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Penn State sanctions: $60M, bowl ban

I kind of have a problem with the $60 million fine. What's to guarantee that they won't make students who were completely uninvolved with the football program pay for the fine by hiking tuition?

The rest of it, I'm fine with. It's harsh, but then again it should be, to send a very clear message that it's not okay to cover this kind of crap up for the sake of your football program.
 
Hatuey said:
Yes and hitting the institution with a fine and banning all current sports administration members from NCAA sports would suffice. To continue to punish them 4 years from now for something their players in 2016 had nothing to do with is extreme.
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The reason why the enablers deserve their punishment is that enabling was what made this scandal happen in the first place. "Happy Valley's" reaction to Joe Paterno--some people STILL think he's a great guy--nauseates me. Infuriates me. The crocodile tears I saw on SportsCenter this morning in reaction to the sanctions? Really? You get your team severely punished, and YOU'RE the ones who think you've been violated? Really?

If this truly were a tit-for-tat, even-steven punishment, the entire university would be shut down tomorrow. That'd be about even. That'd be about square. Not saying that I advocate for this--I don't--but when the Paterno apologists whine that they've been dealt too heavy of a hand, I say go cry me a river.
 
Phys251 said:
If this truly were a tit-for-tat, even-steven punishment, the entire university would be shut down tomorrow. That'd be about even. That'd be about square. Not saying that I advocate for this--I don't--but when the Paterno apologists whine that they've been dealt too heavy of a hand, I say go cry me a river.
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It would harm far more if the university were shut down. Those students who are seeking an education should not be forced to suffer the consequences of the criminal acts of various 'stars' attached to the school. Administrators and coaches who aided and facilitated the coverup should be facing criminal charges. The money provided for the Paterno family should be returned to the school to provide scholarships for non-athletes, for those students who use their time in the classroom and labs to gain an education.

Forcing the school to play at Div III level with the greatly lessened expenditures found at that level, might cause some supporters of top-level athletics to rethink their adulation of certain coaches.
 
Hugh_Akston said:
Penn State Nittany Lions hit with $60 million fine, 4-year bowl ban, wins dating to 1998 - ESPN
WOW! Is this too much, just right or too light? I would rather see those responsible punished than the entire institution, but it is what it is. At least the money will be going to a worthwhile cause, and it would say a lot if Penn State would spend more money towards the endowment being created.
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It is a big penalty.

It was a pretty egregious case though. Weren't there years of covering up child rape?
That's a bfd. The penalty should be commensurate. The penalty should be a bfd as well.
 
The ESPN coverage of the students and alumni at the university reminded me why I still have problems with fans and alumni when dealing with matters that involve, but are larger than, sports.
 
Hatuey said:
I wonder how many of those advocating that the central Penn State administration is to blame would make the same accusations of the Catholic Church's coverups of THOUSANDS of such incidents.
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I would and so do other Catholics I know. There's plenty of apologists out there, but there are indeed many of us who are disgusted.
 
Somerville said:
It would harm far more if the university were shut down. Those students who are seeking an education should not be forced to suffer the consequences of the criminal acts of various 'stars' attached to the school. Administrators and coaches who aided and facilitated the coverup should be facing criminal charges. The money provided for the Paterno family should be returned to the school to provide scholarships for non-athletes, for those students who use their time in the classroom and labs to gain an education.

Forcing the school to play at Div III level with the greatly lessened expenditures found at that level, might cause some supporters of top-level athletics to rethink their adulation of certain coaches.
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But they were part of the culture of enabling. Just as all of Germany was punished after World War II (yes, sue me, I'm a slave to Godwin's Law), the school should not be held immune simply because they did not directly participate in the problem. They enabled it with their culture of "Happy Valley" and "We Are Penn State," and that is reason enough that they do not deserve to be spared. Besides, losing a football team is pittance compared to what the children suffered. Having the football program gutted is as bad as child molestation? The way some enablers have reacted, one would think so.
 
Phys251 said:
But they were part of the culture of enabling. Just as all of Germany was punished after World War II (yes, sue me, I'm a slave to Godwin's Law), the school should not be held immune simply because they did not directly participate in the problem. They enabled it with their culture of "Happy Valley" and "We Are Penn State," and that is reason enough that they do not deserve to be spared. Besides, losing a football team is pittance compared to what the children suffered. Having the football program gutted is as bad as child molestation? The way some enablers have reacted, one would think so.
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How were the students "part of the enabling"? Did they know about Sandusky's repeated crimes or Joe Paterno's protection of the man? Did they know of the actions taken by the university president and board of trustees? C'mon, be realistic here. Sure part of being a Penn State student was feeling the 'power' of the school's football team but not every student felt like that. I went to a couple of those Div 1 schools while getting my degrees but I don't think I attended more than 3 or 4 games in the eight years I was at those schools. There were many like me who just didn't care that much, university was for learning the subjects we studied not adulating a coach and the scholarship athletes. I am sure there are many at Penn State who feel the same today.

Your attitude is rather biblical.
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
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Somerville said:
How were the students "part of the enabling"? Did they know about Sandusky's repeated crimes or Joe Paterno's protection of the man? Did they know of the actions taken by the university president and board of trustees? C'mon, be realistic here. Sure part of being a Penn State student was feeling the 'power' of the school's football team but not every student felt like that. I went to a couple of those Div 1 schools while getting my degrees but I don't think I attended more than 3 or 4 games in the eight years I was at those schools. There were many like me who just didn't care that much, university was for learning the subjects we studied not adulating a coach and the scholarship athletes. I am sure there are many at Penn State who feel the same today.

Your attitude is rather biblical.
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Have you been keeping up with this story? Have you seen and heard the sheer volume of enabling on part of the fans and "supporters"? I've never seen anything like this in my life. Here this institution had a known pedophile in its ranks and chose to cover it up. And what has been the predominant voice from Penn State fans? "Support the team." "Don't remove the statue." And further BS. Whatever outcry against the cover-up itself seemed to be covered up, which was exactly the problem in the first place. This brings me to the crux of my argument: The enablers are doing the same to the program as the program did to Sandusky.

As for those who don't care about football, well then, this should sting for awhile and then pass. I hate it for them, but there are far, far worse things in life than losing a football team. Such as being sexually abused.
 
The collateral damage to innocent people from criminals is always unfortunate. I just don't know why the anger isn't directed at Sandusky and Paterno.
 
tessaesque said:
It's a public university. That would be like saying we should cease all funding to the DOD 'cause a few soldiers and their superiors tried to cover up the Koran-pissing incident.
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I don't think so. Your analogy is absurd. The soldier pissing on an inanimate object incident is nothing like the climategate and sodomizing little kids incidents.
 
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The NCAA is shocked! shocked! to find that a sport could come to so dominate an academic institution that this sort of evil could go unchecked for years. :roll:

I'm for individual responsiblity. Find out who is criminally liable and prosecute them. Find out who is civilly liable and sue them into bankruptcy. If we are going to punish institutions then the NCAA deserves punishment, also. And the news media. And all the sports fans. They have helped to foster this attitude of winning at all costs as much as any institution has.

Big college football is a racket that has no real connection with academics other than money. It is a relationship that corrupts all the big Universities, not just Penn, so end it. Sever the sport from the schools, let the major league teams pay to maintain farm teams, and keep college sports at the intramural level.
 
All those "harsh penalties" that Penn State got? Turns out they could have been a lot worse. As in, a four-year death penalty.
 
Phys251 said:
All those "harsh penalties" that Penn State got? Turns out they could have been a lot worse. As in, a four-year death penalty.
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That is THE ONLY reason that Penn State accepted the punishment that they were handed. They didn't accept it because they agree with it or are ok with it. After receiving their punishment, Penn State officials weren't saying "Okay, thank you NCAA. Gee this is fantastic!", behind closed doors. It was much more along the lines of "F*** you Mark Emmert, I hope someone skins you alive and dumps you in a pile of salt!"

The NCAA acted prematurely in punishing Penn State. Why would they not wait until all of the criminal court cases are decided by a jury before they act? One guy's report does not prove guilt. Also, why would the NCAA not do their own investigation, like they always do before sanctioning a school?
 
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The Man said:
That is THE ONLY reason that Penn State accepted the punishment that they were handed. They didn't accept it because they agree with it or are ok with it. After receiving their punishment, Penn State officials weren't saying "Okay, thank you NCAA. Gee this is fantastic!", behind closed doors. It was much more along the lines of "F*** you Mark Emmert, I hope someone skins you alive and dumps you in a pile of salt!"

The NCAA acted prematurely in punishing Penn State. Why would they not wait until all of the criminal court cases are decided by a jury before they act? One guy's report does not prove guilt. Also, why would the NCAA not do their own investigation, like they always do before sanctioning a school?
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Because they didn't have time to wait. It would have been a disaster of epic proportions to wait until after the football season started. This was the worst scandal in college sports history, period. The NCAA absolutely needed to send a message that this simply cannot ever happen again under their watch. A football program and people's egos are tiny prices to pay for that protection.
 
Phys251 said:
Because they didn't have time to wait. It would have been a disaster of epic proportions to wait until after the football season started. This was the worst scandal in college sports history, period. The NCAA absolutely needed to send a message that this simply cannot ever happen again under their watch. A football program and people's egos are tiny prices to pay for that protection.
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Have you ever heard of the Duke Lacrosse scandal? Those guys were certainly, definitely, without a doubt 100% guilty... Until it was proven in a court of law that they were absolutely, 100% not guilty.

It's likely a far fetched scenario (and remember, the defendants in the Duke Lacrosse case being innocent was a far fetched scenario as well), but say the same sort of thing plays out in this case, and Paterno, Schultz, Curley and Spanier are found to be not guilty and they didn't cover up anything. The NCAA/Mark Emmert would be in a world of hurt if that happened. Again, it's a long shot, and not likely to happen, but you'd think that the NCAA would make sure they were 100% positive, as in guilty verdicts handed down by a jury in a court of law, before they dealt such a penalty to a school. But, they are not 100% positive. They acted based on one guy's report.
 
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The Man said:
Have you ever heard of the Duke Lacrosse scandal? Those guys were certainly, definitely, without a doubt 100% guilty... Until it was proven in a court of law that they were absolutely, 100% not guilty.

It's likely a far fetched scenario (and remember, the defendants in the Duke Lacrosse case being innocent was a far fetched scenario as well), but say the same sort of thing plays out in this case, and Paterno, Schultz, Curley and Spanier are found to be not guilty and they didn't cover up anything. The NCAA/Mark Emmert would be in a world of hurt if that happened. Again, it's a long shot, and not likely to happen, but you'd think that the NCAA would make sure they were 100% positive, as in guilty verdicts handed down by a jury in a court of law, before they dealt such a penalty to a school. But, they are not 100% positive. They acted based on one guy's report.
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Terrible comparison. The charges in the Duke Lacrosse case were dropped after it was revealed that the investigation was a complete sham and there was no compelling evidence against the players. By contrast, Jerry Sandusky currently sits in prison, convicted of 45 counts related to sexual molestation, and the going bet that it will stay that way is right about 100%. Furthermore, there was none of this cover-up culture at Duke that Penn State had. The Duke Lacrosse Scandal came out of nowhere, and that university wasn't dumb enough to cover up the investigation and evidence when it got underway. Penn State, on the other hand, had administrators that knew what Sandusky was doing yet swept it all under the rug, continuing to brainwash their followers with this whole "Happy Valley" crap. And now we're seeing the withdrawal symptoms of their fans, who seem to have more sympathy for a freakin' football program than for the abused boys. Unbelievable.
 
Phys251 said:
Penn State, on the other hand, had administrators that knew what Sandusky was doing yet swept it all under the rug, continuing to brainwash their followers with this whole "Happy Valley" crap. And now we're seeing the withdrawal symptoms of their fans, who seem to have more sympathy for a freakin' football program than for the abused boys. Unbelievable.
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That's not the case at all. The fans aren't happy with what happened at all and the overwhelming majority care about the boys far more than the football program. But they, like me, have the mindset that you punish those responsible, not punish so many more for the actions of a few. I felt the punishment was a tad harsh, but it is what it is. The sad part is that no matter what the punishment is, it isn't going to change what happened to all those boys over the years. They have emotional scars that no amount of money, vacated wins, statues torn down or scholarships taken away will ever heal.

This was a bad deal all around and the cover up by Paterno and certain members of the administration is despicable. The fans, the community around Penn State and current players who had nothing to do with any of this are having to deal with the NCAA's iron fist ruling. The saying goes something like "You don't throw out the baby with the bath water", well the NCAA might have just done that to a lesser degree than a death penalty. Don't knock the fans for supporting their school.

As a Pacer fan, I've supported my team ever since the brawl. I don't hold anyone responsible for the brawl except for those who took part in it. You don't go after the organization for the actions of a few employees. But what we have here is the NCAA making an example of Penn State, which is pretty ironic as corrupt an organization as the NCAA is. The one statement that I do agree with that came from the NCAA on this is that college football should never take a priority over the educational duty of the university (I'm paraphrasing here). But it does, it has and it will continue to do so. It will because college football is big business and the NCAA has let this happen. Much like the MLB is guilty of letting the steroid era go on and on because of the money and ratings that they so desperately craved, the NCAA has allowed the football program to dictate the direction that universities have taken.
 
Phys251 said:
Terrible comparison. The charges in the Duke Lacrosse case were dropped after it was revealed that the investigation was a complete sham and there was no compelling evidence against the players. By contrast, Jerry Sandusky currently sits in prison, convicted of 45 counts related to sexual molestation, and the going bet that it will stay that way is right about 100%. Furthermore, there was none of this cover-up culture at Duke that Penn State had. The Duke Lacrosse Scandal came out of nowhere, and that university wasn't dumb enough to cover up the investigation and evidence when it got underway. Penn State, on the other hand, had administrators that knew what Sandusky was doing yet swept it all under the rug, continuing to brainwash their followers with this whole "Happy Valley" crap. And now we're seeing the withdrawal symptoms of their fans, who seem to have more sympathy for a freakin' football program than for the abused boys. Unbelievable.
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But it's not a terrible comparison. Sandusky is 100% guilty, we know that because it has been proven in a court of law, decided by a jury. Sandusky's crimes aren't the reason that Penn State is being punished. They're being punished for the cover up of those crimes by a few individuals, and at this point in time it is just alleged, not yet proven in a court of law. Why would the NCAA act without proof?
 
The Man said:
But it's not a terrible comparison. Sandusky is 100% guilty, we know that because it has been proven in a court of law, decided by a jury. Sandusky's crimes aren't the reason that Penn State is being punished. They're being punished for the cover up of those crimes by a few individuals, and at this point in time it is just alleged, not yet proven in a court of law. Why would the NCAA act without proof?
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The punishment should probably have waited until the dust settled. Who knows, maybe when this is all said and done, the NCAA will realize the punishment wasn't enough.

I'm torn here. I hate the mentality "punish everyone instead of the few," but it's hard not to understand why. The University as a whole may not be guilty, but those in charge are, and if they were the only ones punished, then what would stop the University from hiring morally corrupt individuals again? Nothing. I am not going to argue in favor or against the punishment because, honestly, there isn't a punishment big enough to heal anyone's pain. That's not going to happen until everyone who is personally affected is dead and gone. Maybe not even then.
 
Chaddelamancha said:
The punishment should probably have waited until the dust settled. Who knows, maybe when this is all said and done, the NCAA will realize the punishment wasn't enough.

I'm torn here. I hate the mentality "punish everyone instead of the few," but it's hard not to understand why. The University as a whole may not be guilty, but those in charge are, and if they were the only ones punished, then what would stop the University from hiring morally corrupt individuals again? Nothing. I am not going to argue in favor or against the punishment because, honestly, there isn't a punishment big enough to heal anyone's pain. That's not going to happen until everyone who is personally affected is dead and gone. Maybe not even then.
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I'm not arguing that Penn State's punishment is too harsh, I don't even think it's really that bad of a punishment and it won't effect their football team too badly at all. I just think that punishment was handed down prematurely.

Again, Penn State is not being punished by the NCAA for Sandusky's crimes. Penn State is being punished by the NCAA for a few individuals allegedly covering up Sandusky's crimes. None of those individuals has yet been found guilty in a court of law of covering up Sandusky's crimes, so there isn't anything for the NCAA to punish yet.
 
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The Man said:
But it's not a terrible comparison. Sandusky is 100% guilty, we know that because it has been proven in a court of law, decided by a jury. Sandusky's crimes aren't the reason that Penn State is being punished. They're being punished for the cover up of those crimes by a few individuals, and at this point in time it is just alleged, not yet proven in a court of law. Why would the NCAA act without proof?
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To claim that is to claim that the Freeh Report may be false. The burden is on you to prove that.
 
Phys251 said:
To claim that is to claim that the Freeh Report may be false. The burden is on you to prove that.
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No, the burden is on the prosecution to prove, in a court of law, that Paterno, Schultz, Curley and Spanier covered up Sandusky's crimes. That's not Louis Freeh's job, and his report doesn't prove anything.

Have you even read the Freeh report? Read the entire thing, not just the snippets that the media gives us in the news.
 
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