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Colorado gun sales up after cinema killings

Oh yes, he's just evil. That's a rational approach.
Considering he planned this out for a long time, bobbietraped enough explosive in his apartment to level the whole building, and shot up a movie theater, yes I think calling him evil is perfectly rational.
 
Oh yes, he's just evil. That's a rational approach.

If he's evil, then he's not human, and therefore we don't need to take preventative steps. Humans don't do evil things, so why waste time focusing on non-evil humans? Right?

Logical fallacy.

Why does something have to be to blame? Why cant he just be to blame?
 
A bullet proof vest does not make you superman. If you get hit by a bullet you will feel it and it can still possibly injure you and even break some bones,especially at close range.

Anyone who plans something like this can easily overcome possible threats by ramping up the violence. Like I said, maybe it will be a firebomb next time instead of a tear gas canister. Hard to shoot when your covered in burning gasoline.

Sorry, I don't take for granted that someone will have enough training and ability to take out someone so intent on destruction like Holmes. I'm not gonna place all my eggs in that basket.
 
We have a sever lack of mental health services in many parts of the nation. We also have some of the highest rates of personality disorders and mood disorders in the western world. I'm not saying increasing access to mental health is a cure all, I'm saying it's a better topic to discuss than the idea than we should get more people guns in order to stop another mass shooting.



When did I ever mention new gov't laws? Don't put words in my mouth. There are plenty of ways of expanding mental health services without expanding govt. And besides, mental health is usually under the state government, so what do you care what other states do?

I agree with you second part, too. I'm not advocating one magic bullet to end all crazies.



None of that is remotely what I think should happen. Where do you get that from?

OK, this is your second post about "expanding mental health services" without ANY mention of just what that MEANS. You chide me for not "getting it" yet offer NO explanation AGAIN, for what "it" is. Explain what YOU DO MEAN by "expanding mental health services" and how that DOES NOT involve gov't or tax money and how THIS CASE may have been affected by this "change".
 
Why does something have to be to blame? Why cant he just be to blame?

He is to blame. But calling him "evil" takes away any human traits, and it makes him almost superhuman. He's not Jason Voorhees, he's not Hannibal Lecter. He's a 24 year old man who obviously had a brilliant mind. He also had a dark part of his mind that took over in one way or another.

Calling him evil just takes away any possibility that things like this can be prevented.

It's like calling something an act of god; it assumes it's unpreventable by nature.
 
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OK, this is your second post about "expanding mental health services" without ANY mention of just what that MEANS. You chide me for not "getting it" yet offer NO explanation AGAIN, for what "it" is. Explain what YOU DO MEAN by "expanding mental health services" and how that DOES NOT involve gov't or tax money and how THIS CASE may have been affected by this "change".

It's a rather large, complicated subject. I'd rather not derail the thread like this. I can make a new thread in another forum if you want to go into detail.

But the gist is, we have two problems; an aversion to mental health help, because of various cultural and social norms that prevent many people from seeking help. The other is that in many places in the US, even access to basic mental health services. This term "mental health services" covers wide swath of people and institutions, it can cover anyone from social workers and registered nurses to licensed psychiatrists. We have what some say worrying rates of depression and suicide, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder and other mental health issues. High rates of illness and low rates of care providers is not a good thing.
 
A bullet proof vest does not make you superman. If you get hit by a bullet you will feel it and it can still possibly injure you and even break some bones,especially at close range.

eng3060 / Sub-Process 3 - How Does a Bullet-Proof Vest Stop a Bullet (Aaron Martin)
It's not even certain he was wearing armor at all. This could have been false reporting, intentional or accidental. "Tactical" just means there's pockets, it doesn't mean there's any ballistic protection.
 
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He is to blame. But calling him "evil" takes away any human traits, and it makes him almost superhuman. He's not Jason Voorhees, he's not Hannibal Lecter. He's a 24 year old man who obviously had a brilliant mind. He also had a dark part of his mind that took over in one way or another.

Calling him evil just takes away any possibility that things like this can be prevented.

Things like this can't be prevented, unless you favor mandatory psychological profiling and analysis on the general public. When someone is going through this type of mental change/dysfunction, they don't always even recognize that something is wrong.
 
Why does something have to be to blame? Why cant he just be to blame?

Because then you introduce the "anti-liberal" thought of personal responsibility; if a criminal is simply held responsible for their crime, then there is no "root cause" to launch massive liberal social programs to "fix". If a person is actually responsible for their own actions, then you can not justify rewarding INDIVIDUAL (educational, social and economic) failure with welfare, you must make it seem that SOCIETY has somehow that failed the individual, then you can "fix" it with a liberal social program.
 
He is to blame. But calling him "evil" takes away any human traits, and it makes him almost superhuman. He's not Jason Voorhees, he's not Hannibal Lecter. He's a 24 year old man who obviously had a brilliant mind. He also had a dark part of his mind that took over in one way or another.

Calling him evil just takes away any possibility that things like this can be prevented.

It's like calling something an act of god; it assumes it's unpreventable by nature.

What makes you think it is preventable at all?
 
What makes you think it is preventable at all?
Well, his actions were obviously the effect of one or more causes. Should we find out what those causes are, it may be possible to prevent future situations like this by eliminating or altering those causes.
 
Things like this can't be prevented, unless you favor mandatory psychological profiling and analysis on the general public. When someone is going through this type of mental change/dysfunction, they don't always even recognize that something is wrong.

Just to be clear, I was differentiating between two lines of thought; I was addressing the info in the OP that guns sales were up. IMO that's an overreaction to the situation, and also think that if we're discussing ways that provide any possibility of reducing actions like Holmes', increasing armed citizens would be near the bottom of the list.

I prefer a discussion of mental health over a discussion about arming citizens, but keep in mind I don't think just one thing is the problem.
 
im sure they do... :roll:

On Gun Control, Carolyn McCarthy Says Obama Should Use Executive Authority

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) said Tuesday that President Barack Obama should use his executive authority to reform gun laws, something that former President Bill Clinton has already shown is possible.

McCarthy told reporters at the press event that the NRA "does intimidate many, many members," and afterward, she said lawmakers give too much credit to the NRA. Asked if she thinks Congress is just plain "chicken" when it comes to crossing the gun lobby, she said plainly, "Yes."

yep..they. :roll:
 
Why do liberals bend over backwards to avoid actually blaming the person who was pulling the trigger?
 
Why does something have to be to blame? Why cant he just be to blame?
Well, nothing "has" to be the blame. However, if we're dealing with reality, no actions exist in a vacuum and most people's actions are the effects of many causes so things outside of him will contributed to his actions. That's just a fact. The will doesn't exist independent of genetics and environment.
 
Why do liberals bend over backwards to avoid actually blaming the person who was pulling the trigger?

Two different subjects.

Holmes already did what he did. 12 people are dead so far, and he'll be in prison his whole life, if not given the death penalty. He's clearly guilty and deserves everything he gets.

The other subject is what led him to do what he did and what we might be able to do differently.






My state of CO is home to two of the worst mass shooting in US. We don't want that title.
 
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I don't know if it was.

But I do know just calling something evil doesn't help one bit.
Agreed. It's just a way for people to dismiss what they don't understand or what they are afraid of. It's kind of like people who assume that if they can't understand where something came from, "God did it." It does nothing to help humanity solve problems.
 
Well, his actions were obviously the effect of one or more causes. Should we find out what those causes are, it may be possible to prevent future situations like this by eliminating or altering those causes.

Based on what? We don't know what his actions were the effect of. A person can just want to cause death and destruction. There does not have to be anything more to it than that. What is this guy going to say that is going to realistically shed any light on anything or change anything?
 
Agreed. It's just a way for people to dismiss what they don't understand or what they are afraid of. It's kind of like people who assume that if they can't understand where something came from, "God did it." It does nothing to help humanity solve problems.

A good way to solve humanities problems would be to eliminate these guys causing these problems. I havent seen anyone, not one person on this thread or any other until you claiming god did it. I thought I have been very clear. God didnt do this shooting. Neither did the NRA, the FDA the pharmecuticals companies, the tea party, ows, the church, his parent, the theater or anyone else everyone is trying to pin this on. One person was to blame for this shooting. 1. uno. thats it. No more. And that person should be given a trial and then promptly executed unless it cannot be proven that he pulled that trigger. That is all there should be to it.
 
Based on what? We don't know what his actions were the effect of. A person can just want to cause death and destruction. There does not have to be anything more to it than that. What is this guy going to say that is going to realistically shed any light on anything or change anything?

Call the Aurora police, call off the investigation. Let Capt Dan Oates know that muciti thinks that nothing needs to be learned or understood from the tragedy.

Wrap it up, boys. Let's go home.

Lol, c'mon man. Really?
 
Based on what? We don't know what his actions were the effect of. A person can just want to cause death and destruction. There does not have to be anything more to it than that.
What you're describing does not line up with reality. Actions do not exist in a vacuum. They, like everything, have causes. If you don't think his actions were caused by anything, then you aren't operating in reality. Now, whether those causes could have been altered is up for debate.

What is this guy going to say that is going to realistically shed any light on anything or change anything?
I don't know if he will say anything that will help. However, if we find out what caused his actions and if his life shares preventable patterns with those who have committed similar crimes, then his words might help us in the future.
 
It's a rather large, complicated subject. I'd rather not derail the thread like this. I can make a new thread in another forum if you want to go into detail.

But the gist is, we have two problems; an aversion to mental health help, because of various cultural and social norms that prevent many people from seeking help. The other is that in many places in the US, even access to basic mental health services. This term "mental health services" covers wide swath of people and institutions, it can cover anyone from social workers and registered nurses to licensed psychiatrists. We have what some say worrying rates of depression and suicide, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder and other mental health issues. High rates of illness and low rates of care providers is not a good thing.

OK, here is the rub. If you even talk to a "mental health" professional, then you MAY be placed onto the national "loony list" sure to be included in the famous "background checks" that liberals want to use to "exclude" 2nd amendment rights from being granted to the "wrong" citizens. Once you make things into gov't datbases, like ALL "health care" records (PPACA?) then the next step is EASY, simply access them "for the good (safety?) of society" and then it becomes DANGEROUS for you to seek ANY mental health services as that means you will LIKELY be disarmed, possibly forever, if not "cured" or certified as such. I would not at be surpirsed at all if the Batman killer had not seen a "menatl health" professional (or even several of them), as it seems that his social and professional life was a complete mess, possibly for all of his adult years.
 
Calling him evil just takes away any possibility that things like this can be prevented.

It's like calling something an act of god; it assumes it's unpreventable by nature.
As unstoppable as the lone-wolf terrorist, because they're virtually undetectable. Yes, long ago I accepted the fact that the world will never be without crime. Try as we may, we will never be able to prevent 100% of all crime. Sometimes the bad guy is very smart and knows how to play the system, and he get's through. When he does, the citizen needs to be ready.

There is nothing which could have been don to prevent this crime, **** happens. What could have been don, what should have been don, is an armed theater audience returning fire to minimize the crime, hopefully killing the assailant in the process.

We don't need your nanny-state socialist bull**** policies. We need a strong, vibrant, responsible gun-culture. This is what all evidence demonstrates lowers crime. Save you bull**** for some 3rd world warlord America hasn't killed yet.
 
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