a least the second time you've mentioned the trigger pull. I have mixed feelings about that, but I do think having that much of a pull is a safety consideration which may have prevented unwanted weapons discharges by cops. I am no expert, but apparently, the 12 pounds is not an arbitrary number.

I return to a comment I made earlier about supervisors and training. What is the responsibility of a supervisor other than the quality of the donuts? If someone is properly trained, then the issue of the pull pressure is diminished. If you go to the range once a year and shoot a couple dozen rounds ... then you might have a point about pull pressure. Lethal force is a job requirement for these cops. I will not give them the 12 pound pull cop-out (pun intended). I fault the supervisors for not training these people properly ... and THAT is a mistake you don't make.

As far as the folks (and I don't know how many) getting hit by fragments ... there is probably a direct correlation to the number of shots fired and the quantity of fragments. Yet again, the subject of training rears its head.

So, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject of trigger pull pressure, I disagree with you and do not lay blame on the 12 pound trigger pull. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the cops and their supervisors.

A L
 
This is a least the second time you've mentioned the trigger pull. I have mixed feelings about that, but I do think having that much of a pull is a safety consideration which may have prevented unwanted weapons discharges by cops. I am no expert, but apparently, the 12 pounds is not an arbitrary number.

I return to a comment I made earlier about supervisors and training. What is the responsibility of a supervisor other than the quality of the donuts? If someone is properly trained, then the issue of the pull pressure is diminished. If you go to the range once a year and shoot a couple dozen rounds ... then you might have a point about pull pressure. Lethal force is a job requirement for these cops. I will not give them the 12 pound pull cop-out (pun intended). I fault the supervisors for not training these people properly ... and THAT is a mistake you don't make.

As far as the folks (and I don't know how many) getting hit by fragments ... there is probably a direct correlation to the number of shots fired and the quantity of fragments. Yet again, the subject of training rears its head.

So, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject of trigger pull pressure, I disagree with you and do not lay blame on the 12 pound trigger pull. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the cops and their supervisors.

A L
You admit to knowing what you're talking about, you disagree anyway, and you expect me to have something to say? Whatever man.
 
Lurker-
I can go along with looking at the powers that be who thought a 12 pound trigger pull is the way to go. I'd never heard of it before, guess I learned something new. Heard the number as 8 lbs not 12, but oh well. Oh as an aside Ayoob has 8 pounds on his Glocks, thinks the stiffer trigger breaks cleaner and stiffer spring allows faster back on target. (I take Ayoob with more than a grain of salt but he is a Guru of fighting handguns.)

Can say trigger pull is critical in pistols, is in a rifle as well but with pistols you have two unsupported hands controlling the direction. If your firing hand is fighting to put a great deal of pressure on the trigger your hands waver back and forth across the target far wider than on a lighter trigger as your hands fight back and forth to hold on target.

In comparison companies offer a glock fix of a 3.5 pound pull for the factory delivered trigger (5lbs). I learned on a 9mm Glock, shot the 45 Glock but I prefer my Springfield 45. It has additional safeties and a two stage trigger that is slick.

My thought is we call it trigger control, not a control trigger...
 
Thank you again for proving my point.

Oversimplified once again.

No Caine, it is not oversimplification, that is dismissal by you to protect your own (which I do say cops always do, so thanks for proving MY point). What they should have done was to be trained and capable of using their tools. What they demonstrated was that they were NOT. As such, they get taken off that beat until they can demonstrate themselves competent. They should have to face repercussions for the inept behavior particularly given the outcome in this case.

In ANY job or business, ineptitude does not excuse mistakes, everyone faces the repercussions of actions. Everyone but cops it seems. If they endanger the public while exercising their job, then they are acting counter to the very reason as to why we have them. It must be regulated. If you leave a data point such as this which demonstrates they do not have the ability to properly and intelligently use the tools of their job, then they must be reprimanded, the same as anyone else would.

Cops are not above the law, no matter how much you want to argue that case.
 
I think it is great that the cops had the balls to do what needed to be done. They're heroes. It does, however, appear that they could use some marksman training.
 
You admit to knowing what you're talking about, you disagree anyway, and you expect me to have something to say? Whatever man.

I admitted to NOT KNOWING a lot about trigger pull pressures. I guess you either failed to read and/or comprehend the rest of the post ... hence your "Whatever man".

So it appears that proper training is not part of what you consider important. There is a post below yours which pointed out the various pull pressures. Yet again, I freely admit to a lack of knowledge of same but I stand by my contention that proper training is the answer to the problem. Since you failed to mention the lack supervisory oversight leads me to believe that you are either in or have been in a supervisory position and don't want to criticise them. I have had supervisory positions (not in firearms) and I know that as Harry Truman's desk plaque said, "The buck stops here". Yes, I still blame the cops and I still blame the supervisors. The issue of the necessity of the 12 pound rule is up to the powers that be (aka OTHER SUPERVISORS).

Your "Whatever man" adds nothing to the discussion. Now, if the preceeding statement causes you a problem ...

A L
 
I admitted to NOT KNOWING a lot about trigger pull pressures. I guess you either failed to read and/or comprehend the rest of the post ... hence your "Whatever man". So it appears that proper training is not part of what you consider important. There is a post below yours which pointed out the various pull pressures. Yet again, I freely admit to a lack of knowledge of same but I stand by my contention that proper training is the answer to the problem. Since you failed to mention the lack supervisory oversight leads me to believe that you are either in or have been in a supervisory position and don't want to criticise them. I have had supervisory positions (not in firearms) and I know that as Harry Truman's desk plaque said, "The buck stops here". Yes, I still blame the cops and I still blame the supervisors. The issue of the necessity of the 12 pound rule is up to the powers that be (aka OTHER SUPERVISORS).Your "Whatever man" adds nothing to the discussion. Now, if the preceeding statement causes you a problem ...A L
A 12lb trigger pull is like having a bent barrel. No training is going to compensate for that, so whatever.
 
This is a least the second time you've mentioned the trigger pull. I have mixed feelings about that, but I do think having that much of a pull is a safety consideration which may have prevented unwanted weapons discharges by cops. I am no expert, but apparently, the 12 pounds is not an arbitrary number.

I return to a comment I made earlier about supervisors and training. What is the responsibility of a supervisor other than the quality of the donuts? If someone is properly trained, then the issue of the pull pressure is diminished. If you go to the range once a year and shoot a couple dozen rounds ... then you might have a point about pull pressure. Lethal force is a job requirement for these cops. I will not give them the 12 pound pull cop-out (pun intended). I fault the supervisors for not training these people properly ... and THAT is a mistake you don't make.

As far as the folks (and I don't know how many) getting hit by fragments ... there is probably a direct correlation to the number of shots fired and the quantity of fragments. Yet again, the subject of training rears its head.

So, based upon my limited knowledge of the subject of trigger pull pressure, I disagree with you and do not lay blame on the 12 pound trigger pull. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the cops and their supervisors.

A L

Hey, now we are getting somewhere.

The number of shots fired is high up on my list of the mistakes made. However, I can understand how such a mistake could be made by someone who is in a situation where they genuinely fear for their life.

The trigger pull issue does come into play only because it add yet one more factor in creating an inaccurate shot. Increased stress from a fear of death + Heavy trigger pull (thus creating a higher chance to jerk the trigger/pull a shot off target) = Inaccurate shots.

Increased stress from fear of death (made greater due to how close the police were with the suspect) = Clouded judgement on when to stop shooting.


One "monday morning quarterback" suggestion that MAY or MAY NOT have been a good idea would have been to keep observation on the suspect after he was pointed out by the construction worker and follow/observe him until he cleared a heavily congested area before approaching him. HOWEVER, that scenario may not have been possible depending on when they were able to locate him and whether or not he saw them when they saw him, etc, etc.


I know the general public tends to lean towards "the officers were wrong" in any situation, but one has to consider alot of factors when determining things like "recklessness" in defending their own lives. I honestly believe none of you are taking into account what fear and increased stress can do to one who is shooting for their life at a close distance like that.
 
I think it is great that the cops had the balls to do what needed to be done. They're heroes. It does, however, appear that they could use some marksman training.

No amount of training can duplicate the effects that the very real fear of imminent death can have on your decision making and accuracy.
 
No Caine, it is not oversimplification, that is dismissal by you to protect your own (which I do say cops always do, so thanks for proving MY point). What they should have done was to be trained and capable of using their tools. What they demonstrated was that they were NOT. As such, they get taken off that beat until they can demonstrate themselves competent. They should have to face repercussions for the inept behavior particularly given the outcome in this case.

In ANY job or business, ineptitude does not excuse mistakes, everyone faces the repercussions of actions. Everyone but cops it seems. If they endanger the public while exercising their job, then they are acting counter to the very reason as to why we have them. It must be regulated. If you leave a data point such as this which demonstrates they do not have the ability to properly and intelligently use the tools of their job, then they must be reprimanded, the same as anyone else would.

Cops are not above the law, no matter how much you want to argue that case.

Cops are not above the law.

However, you are not taking into account the effect that increased stress levels from the imminent fear of death and how that effects ones ability to use fine motor skills in an accurate manner.
 
No amount of training can duplicate the effects that the very real fear of imminent death can have on your decision making and accuracy.

I'm just givin' 'em a hard time. I dunno how many were ricochet or fall-downs. I say 'absolutely' on the engage.
 
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