• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

Romulus said:
You can obfuscate Obama's thesis all you want, we know he is no Adam Smith or F.A. Hayek. He's a Keynesian with socialist tendencies whose epistemology has never been challenged within his academic bubble.
Click to expand...

In many ways Adam Smith would be considered a socialist today (or at least by the American definition of socialism).
 
Romulus said:
I only "cling" to guns and agnosticism. Obama's lack of leadership skills are observable and evidenced by his vacillation during crises such as the Gulf oil spill, uprising in Iran, the failed surge in Afghanistan, our looming debt crises, the EUs looming debt crises, ICBM and nuclear development in Iran and N. Korea, and Hillary's snuke among many many others. His lack of intellectual prowess is exhibited when he makes snobbish remarks (such as the subject of this thread) that should only be uttered under hushed tones in the living room of a humanities professors and unrepentant Marxist terrorists (Ayers reference).

The number one issue right now?

Unemployment.

What has Obama done about it?

Ignored His Own Jobs Council For Six Months

I rest my case.
Click to expand...

First off...that was a rather pathetic dodge, or a very poorly veiled tail between the legs bow out.

You stated this " He's a Keynesian with socialist tendencies whose epistemology has never been challenged within his academic bubble. "

I replied with this: " It truly is astounding that people still cling to such feeble and disproven comments to debase the President. Even more amazing would be the self imposed projected ignorance these comments paint. One can assume either pure ignorance, or something far worse."

So you completely change subjects, and fall back to a well rehearsed (and unprovable)...But Obama Hasn't Fixed Everything, and we would all be better off IF he had done xxxx.

Just admit you made a poor post, and we can debate your next one.
 
Romulus said:
I only "cling" to guns and agnosticism. Obama's lack of leadership skills are observable and evidenced by his vacillation during crises such as the Gulf oil spill, uprising in Iran, the failed surge in Afghanistan, our looming debt crises, the EUs looming debt crises, ICBM and nuclear development in Iran and N. Korea, and Hillary's snuke among many many others. His lack of intellectual prowess is exhibited when he makes snobbish remarks (such as the subject of this thread) that should only be uttered under hushed tones in the living room of a humanities professors and unrepentant Marxist terrorists (Ayers reference).

The number one issue right now?

Unemployment.

What has Obama done about it?

Ignored His Own Jobs Council For Six Months

I rest my case.
Click to expand...

I love how you sweepingly list some of the most complicated, long-standing and entrenched issues in the world today and then assume that Obama can just wag around a little leadership and the problems will go away. I'm afraid these issues are not as easily solved as you are implying.
Also-please tell me, exactly, why you believe Obama's remarks to be Marxist? I would like some actual quotes from the speech, please, not just your word for it!
 
zeusomally said:
I love how you sweepingly list some of the most complicated, long-standing and entrenched issues in the world today and then assume that Obama can just wag around a little leadership and the problems will go away. I'm afraid these issues are not as easily solved as you are implying.
Also-please tell me, exactly, why you believe Obama's remarks to be Marxist? I would like some actual quotes from the speech, please, not just your word for it!
Click to expand...

when he said "you did not build that" , what was to follow that comment? logically the next step would be: since you did not build it, you are not entitled to the profits and must share them with the rest of us. Obama is a marxist redistributionist. Its quite obvious in his demonization of the rich and successful.
 
I am new to this thread and have noted that I have the option to "like" only some of the posts, and not others. Is there a reason for this? I can't find any pattern to it.
 
zstep18 said:
In many ways Adam Smith would be considered a socialist today (or at least by the American definition of socialism).
Click to expand...

If you say so. That topic would be extraneous to my point, which is that Obama wants more government intervention into the economy and I want less. That's what his speech was about and what this thread is about.
 
tecoyah said:
First off...that was a rather pathetic dodge, or a very poorly veiled tail between the legs bow out.

You stated this " He's a Keynesian with socialist tendencies whose epistemology has never been challenged within his academic bubble. "

I replied with this: " It truly is astounding that people still cling to such feeble and disproven comments to debase the President. Even more amazing would be the self imposed projected ignorance these comments paint. One can assume either pure ignorance, or something far worse."

So you completely change subjects, and fall back to a well rehearsed (and unprovable)...But Obama Hasn't Fixed Everything, and we would all be better off IF he had done xxxx.

Just admit you made a poor post, and we can debate your next one.
Click to expand...

I know socialists tend to be sensitive to being called socialists so I tried to be generous and call Obama primarily a Keynesian. You can repackage his policies in your favorite euphemisms if choose. How about I say, 'Obama is for deficit spending in attempt to stimulate the economy during a recession, and for more government control or ownership over market production'.

There, I hope that sounds better.

They are still failed policies from stale dis-proven ideologies.
 
Bobcat said:
when he said "you did not build that" , what was to follow that comment? logically the next step would be: since you did not build it, you are not entitled to the profits and must share them with the rest of us. Obama is a marxist redistributionist. Its quite obvious in his demonization of the rich and successful.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that is what he was saying at all. First of all, I am sure that by now you realize that when he said "You did not build that" that he was referring to ROADS and BRIDGES, and not the business himself.
As far a Obama being a Marxist, there is nothing in his speech(or any other speech that he has made) that suggests that we should not maintain a strong capitalist/market system in this country. In a Marxist system there is no room for capitalism, and Obama has always been clear that he is a big proponent of capitalism.
I would agree with you, however, if you suggested that his comments hinted at the value and power of social collectivism. Certainly Obama believes, more so than many of the conservative business interests in this country, that government can and should provide a climate(infrastructure, schools, regulatory agencies, military, judicial system etc.) which will ultimately lay down soils upon which individual initiative(he actually mentions that very word in this speech) can have fertile ground in which to be sprout into successful businesses.
It's really not that radical of a concept: There are things that the free market is best left to, and things that the government is best left to and they both need one another to be successful. And, for the reasons that collective government has aided them in this regard, business leaders have a moral obligation to operate in the best interests of the society at large-not merely their own short-term economic interests. That's not Marxism, that's just common sense.
 
Romulus said:
I know socialists tend to be sensitive to being called socialists so I tried to be generous and call Obama primarily a Keynesian. You can repackage his policies in your favorite euphemisms if choose. How about I say, 'Obama is for deficit spending in attempt to stimulate the economy during a recession, and for more government control or ownership over market production'.

There, I hope that sounds better.

They are still failed policies from stale dis-proven ideologies.
Click to expand...
I am not sensitive being called a "socialist". What I am sensitive to is when conservatives incorrectly define socialism and, more significantly, fail to recognize that it is possible to be a socialist and a capitalist at the same time. In other words, the two political philosophies are not necessarily exclusive to one another. Only the most foolish among us would suggest that any effective("effective" as in just and true to human dignity and rights) government cannot be left merely to the free market. The debate most reasonable people are actually having today is not whether we need elements of both systems, but where the balance lies between the two. Very reasonable people can have disagreements on this matter.
 
kamikaze483 said:
At a campaign stop in Roanoke, VA, Obama takes a shot at entreprenuers and small business owners, suggesting that they are not responsible for the success of their own businesses.

IMO, blatant comments such as these show the disrespect that Obama has for ingenuity, resourcefulness, and hard work. I do not think comments such as these will benefit him among independent and other swing voters.

Also, I find it interesting that no other major news outlet other than Fox News picked up this story. Interesting, but not surprising.

Quoting Obama,




Obama to business owners: 'You didn't build that' | Fox News
Click to expand...

Because Fox took it out of context with intentional deceit ... he was saying the surrounding infrastructure supported small business and it does. Fact. We are all interconnected to each other ... our infrastructure and our businesses. My business is heavily relaint off a strong infrastructure and a mixed economy. obama is center right on business and believes in a mixed economy for a strong America.
 
zeusomally said:
I love how you sweepingly list some of the most complicated, long-standing and entrenched issues in the world today and then assume that Obama can just wag around a little leadership and the problems will go away. I'm afraid these issues are not as easily solved as you are implying.
Also-please tell me, exactly, why you believe Obama's remarks to be Marxist? I would like some actual quotes from the speech, please, not just your word for it!
Click to expand...

Obama doesn't have the intellectual fortitude to understand Marx, I was referencing his buddy Bill Ayers. No one expects Obama to solve all the issues mentioned, I just resent the fact I have to thank God for Clinton and Holbrooke.
 
zeusomally said:
What I am sensitive to is when conservatives incorrectly define socialism and, more significantly, fail to recognize that it is possible to be a socialist and a capitalist at the same time.
Click to expand...

Wait . . . you're "sensitive" to people mis-defining "socialism," and you believe the bolded part?
 
zeusomally said:
I am not sensitive being called a "socialist". What I am sensitive to is when conservatives incorrectly define socialism and, more significantly, fail to recognize that it is possible to be a socialist and a capitalist at the same time. In other words, the two political philosophies are not necessarily exclusive to one another. Only the most foolish among us would suggest that any effective("effective" as in just and true to human dignity and rights) government cannot be left merely to the free market. The debate most reasonable people are actually having today is not whether we need elements of both systems, but where the balance lies between the two. Very reasonable people can have disagreements on this matter.
Click to expand...

I agree that we disagree. No what department to you want to abolish?
 
Bobcat said:
when he said "you did not build that" , what was to follow that comment? logically the next step would be: since you did not build it, you are not entitled to the profits and must share them with the rest of us. Obama is a marxist redistributionist. Its quite obvious in his demonization of the rich and successful.
Click to expand...

Interesting leap...unfortunately, personal interpretation and extrapolation from a somewhat warped mind do not equate to a reality. Your understanding of "Logic" may be a bit compromised with inherent bias and pre-conceived partisanship.

You seem irrelevant to this debate.
 
Romulus said:
Obama doesn't have the intellectual fortitude to understand Marx, I was referencing his buddy Bill Ayers. No one expects Obama to solve all the issues mentioned, I just resent the fact I have to thank God for Clinton and Holbrooke.
Click to expand...

Wow...we had no Idea you know the president, let alone well enough to evaluate his "Intellectual Fortitude", (did the formation of those words hurt your brain?). Tell me, as I have wondered for awhile....does he like hotwings?
 
zeusomally said:
I don't believe that is what he was saying at all. First of all, I am sure that by now you realize that when he said "You did not build that" that he was referring to ROADS and BRIDGES, and not the business
Click to expand...



So now Obama wants to take credit for building the roads and bridges? I don't remember seeing him with a shovel on a road construction crew.
 
Dion said:
Because Fox took it out of context with intentional deceit ... he was saying the surrounding infrastructure supported small business and it does. Fact. We are all interconnected to each other ... our infrastructure and our businesses. My business is heavily relaint off a strong infrastructure and a mixed economy. obama is center right on business and believes in a mixed economy for a strong America.
Click to expand...

NONSENSE. Obama believes that those making over $200/250K should pay more taxes, which he JUSTIFIES by implying that they get more "benefit" from infrasturcture, therefore they owe a virtually unlimitted "fair" share of taxation. Obama sees the federal defict as primarily a revenue problem yet has not increased taxes AT ALL since he was in office (except for unfunded mandates and some PPACA "fees"). Obama CONSTANTLY rants about the "Bush" tax rates that HE, HIMSELF extended and signed into law. To assert that PPACA could pass congress, yet not a change in ANY FIT rates is INSANE; Obama wants only to blame someone else NOW for his EARLIER inaction. Obama can not explain how raising $85 billion more in taxes from "the rich" would create (or save) even ONE job, except maybe his own. ;-)
 
Last edited:
ttwtt78640 said:
NONSENSE. Obama believes that those making over $200/250K should pay more taxes, which he JUSTIFIES by implying that they get more "benefit" from infrasturcture, therefore they owe a virtually unlimitted "fair" share of taxation. Obama sees the federal defict as primarily a revenue problem yet has not increased taxes AT ALL since he was in office (except for unfunded mandates and some PPACA "fees"). Obama CONSTANTLY rants about the "Bush" tax rates that HE, HIMSELF extended and signed into law. To assert that PPACA could pass congress, yet not a change in ANY FIT rates is INSANE; Obama wants only to blame someone else NOW for his EARLIER inaction. Obama can not explain how raising $85 billion more in taxes from "the rich" would create (or save) even ONE job, except maybe his own. ;-)
Click to expand...

I agree that Obama has handled this issue very poorly. He said one thing and did another on tax raises. He backed down at least twice when he drew the line and then let the other side convince him to retreat and wave the white flag.

There is nothing to be proud of in the Obama tax record on tax increases.

The time is now to change. We need to let the Bush/Obama tax cuts expire across the board.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
NONSENSE. Obama believes that those making over $200/250K should pay more taxes, which he JUSTIFIES by implying that they get more "benefit" from infrasturcture, therefore they owe a virtually unlimitted "fair" share of taxation. Obama sees the federal defict as primarily a revenue problem yet has not increased taxes AT ALL since he was in office (except for unfunded mandates and some PPACA "fees"). Obama CONSTANTLY rants about the "Bush" tax rates that HE, HIMSELF extended and signed into law. To assert that PPACA could pass congress, yet not a change in ANY FIT rates is INSANE; Obama wants only to blame someone else NOW for his EARLIER inaction. Obama can not explain how raising $85 billion more in taxes from "the rich" would create (or save) even ONE job, except maybe his own. ;-)
Click to expand...

Wow...we had no Idea you know the president, let alone well enough to evaluate his "Intellectual Fortitude", (did the formation of those words hurt your brain?). Tell me, as I have wondered for awhile....does he like hotwings?
 
zeusomally said:
What I am sensitive to is when conservatives incorrectly define socialism and, more significantly, fail to recognize that it is possible to be a socialist and a capitalist at the same time.
Click to expand...

I think you should learn about the two ideas as evidenced by the following statement and this one..

zeusomally said:
It's really not that radical of a concept: There are things that the free market is best left to, and things that the government is best left to and they both need one another to be successful.
Click to expand...

That argument you just made has it roots in the socialist movement. What it says is the market has an obligation to meet some higher purpose than it lies out. That a certain service is unfit or unfair to the people if the market runs it as such and such service has a high importance to the people and the society as a whole so we as a society can't afford it to be left to the businessman. It's entirely rooted in the movement itself. You might have noticed that Obama used it when talking about healthcare.

And, for the reasons that collective government has aided them in this regard, business leaders have a moral obligation to operate in the best interests of the society at large-not merely their own short-term economic interests. That's not Marxism, that's just common sense.
Click to expand...

No, that is the argument for taxes made by those like yourself.
 
Last edited:
If Obama is saying the taxes need to be raised in order to fund road repairs, then maybe we should just let the roads fall apart. It's just plain wrong to increase taxes.
 
tecoyah said:
Wow...we had no Idea you know the president, let alone well enough to evaluate his "Intellectual Fortitude", (did the formation of those words hurt your brain?). Tell me, as I have wondered for awhile....does he like hotwings?
Click to expand...

Where he lacks leadership on issues that matter, he has a preference towards hotwings at aimless beer summits over trivial issues.
 
Romulus said:
How about I say, 'Obama is for deficit spending in attempt to stimulate the economy during a recession, and for more government control or ownership over market production'.
Click to expand...
Feel free to state the former, there is ample evidence of it and, personally, I would be prepared to defend him on this. As to you second statement about government control of ownership over market production, I would like to see more evidence of what you are speaking of . Are you referring to the GM/auto industry issue? If so, I think you are correct about having serious misgivings over the government takeover of this company. Even though there is some evidence that it may be successful(or at least not the disaster that many predicted), I still think it sets a bad precedent and the government overstepped its bounds in the way it took controlling share in the company. But I don't see a desire of Obama to take ownership of the market as a whole. Is there something, specifically, that I am missing? Please share, if so.
 
This is the transcript of what Obama actually said. He is exactly right ... America is strong because we have been a mixed economy.

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn't -- look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smartpeople out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build it on your own.The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
Click to expand...

Fox knows what he is saying and in your mind ... you all know he is exactly correct and that Mitt Romney would agree with this. The alchemists at Fox infotainment were just playing the indoctrinated citizens again!
 
Last edited:
johnny_rebson said:
If Obama is saying the taxes need to be raised in order to fund road repairs, then maybe we should just let the roads fall apart. It's just plain wrong to increase taxes.
Click to expand...

And why do you say that? Are you saying it is ALWAYS wrong to raise taxes, or are you just saying that the current time is no the correct time to do it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom