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All nine wounded in NY shooting hit by police: official

apdst said:
Or, the government could stop killing jobs and we could generate the tax revenue needed to pay those public employees. I know the Libbos thinks that's just a crazy notion, but it's worth mentioning.
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you were right --- it is a crazy notion but only because you offer not the slightest proof of your assertions and claims.
 
Chiefgator said:
So, you are saying that the cops should have waited until he shot at them to return fire?
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No - look at the video.

They should have fired less then 16 bullets to kill a guy who did not fire back on a heavily crowded street.
 
DA60 said:
No - look at the video.

They should have fired less then 16 bullets to kill a guy who did not fire back on a heavily crowded street.
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Bing.

Several years ago, my son was out on the porch waiting for me when he started screaming. I ran out and he was being attacked by a rabid fox. I kicked the fox away from him; it hit the ground and ran. I didn't want it to get away and possibly be a repeated threat or a threat to my neighbors. I drew my pistol, took careful aim, and fired one shot, crippling it instantly as it ran across my field of view at 24 yards range. I live out in the country and my nearest neighbors are a couple hundred yards away, but I knew I needed to be careful and make SURE my shot went exactly where it was intended to go, and where if it missed it would go harmlessly into the ground. I did this with a scant second to see, prepare, decide and act, while emotionally agitated due to the attack on my son and my fear that he'd been bitten by a rabid animal.

I'm a good shot but not the best by any means. There are IPSC competitors that could make me look slow and stupid.

It is very do-able. All it takes is lots of practice and reasonably steady nerves. I faced situations as a cop when the opposition was armed and I had to keep my head and use good judgement, and I did so... it is hardly impossible and while a crowded NY street is a bad place for an exchange of fire it could certainly have been done without directly shooting 3 bystanders if the LEOs were reasonably well trained.
 
Goshin said:
I drew my pistol, took careful aim, and fired one shot, crippling it instantly as it ran across my field of view at 24 yards range.
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So what happened to the fox? Since you said it was rabid, I assume you took the carcass for tests. Is that correct?

A L
 
Somerville said:
You do realise that you've just said that it would be OK to shoot an innocent person who draws his weapon in an attempt to aid LEOs shooting at a criminal - don't you?
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That is not what I said.

In a firefight, if you jump in the mix, you are very likely to cause more confusion. In that instance, the police may very well mistake you for an accomplice and turn their fire on you. At the very least, you will distract them and increase the risk for them instead of helping them.

I actively carry. I fully support the 2nd. But, to draw your weapon and jump in, when the authorities are there, is irresponsible at best.
 
zstep18 said:
Then what's the point in having a firearm to defend yourself?
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If the shooter is shooting at you, and you are defending yourself... That is a differnt thing. The comment was in response to someone saying an armed citizen could have helped the LEO. Once the cops are there, stay the hell out of it.
 
DA60 said:
No - look at the video.

They should have fired less then 16 bullets to kill a guy who did not fire back on a heavily crowded street.
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I agree that they fired too many rounds. But the fact that he never fired has no bearing. He used his gun in a threatening manner and they, justifiably, shot him.
 
Chiefgator said:
That is not what I said.

In a firefight, if you jump in the mix, you are very likely to cause more confusion. In that instance, the police may very well mistake you for an accomplice and turn their fire on you. At the very least, you will distract them and increase the risk for them instead of helping them.

I actively carry. I fully support the 2nd. But, to draw your weapon and jump in, when the authorities are there, is irresponsible at best.
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It is what you said/wrote, I was simply pointing out that the words you used in your initial post could be construed in the manner I pointed out. Words have meaning - words have different connotations for different folks. When speaking to one another it is much easier to correct misunderstanding, when posting on a forum hitting the POST button sometimes means we 'say' things we don't actually mean to say.
 
Chiefgator said:
That is not what I said.

In a firefight, if you jump in the mix, you are very likely to cause more confusion. In that instance, the police may very well mistake you for an accomplice and turn their fire on you. At the very least, you will distract them and increase the risk for them instead of helping them.

I actively carry. I fully support the 2nd. But, to draw your weapon and jump in, when the authorities are there, is irresponsible at best.
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There are plenty of notable examples when even law enforcement disagrees with you and praises the actions of armed citizens who come to an officers aid.
A recent one, for example: Armed Citizens: Armed citizen saves police officer's life

These NYC officers just appear to be ill-prepared and not adequately trained to deal with the situation they encountered. So much for the "only the police are trained and responsible enough to carry firearms" tripe.
 
theangryamerican said:
There are plenty of notable examples when even law enforcement disagrees with you and praises the actions of armed citizens who come to an officers aid.
A recent one, for example: Armed Citizens: Armed citizen saves police officer's life

These NYC officers just appear to be ill-prepared and not adequately trained to deal with the situation they encountered. So much for the "only the police are trained and responsible enough to carry firearms" tripe.
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Again. Taking the situation into context, I would certainly agree.
 
Somerville said:
It is what you said/wrote, I was simply pointing out that the words you used in your initial post could be construed in the manner I pointed out. Words have meaning - words have different connotations for different folks. When speaking to one another it is much easier to correct misunderstanding, when posting on a forum hitting the POST button sometimes means we 'say' things we don't actually mean to say.
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My error was that I did not quote the comment to which I was responding. With the quote, you would have seen that I was making a specific comment to to other poster.
 
Chiefgator said:
My error was that I did not quote the comment to which I was responding. With the quote, you would have seen that I was making a specific comment to to other poster.
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Exactly my point. In conversation this would have been clear - online, not so much.
 
Somerville said:
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





NY Daily News


The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
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I think Bloom-tard needs to order firearms training for his police.
 
Somerville said:
Goshin wrote


Can you support your statement with a link or two to some academic study(s)?
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He has personal experience. He doesn't need to show you a link. You, on the other hand seem to be an expert in combat related incidents. So what kind of combat have you experienced?
 
bicycleman said:
He has personal experience. He doesn't need to show you a link. You, on the other hand seem to be an expert in combat related incidents. So what kind of combat have you experienced?
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"personal experience" is anecdotal and of little worth by itself "the exception often proves the rule". What one person has seen during their lifetime is of value but far greater weight is put upon such personal examples when they are part of large numbers of similar examples.

In online forums, when a poster makes a statement of 'fact', they should be prepared to support it with reliable sources - other posters are permitted to ask for such support or they may then ask questions as to why that original statement of 'fact' can't be verified.

What "kind of combat" I have experienced is personal info that I ain't sharing online. So you can say I haven't experienced it and your answer from me will be ... nada
 
Somerville said:
"personal experience" is anecdotal and of little worth by itself "the exception often proves the rule". What one person has seen during their lifetime is of value but far greater weight is put upon such personal examples when they are part of large numbers of similar examples.

In online forums, when a poster makes a statement of 'fact', they should be prepared to support it with reliable sources - other posters are permitted to ask for such support or they may then ask questions as to why that original statement of 'fact' can't be verified.

What "kind of combat" I have experienced is personal info that I ain't sharing online. So you can say I haven't experienced it and your answer from me will be ... nada
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Fight with girl friends doesn't count as combat.

On another thread, I was in an argument over the Obama birth certificate. I stated that in 1961, race was not depicted as African. It was written as black, colored, or negro. Some poster demanded a link. I lived in that era, and I dont have a link to personal experience.

The Internet is not always a reliable resource.
 
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Somerville said:
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





NY Daily News


The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
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Not sure if you caught this yet, at 11 seconds, a mom runs off without grabbing her daughter.
 
So, where are those tasers when you need them? They seem like the first resort when firing in a crowded area.
 
Somerville said:
When so many Americans have the idea that "Only if I had a gun with me, I could have stopped X from happening", the real world sometimes shows a different reality.





NY Daily News


The killer had one round left in his pistol so it appears to be "suicide by cop" after he committed a murder.

One of the officers reacts quickly and brings his weapon to bear on the killer, the other one - not so good, his first reaction is to move behind his partner before drawing his pistol. MY point is to bring to everyone's attention the reality that your personal reaction at the moment you realise death is looming before you may not be the reaction you think you will have.
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You always hear about how much ammo cops drop when firing at perps. They ain't 100% accurate. Perchance a large, class action lawsuit is in order here.
 
Somerville said:
Goshin wrote


Can you support your statement with a link or two to some academic study(s)?
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According to FBI police crime reports, in 2008 there were 14,180 murders and 616 justifiable homicides (of which 371 were performed by law enforcement) in the United States
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Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This would mean 245 justified killings by armed private citizens... about 65% as many as the police. How many by CCW'ers? I don't have that information, but more than a few I'm sure.

Studies show that in something like 99.9% of all civilian gun-defense incidents, no one is killed or seriously wounded... usually the criminal flees from the armed citizen.

Any private citizen who shot an innocent bystander would (unlike an LEO) be charged for doing so... at a minimum, with negligent discharge, and probably with felony charges. If the innocent bystander were killed, the permit holder would be charged, at a minimum, with negligent homicide or worse. Yet the follow stats show that the number of CCWers who have been charged with any kind of gun-related crime is a TINY percentage...




Since adopting CCW (1987), Florida's homicide rate has fallen 21% while the U.S. rate has risen 12%. From start-up 10/1/87 2/28/94 (over 6 yrs.) Florida issued 204,108 permits; only 17 (0.008%) were revoked because permittees later committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which guns were present (not necessarily used).

Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm. Americans use firearms for self-defense more than 2.1 million times annually.
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Carry Concealed


Habtu’s article also brings up the statistic that four CCW permit holders have committed firearms-related murder this year, four in almost an entire year. How many crimes are committed each year by people illegally carrying firearms or with illegal firearms themselves? The U.S. Department of Justice states on its Web site that of the 16,137 murders in 2004, 66 percent or 10,650 were committed with firearms. The four occurrences she has listed seem to be outweighed by this statistic. The Texas Department of Public Safety released a study in May of 1999 that showed that permit holders in Texas accounted for 0.246 percent of all aggravated assault crimes that involved a deadly weapon, four out of 1,629 convictions. It also shows that there were 3,303 convictions for people unlawfully carrying a weapon: One percent of these were permit holders. In the year 1999 the rate of murder convictions for permit holders in Texas was zero percent.
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Statistics show concealed carry saves many lives, takes few - CollegiateTimes.com

National statistics on police shootings are, as far as I can tell, not complied in any manner accessible to the public.
However, I found this data on 2010 police shootings in NYC...

The statistics also show NYPD officers only fired their weapons 92 times in 2010, a 13-percent decline from the previous year....
The report shows 21 of the shootings in 2010 were unintentional and eight involved the unauthorized use of a police firearm.
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In other words, someone on the NYPD screwed up in some fashion 29 times out of 92 shooting incidents. That's 31%...
 
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Another Lurker said:
So what happened to the fox? Since you said it was rabid, I assume you took the carcass for tests. Is that correct?

A L
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No, I did not. We were astonishingly fortunate that my son had not a single scratch; he had a blanket around his shoulders (it was slightly cool that morning) and had interposed it. The fox had bitten the blanket repeatedly but failed to get in a bite on my child.

"Rabid" was, I suppose, an assumption on my part... but a good assumption. Foxes don't normally act like this... they're not out in the daytime much, they almost never approach humans within touching range, and I've never heard of a non-rabid fox attacking a human unless the humans stumbled over a nest with kits. Thus I presumed the animal was rabid.

We live out in the country. We don't call the authorities for every little thing. I burned the fox carcass (to protect against other animals eating it and possibly being infected) and warned my neighbors, and that was that as far as I was concerned.

Pic of me and the fox:

Deadfox.jpg
 
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Goshin wrote
Since adopting CCW (1987), Florida's homicide rate has fallen 21% while the U.S. rate has risen 12%.Since adopting CCW (1987), Florida's homicide rate has fallen 21% while the U.S. rate has risen 12%.
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When talking about today - you should try to use more up to date data - as you did with the other items you mentioned. The above bit of information comes from 1992, the present homicide rate is nearly 28% below 1987s murder numbers.

US violent crime rate down for fifth straight year June 12, 2012

Although crime historically spikes during hard economic times, the US is currently bucking that trend. Both the national violent crime rate and murder rate were down in 2011, reports the FBI.
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from a PolitiFact piece about Florida's crime rates being at a 40 year low are some of the alternative answers to just why crime is down despite the poor economic situation and relatively high unemployment.
Here are some of the ideas that have been advanced to explain the lower crime rates: Police are getting better at using technology to prevent crime. More people are in jail and therefore can’t commit crimes. Drug addiction is not as widespread as it once was. Online banking and debit cards mean people don’t have cash at home. Abortions have suppressed the number of poor, unsupervised young men. Low inflation makes stealing non-cash items less attractive. President Barack Obama is setting a positive example for African-American youth. New gun laws establishing the right to carry are deterring criminals. Joblessness means people are at home watching the neighborhood. Extended unemployment benefits and food stamps mean people don’t have to turn to crime. Banning lead paint and leaded gasoline has reduced criminal impulses among young men.
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The CCW laws are in there but why shouldn't we apply equal weight to the other reasons? There really hasn't been an exhaustive study of the causes for the drop in crime rates.

Remember: Correlation does not (always) equal causation
 
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Somerville said:
Goshin wrote


When talking about today - you should try to use more up to date data - as you did with the other items you mentioned. The above bit of information comes from 1992, the present homicide rate is nearly 28% below 1987s murder numbers.



from a PolitiFact piece about Florida's crime rates being at a 40 year low are some of the alternative answers to just why crime is down despite the poor economic situation and relatively high unemployment.


The CCW laws are in there but why shouldn't we apply equal weight to the other reasons? There really hasn't been an exhaustive study of the causes for the drop in crime rates.

Remember: Correlation does not (always) equal causation
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You appear to have missed the point.

The point, and the question I was answering with sourced stats, was that there is no evidence that CCW permit holders pose a danger to innocent bystanders to any statistically significant degree... pity the same cannot be said for the NYPD.
 
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