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Rahm: “Chick-fil-A Values Are Not Chicago Values” [W:698]

I would disagree, but have the tact and common courtesy to not deem them stupid.
Tact and common courtesy only factor into to what you say about people out loud. Calling them stupid to their face would be tactless. Recognizing that someone is stupid is just recognizing facts. Not all facts are rainbows.
 
Please quote me where I said that it is not alright for a business owner to not support gay marriage. Apparently, you have access to a part of my brain that has lost its internet service. Upon seeing your quote, I'll apologize for ever doubting you.

With respect, I already stated why I did not answer your comments...



...because you have already made it clear that it's not alright for a business owner to not support gay marriage. Not liking to waste time with truly unfair notions, I'm not going to answer that comment. In my opinion I think all business owners ought to have their non-violent opinions without fear of punishment. You seem to disagree with this.
 
Yeah... and the New Black Panther Movement just wants to help white people find the error of their ways. Do you know how ridiculous and condescending you sound when you argue that you have the power to help gay people get fixed? Does your brain even program such information? I mean I get it. But could you imagine the little fit you and other Christians would have if an Atheist group had a camp designed to turn Christians into atheists because they thought their lifestyle - and yes - Christian IS a lifestyle you choose - was wrong?

Would an atheist camp devoted to helping Christian kids shed their illogical fantasies about the sky fairy be a hate group? No, just an ignorant group. If their mission was "eradicate the Christians, Christians are evil and we hate them" then they would be a hate group. Christianity is a lifestyle choice, people can disagree with it and they do. People can mock it, try to change people from it and disrespect it (as is frequently done) but that isn't an action of hate against Christian individuals.
 
The KKK and NeoNazis hate minorities and Jews. The FRC condemns homosexual acts and believes that homosexual behavior is unhealthy and damaging to the individual. You can disagree with their studies, but I see no evidence that they hate homosexual individuals and on their website they say that sympathy should be shown and that homosexuals should be helped out of that lifestyle. You can certainly strongly disagree with them, but this isn't an issue of hate nor can they be rationally compared to the KKK or NeoNazis. It's not rational to call them a hate group and I largely suspect they are branded as such because people impose their irrational bias and their desire to believe that FRC is a hate group because it's fueled by their illogical and unfair desire to "demonize the enemy." The Wesboro morons are a hate group, the FRC is not.

Wow, you are defending a hate group. I bet you are making your great grandchildren proud. This group's "research" is cherry picked literature reviews that seek to make gays look like public health enemy number one. I bet if you go to the KKK's website you could tell me how they are an honest organization seeking to protect the heritage of white Americans and have no hatred for blacks, but merely wish to escort them back to Africa. Seriously dude, you are embarrassing yourself.

You could also address my original question though. Would you support city governments legally banning Target stores solely because Target supports SSM and sells pro-homosexual merchandise and the city's argument is that "Target does not reflect our values"?

Um...why is the question even relevant? An organization supporting same sex marriage is not the same as an organization supporting a hate group. That is the way I see it. Get over the whole idea that I have to see it your way. The FRC is a hate group, just as surely as the KKK is. As that is my perspective, you will have to accept that I see your perspective as ludicrous.
 
The KKK and NeoNazis hate minorities and Jews. The FRC condemns homosexual acts and believes that homosexual behavior is unhealthy and damaging to the individual. You can disagree with their studies, but I see no evidence that they hate homosexual individuals and on their website they say that sympathy should be shown and that homosexuals should be helped out of that lifestyle. You can certainly strongly disagree with them, but this isn't an issue of hate nor can they be rationally compared to the KKK or NeoNazis. It's not rational to call them a hate group and I largely suspect they are branded as such because people impose their irrational bias and their desire to believe that FRC is a hate group because it's fueled by their illogical and unfair desire to "demonize the enemy." The Wesboro morons are a hate group, the FRC is not.
It's interesting that you've spent the better part of this thread attempting to show that people's viewpoints are inconsistent (and therefore, problematic) if they support banning anti-SSM groups but not pro-SSM groups. However, you are displaying exactly what you are trying to fight against: inconsistency. The KKK and NeoNazis more often than not in modern times do not argue that they "hate" blacks or Jews. On the contrary, they tend to despise such attacks on their character and only claim that they want "racial separatism" or even to help minorities embrace their own culture. It's all bull****.

You're blinded by your own bias on this issue.
 
Would an atheist camp devoted to helping Christian kids shed their illogical fantasies about the sky fairy be a hate group?

That doesn't even make sense. Try rewriting it.

No, just an ignorant group. If their mission was "eradicate the Christians, Christians are evil and we hate them" then they would be a hate group. Christianity is a lifestyle choice, people can disagree with it and they do. People can mock it, try to change people from it and disrespect it (as is frequently done) but that isn't an action of hate against Christian individuals.

Here. I'll copy that exact paragraph and replace the key words:

No, just an ignorant group. If their mission was "eradicate homosexuality, homosexuality is evil and we hate it" then they would be a hate group.

Now answer honestly: Is this not the view the Christian right has of homosexuality? If you answer no - you're being dishonest.
 
The problem is that you are on one side of the same coin. The beauty of reality is that it is complex, no truths are written in stone, and there will exist groups of people who have differing opinions. You proclaim your opinion is the truth. You cannot know, because it is your opinion. You and your beliefs, the owner of Chick-fil-A and his views... can coexist. Does this business refuse to hire homosexuals? I doubt it. And yes, there do exist certain ideologues with opinions, gasp, that are different than yours that donate their money to groups that share the same views. Let it be. I acknowledge that there are those who donate money towards organizations that have views that oppose mine, but I let it be and accept it, because I'm not so arrogant as to demand others can't have their views, or donate money to them. It's arrogance.

Ah! You want to play the relativism card! I love that card! But I learned an amazing way to win when that card is played from none other than a Christian missionary! When you have two equally possible alternatives you go with the one that errs on the side of not hurting people. Let's compare...organizations that support people forming committed long term relationships or organizations that support lies and distortions about an entire group of people...hm....I wonder which one might be hurting people!
 
This is just Chicago being stupid. It's discriminatory to punish a business because the owner disagrees with gay marriage. It would be like cities banning Target for supporting them. It hurts business owners and is wrong.

I respond:

Walt Disney
American girl
Ford
McDonalds
Hallmark cards
Campbell soup company
Archie Comics
JC Penny
Starbucks
Home Depot
Pepsi
MillerCoors

They are boycotted or have been boycotted, campaigned against because they support gay and lesbian causes. The liberals will stop their fight right after the religious right stops their boycotts and campaigns.
 
I respond:

Walt Disney
American girl
Ford
McDonalds
Hallmark cards
Campbell soup company
Archie Comics
JC Penny
Starbucks
Home Depot
Pepsi
MillerCoors

They are boycotted or have been boycotted, campaigned against because they support gay and lesbian causes. The liberals will stop their fight right after the religious right stops their boycotts and campaigns.

You should add Oreos. Christians hate that.
 
Wow, you are defending a hate group. I bet you are making your great grandchildren proud. This group's "research" is cherry picked literature reviews that seek to make gays look like public health enemy number one. I bet if you go to the KKK's website you could tell me how they are an honest organization seeking to protect the heritage of white Americans and have no hatred for blacks, but merely wish to escort them back to Africa. Seriously dude, you are embarrassing yourself.
the KKK literally hates minorities though, this is what you are failing to comprehend. Historic acts of violence by the KKK is evidence. Show me the acts of violates against gay people directly committed by the FRC and supported by them. Personally, what I find embarrassing is trying to honestly compare FRC with the KKK and NeoNazis.
Um...why is the question even relevant? An organization supporting same sex marriage is not the same as an organization supporting a hate group. That is the way I see it. Get over the whole idea that I have to see it your way. The FRC is a hate group, just as surely as the KKK is. As that is my perspective, you will have to accept that I see your perspective as ludicrous.

You can loosely define anything as a hate group based on your own bias and need to label them as such, but either way it's not rational. And the question is relevant, because that's the grounds that the cities want to use to ban Chick Fil A, not because Chick Fil A donates to "hate groups." On a legal level this is what they are arguing, which would also mean that other cities should be allowed to ban companies that happen to support SSM solely based on the owner's values and beliefs.

I respond:

Walt Disney
American girl
Ford
McDonalds
Hallmark cards
Campbell soup company
Archie Comics
JC Penny
Starbucks
Home Depot
Pepsi
MillerCoors

They are boycotted or have been boycotted, campaigned against because they support gay and lesbian causes. The liberals will stop their fight right after the religious right stops their boycotts and campaigns.
And as I've said, people have every right to boycott and give their business to establishments that respect their personal values. What isn't right is for governments to try and use the law to keep businesses out that do not agree with their values.


It's interesting that you've spent the better part of this thread attempting to show that people's viewpoints are inconsistent (and therefore, problematic) if they support banning anti-SSM groups but not pro-SSM groups. However, you are displaying exactly what you are trying to fight against: inconsistency. The KKK and NeoNazis more often than not in modern times do not argue that they "hate" blacks or Jews. On the contrary, they tend to despise such attacks on their character and only claim that they want "racial separatism" or even to help minorities embrace their own culture. It's all bull****.

You're blinded by your own bias on this issue.

As I've referenced, the KKK and certainly the Nazis were violent. Their ideals were based on hate. If I'm not mistaken the KKK supports that there is a superior race and that others are inferior (as well as the Nazis). They can't be compared to FRC, which throws out research that is conducted in bias that happens to not support the homosexual rights movement. I think the blind bias comes in when people chose to irrationally label the FRC as a hate group and compare them to the KKK because they can't separate their personal dislike for them from rational argumentation. It's part of a partisan mindset, people who act irrationally on an issue want to believe that the "other side" is evil or hateful. It happens all the time.
 
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the KKK literally hates minorities though, this is what you are failing to comprehend. Historic acts of violence by the KKK is evidence. Show me the acts of violates against gay people directly committed by the FRC and supported by them. Personally, what I find embarrassing is trying to honestly compare FRC with the KKK and NeoNazis.

That is because you are not informed. You immediately jumped to defend a group without knowing its history or its research. ThePlayDrive hit the nail on the head. You shot yourself in the foot. You demanded more of others than you could deliver yourself. Here is a little resource so you can learn some of the history of the organization you have chosen to align yourself with.

18 Anti-Gay Groups and Their Propaganda | Southern Poverty Law Center

Given that the FRC argued that gays are a bunch of child molesters...well...we all know how that probably went for people who took them seriously. Good to know that you support those kinds of views.

At least the KKK is nice enough not to declare black people are out to get your children.
 
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That is because you are not informed. You immediately jumped to defend a group without knowing its history or its research. ThePlayDrive hit the nail on the head. You shot yourself in the foot. You demanded more of others than you could deliver yourself. Here is a little resource so you can learn some of the history of the organization you have chosen to align yourself with.

18 Anti-Gay Groups and Their Propaganda | Southern Poverty Law Center

Given that the FRC argued that gays are a bunch of child molesters...well...we all know how that probably went for people who took them seriously. Good to know that you support those kinds of views.

Thanks for imposing the false charge that I believe that gays are a bunch of child molesters. Do I agree with FRC studies? No. But rationally, are they a hate group on par with the KKK or NeoNazis? No. You immediately jump in to attack a group and equate them with violent groups like the KKK without knowings its history. When FRC starts hanging homosexuals or killing them in ethnic purges then you'll have an equatable argument. But regardless, the issue is not about the FRC or if Chick Fil A donates to your perceived "hate groups." It's about city governments trying to legally harm a business based on the owner's personal views. This is a violation of freedom.
 
the Nazis were violent. Their ideals were based on hate. If I'm not mistaken the KKK supports that there is a superior race and that others are inferior (as well as the Nazis). They can't be compared to FRC, which throws out research that is conducted in bias that happens to not support the homosexual rights movement. I think the blind bias comes in when people chose to irrationally label the FRC as a hate group and compare them to the KKK because they can't separate their personal dislike for them from rational argumentation. It's part of a partisan mindset, people who act irrationally on an issue want to believe that the "other side" is evil or hateful. It happens all the time.
Violence is not the only means of expressing hate. Purposely spreading false, damaging and hateful ideas about group is another means. An organization that spreads false information that homosexual men are more likely be pedophiles is a hate group. I suspect that the majority of people feel some version of hatred when thinking of pedophiles. Consequently, to smear an entire group with that label is certainly an action either aimed at spreading hate or aware of the potential to inspire hatred.

Moreover, FRC and those who do not support SSM are, in fact, spreading the message that heterosexuality is superior to homosexuality, if not directly, then indirectly by attempting to stop it through homosexuality "rehabilitation" techniques. Similarly, they are certainly spreading the message that heterosexual relationships are superior to homosexual relationships when they argue that the latter should be banned or prevented and the former should be embraced.

You are, straight up, blinded by your bias.
 
That is because you are not informed. You immediately jumped to defend a group without knowing its history or its research. ThePlayDrive hit the nail on the head. You shot yourself in the foot. You demanded more of others than you could deliver yourself. Here is a little resource so you can learn some of the history of the organization you have chosen to align yourself with.

18 Anti-Gay Groups and Their Propaganda | Southern Poverty Law Center

Given that the FRC argued that gays are a bunch of child molesters...well...we all know how that probably went for people who took them seriously. Good to know that you support those kinds of views.

At least the KKK is nice enough not to declare black people are out to get your children.

Did you read your own link? Doesn't go into any accusations or incidences of violence by the FRC. They just believe homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals are more likely to be pedos. You can disagree with them, and folks often do. But they aren't known for being violent.
 
Seems to me that the owners of Chick a fil have the right to say whatever stupid, bigoted thing they want short of suggesting violence.

Once having said stupid, bigoted things, the same principles applies to the consequences involved in their saying something stupid and bigoted. Why people seem to think that "free speech" means "freedom from consequences" is anybody's guess, but the fact remains that people ALSO have the right to reject them for their stupidity and bigotry.
 
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Hatuey said:
Yeah... and the New Black Panther Movement just wants to help white people find the error of their ways. Do you know how ridiculous and condescending you sound when you argue that you have the power to help gay people get fixed? Does your brain even program such information?
You can certainly disagree with the Family Research Council. But is the term "hate group" appropriate for them?

But could you imagine the little fit you and other Christians would have if an Atheist group had a camp designed to turn Christians into atheists because they thought their lifestyle - and yes - Christianity IS a lifestyle you choose - was wrong?

I would think it pointless and foolish, like I think gay conversion camps are pointless and foolish...but I wouldn't consider them a hate group.
 
Violence is not the only means of expressing hate. Purposely spreading false, damaging and hateful ideas about group is another means. An organization that spreads false information that homosexual men are more likely be pedophiles is a hate group. I suspect that the majority of people feel some version of hatred when thinking of pedophiles. Consequently, to smear an entire group with that label is certainly an action either aimed at spreading hate or aware of the potential to inspire hatred.

Moreover, FRC and those who do not support SSM are, in fact, spreading the message that heterosexuality is superior to homosexuality, if not directly, then indirectly by attempting to stop it through homosexuality "rehabilitation" techniques. Similarly, they are certainly spreading the message that heterosexual relationships are superior to homosexual relationships when they argue that the latter should be banned or prevented and the former should be embraced.

You are, straight up, blinded by your bias.

Do you even know my views? I support SSM, so why would I be biased in favor of a group that doesn't? I have also said that I do not believe the studies or research that the FRC puts out and I think it's biased. Although, I do not support labelling the FRC as a hate group. Many groups support their ideals and are against the ideals of others, this isn't hate. Are the socialist parties around the world haters of capitalists? No, but they may hate capitalism. Are the capitalist parties around the world haters of communists? No, but they may hate communism. One argues that personal economic freedom should be banned or prevented, while government expansion should be embraced. It's hate when one of these parties wants to kill dissenters (as has been done in the past) or if they say that socialists/capitalists/communists should be hated.

Based on this issue, I would say there is more hatred by Chicago towards Chick Fil A because Chicago can't simply hate the idea that SSM should be banned, they need to hate those that believe it and use that hatred of those that hold the view they disagree with to unfairly punish their business.

Also, anyone that disagrees with me, is straight up, blinded by their own bias.
 
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Seems to me that the owners of Chick a fil have the right to say whatever stupid, bigoted thing they want short of suggesting violence.

Once having said stupid, bigoted things, the same principles applies to the consequences involved in their saying something stupid and bigoted. Why people seem to think that "free speech" means "freedom from consequences" is anybody's guess, but the fact remains that people ALSO have the right to reject them for their stupidity and bigotry.

Exactly. I'd like to know where businesses I might support stand on moral issues important to me. They have every right to take whatever position they choose, and I have every right to A) know about it, and B) make my decisions regarding their businesses accordingly.
 
You can certainly disagree with the Family Research Council. But is the term "hate group" appropriate for them?

Lying about people with the intent of stirring up hatred against them is certainly the action of a hate group and so they qualify.

If they simply wanted to state that they disagreed with homosexuality because they were uber religious, they would not necessarily qualify. It is the false allegations with the intent of intentional harm that makes them a hate group.
 
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I'm really amazed anyone would support this
 
Ya know im just going out on a limb here but an orgainization that spreads around false information stating that a certain group of people is harmful to society, more likely to molest children, doesnt raise children as well as other groups, doesnt support the equal treatment of that group under that law (quote from their website "We oppose the vigorous efforts of homosexual activists to demand that homosexuality be accepted as equivalent to heterosexuality in law, in the media, and in schools." Human Sexuality Research Area) is probably not saying those things out of love for that group of people.
 
You can certainly disagree with the Family Research Council. But is the term "hate group" appropriate for them?

I find the Bible to be a hate filled book. By extension I find those who arbitrarily adhere to its teachings while emphasizing on hateful passages to be part of a worldwide Christian hate group.

I would think it pointless and foolish, like I think gay conversion camps are pointless and foolish...but I wouldn't consider them a hate group.

You don't have to.
 
Ya know im just going out on a limb here but an orgainization that spreads around false information stating that a certain group of people is harmful to society, more likely to molest children, doesnt raise children as well as other groups, doesnt support the equal treatment of that group under that law (quote from their website "We oppose the vigorous efforts of homosexual activists to demand that homosexuality be accepted as equivalent to heterosexuality in law, in the media, and in schools." Human Sexuality Research Area) is probably not saying those things out of love for that group of people.

`but is it illegal for them to do so?

if john q public wants to boycott chik-fil-a because they disagree with who they support with their money that is fine. but for the govt to deny them a license to run a legal business because of it is another thing.

until the govt passes a law that makes it illegal to support anti-gay organizations, it should not be allowed to deny them based on such support.
 
I find the Bible to be a hate filled book. By extension I find those who arbitrarily adhere to its teachings while emphasizing on hateful passages to be part of a worldwide Christian hate group.

so should the govt, therefore, be allowed to deny business licenses to christian bookstores?
 
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