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Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060694263 said:
Most everyone understands that very few people were born with a silver spoon in their mouths and received help along the way, but this statement is offensive to those who have worked hard to get where they are. It just shows how out of touch he really is.
It's not even the place of Obama or Elizabeth Warren who basically issued the same sophistry to speak to what work is involved in success, they've never had to do it. Obama was propped up from a young age by political connections and Warren pretty much lied her way into prominence using a made up ethnic heritage and misuse of affirmative action. I did have a business for most of my twenties, I was an independent insurance agent while I was also working elsewhere and in college , I didn't make it but put in ten times the work of my peers. Free time to me was getting to hang out with friends and EVEN then I was thinking shop. I guess we could speak to the hospital position Michelle Obama was granted that didn't involve much work and dissappeareed when Mr. Obama took the office of president, it was considered a "do nothing" position, but then again not everyone has the easy money connections and have to do things for ourselves.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Well said, but many people like to BELIEVE that they did everything on their own. My brother-in-law is a doctor. Smart hard working fellow. Loves to tell every how he did it all on his own. There's just one problem. His grandfather on one side paid for his education, and his grandmother paid for his expenses, including $5,000 a month living expenses. I take nothing from his hard work, as without that he would not have succeed. But the fact remains he had help. Most of us do. The difference is some recognize this, and others seek to take all the credit.

The problem is you do take something from his hard work. His grandfather paid for his education...but he managed to get the oppertunity to have that educaiton due to the work he put into school to get the grades and the extracurriculurs to get accepted to that school. His grandfather managed to continue to pay for that education because he was successfully working at college to be able to pass the classes and learn his trade to allow himself the oppertunity to pay to stay in college. And on and on. That's my point. You choose in that paragraph to focus LARGELY on hyping up and promoting all the help he got while giving little to no credit to his individual efforts. The only mentions you made from it was a negative statement about how he BELIEVES it was all on his own and a statement of saying you "take nothing from his hard work" after you spent the entire post focusing singularly on his help from others.

The real differnece isn't that some recognize this, and others seek to take all the credit. The real differnece is that some wish to propogate and talk up one side and others with to do the other side and few rarely give equal play or credit to both. Because the reality is there's no real subjective way to say which one truly caused the other or allowed for the other or had more impact because you just simply can't test for that.

This won't hurt Obama because people "cannot see how anyone every helped anyone who was successful"...it will hurt Obama because while he focused on propping up the community aspect and severely downplayed the individual side of it, there are others who choose to simply act the opposite way of Obama and promote the individual aspect of the community. The difference is you seem to imply that those who view it the latter are somehow more "wrong" or less "right" than Obama's.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Chicken and egg, chicken and egg, chicken and egg.
,
Almost every individual effort is shaped in part by environmental conditions which were likely shaped in part due to individual efforts which....on and on.
I don't buy that Zpyh. While it's true that overall the market dictates whether an idea is viable at a particular time or even at all, it takes work to sell the idea to market, it takes work to make the idea conform to the environment. Things that are on shelves today had to be sold prior to that.
As I said to a few friends on email...the funny thing is…he’s right, but he’s wrong as well. The reality is, often, success is a mixture of environment/community and the individual. Sometimes environment almost alone can spur it…sometimes the individual almost on their own can do it, but usually it’s a mix. The difference is…and it’s so interesting read it because it’s often a great dichotomy between the two poarties…is which of those two ingredients do you choose to highlight, promote, and give adulation to and which do you downplay or degrade or write off.
Subccess boils down to personal choices, with some luck involved. For instance I've known wealthy kids who literally snorted, stuck, and toked away their inheritance and now work at Taco Bell, I know millionaires who started with nothing.
Obama chooses to highlight and promote the community while devaluing and downplaying the individual. Traditionally, Republicans hype up the individual while downplaying the community. What becomes interesting is which of the two arguments will win over the fickle American people this time around.
The problem is that Obama is ignoring the initial work that allowed the people he focuses on to have an opportunity in the first place. If I start a restaurant and set the menu I can find hundreds of people who can read my recipes and cook. How many of them can create a recipe that I would be proud to serve?
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Then I suppose Obama also claims that no one is really responsible for his or her failures too. That also is the result of other people. We are all just workers of the big ant hive, also born to live and die serving the hive.

Only malcontent evil people claim any individuality or lack of life obligation to the good of the hive.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

The problem is that Obama is ignoring the initial work that allowed the people he focuses on to have an opportunity in the first place. If I start a restaurant and set the menu I can find hundreds of people who can read my recipes and cook. How many of them can create a recipe that I would be proud to serve?

Sigh.

Here's my point LMD.

How'd you learn to create that recipe? Did you just spontanteously figure it out? Or did you gain cooking skills from a culinary school, or reading books related to cooking, or helping your father or mother cook, or watching cooking shows? How did you start that resturant? Did you take a loan from someone, even a bank? Did you have any help with investing in capital. Did you have anyone help with the design and decor of the shop or advertising it? Did you have friends spreading the word about your place for you?

Now on the flip side...no matter how you learned how to make that recipe, it still took individual effort to actually learn it and perfect it. Regardless of how you got the money to start up the business, you actually took the initiative and took the risks and chances associated with it. If you had help with advertising or design, you built the individual relationships with people who helped and took actions in a way that inspired them to help you.

And then it can go on and on.

It's a never ending wheel. Almost nothing is done for a reason that can be traced back singularly to individual effort....and the same can be said in regards to environment/community. The difference is which part of that cycle a person feels deserves greater weight and importance. You feel the individual deserves greater importance...boo feels the community aspect deserves greater importance....neither of your are necessarily wrong or right because it's an entirely subjective thing. Can you point to extreme examples on your end of individuals working hard and succeeding even though some environmental or community factors should've hindered them? Sure. You can also point to individuals whose individual actions should have resulted in great horror and no good at all and yet through community and environment end up gaining beneficial things. However, by and large, in most cases, it is almost always a mix of the two in some fashion or form.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.

i fail to see anything in that quote that is factually incorrect or even mildly controversial.

another fox news distortion.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

You don't see anything at least POSSIBLE to be controversial about "If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen".

That's no different than saying "If you've got a business you've got it becaues of yourself. No one else helped you make that".

It completely devalues, and in that particular instance completely removes, any individual effort or activity placing ALL the responsability and praise onto the community. That's ridiculous to suggest.

If you can't honestly see how there is something even mildly controversial then to be quite frank you're not looking at it very objectively.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

I suspect this will hurt him with those who cannot see how anyone every helped anyone who was successful. The individualism myth is a large one, and American mythology is powerful.

I'm rather surprised you don't seem to understand Obama's statement. There is no context to infer, or conclusion to be drawn. His words verbatim stand alone. Obama gives no credit to those who have become successful. He said, "You didn't build that. Someone else made that happen."

If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.
President Barack Obama
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Sigh.

Here's my point LMD.

How'd you learn to create that recipe? Did you just spontanteously figure it out? Or did you gain cooking skills from a culinary school, or reading books related to cooking, or helping your father or mother cook, or watching cooking shows? How did you start that resturant? Did you take a loan from someone, even a bank? Did you have any help with investing in capital. Did you have anyone help with the design and decor of the shop or advertising it? Did you have friends spreading the word about your place for you?

Now on the flip side...no matter how you learned how to make that recipe, it still took individual effort to actually learn it and perfect it. Regardless of how you got the money to start up the business, you actually took the initiative and took the risks and chances associated with it. If you had help with advertising or design, you built the individual relationships with people who helped and took actions in a way that inspired them to help you.

And then it can go on and on.

It's a never ending wheel. Almost nothing is done for a reason that can be traced back singularly to individual effort....and the same can be said in regards to environment/community. The difference is which part of that cycle a person feels deserves greater weight and importance. You feel the individual deserves greater importance...boo feels the community aspect deserves greater importance....neither of your are necessarily wrong or right because it's an entirely subjective thing. Can you point to extreme examples on your end of individuals working hard and succeeding even though some environmental or community factors should've hindered them? Sure. You can also point to individuals whose individual actions should have resulted in great horror and no good at all and yet through community and environment end up gaining beneficial things. However, by and large, in most cases, it is almost always a mix of the two in some fashion or form.
Ah but wait, if I go to culinary school that is a traded value, I've already paid someone to share that knowledge with me, same thing with any design help in the restaurant, they aren't partners in my business, they make a value determination upon materials and time used to do that service for me and then the partnership ends upon my last payment, they aren't doing it for "me" or for my restaurant but rather for compensation. Same thing with the loan I would take out, the bank isn't doing it for "me" or because they want to be partners in my restaurant but rather to make money on the interest accrued by lending me the money, it isn't neutral like a grant. I guess my point is that values are already traded, the other side is trying to change the values in lieu of the workers who have already taken the job at X compensation for the Y conditions. The major failing with the "community effort" value judgement is that it completely ignores the driving value of initial ideas, labor, investment and reinvestment. The community valuation also ignores that every tax dollar spent by employees came from employers who in turn tend to have larger tax bills on top of overhead.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060694408 said:
I'm rather surprised you don't seem to understand Obama's statement. There is no context to infer, or conclusion to be drawn. His words verbatim stand alone. Obama gives no credit to those who have become successful. He said, "You didn't build that. Someone else made that happen."

And here's the flip side of Helix.

There is context becuase it's one sentence in the midst of two entire paragrpahs talking about it. Reading it alone, it looks absolutely damning. Reading it as the whole, it is reasonable to suggest it's a bit of hyperbole in the context of the entire message that is basically suggesting that the individual doesn't accomplish things on his own, that anything people do is in part due to those around them and the system that exists.

Now, that's DEFINITELY still able to be argued about. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that the entire two paragraphs surrounding his comment speaks more to the context and intent behind it then a singular line within the entire thing.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Ah but wait, if I go to culinary school that is a traded value, I've already paid someone to share that knowledge with me, same thing with any design help in the restaurant, they aren't partners in my business, they make a value determination upon materials and time used to do that service for me and then the partnership ends upon my last payment, they aren't doing it for "me" or for my restaurant but rather for compensation. Same thing with the loan I would take out, the bank isn't doing it for "me" or because they want to be partners in my restaurant but rather to make money on the interest accrued by lending me the money, it isn't neutral like a grant. I guess my point is that values are already traded, the other side is trying to change the values in lieu of the workers who have already taken the job at X compensation for the Y conditions. The major failing with the "community effort" value judgement is that it completely ignores the driving value of initial ideas, labor, investment and reinvestment. The community valuation also ignores that every tax dollar spent by employees came from employers who in turn tend to have larger tax bills on top of overhead.

Regardless of why they do it, the fact they do it is part of what's allowing you to do it. But you highlight my point that it's all a cycle. Their help or service to you is instrumental to the individual things you do, but that help or service is made possible due to individual actions or choices. Which wre likely helped out in some way through community/environmental situations. And on and on and on and on.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

i fail to see anything in that quote that is factually incorrect or even mildly controversial.

another fox news distortion.
Every bit of that is factually incorrect. If I own a business based off of my ideas and the employees all pissed me off I could fire every last one of them, rehire a new crew, and still have my business. For that sentence to be true it would have to follow that I created the business, not my employees, and frankly it is true.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Regardless of why they do it, the fact they do it is part of what's allowing you to do it. But you highlight my point that it's all a cycle. Their help or service to you is instrumental to the individual things you do, but that help or service is made possible due to individual actions or choices. Which wre likely helped out in some way through community/environmental situations. And on and on and on and on.
I get all of that, here's the catch: If no businesses exist requiring the services of secondary business then their labor has no demand, yet if the secondary business didn't exist I could probably design my own dining room/bar layout, if I went gourmet I could get away with less employees by serving and cashiering while the sauces cook, etc. I guess I'm getting at this, while laborers are important they don't exist without the investment class(bosses, money, ideas).
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

You don't see anything at least POSSIBLE to be controversial about "If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen".

That's no different than saying "If you've got a business you've got it becaues of yourself. No one else helped you make that".

It completely devalues, and in that particular instance completely removes, any individual effort or activity placing ALL the responsability and praise onto the community. That's ridiculous to suggest.

If you can't honestly see how there is something even mildly controversial then to be quite frank you're not looking at it very objectively.

read the sentences before and after the fox selected sentence. an individual business did not build the road or create the internet. those things were created by a lot of people; both in government and in the private sector. the point is that doing things together for society benefits everyone, and every business uses a wide variety of infrastructure that it didn't build.

there's nothing remotely controversial about that, and one has to really stretch to read it the way fox presents it.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Every bit of that is factually incorrect. If I own a business based off of my ideas and the employees all pissed me off I could fire every last one of them, rehire a new crew, and still have my business. For that sentence to be true it would have to follow that I created the business, not my employees, and frankly it is true.

does your business use infrastructure that it didn't build by itself?
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

does your business use infrastructure that it didn't build by itself?
Why would the infrastructure exist if not to facilitate business? If businesses decided to stop producing in a bad market, do you think those roads would be maintained frequently?
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Chicken and egg, chicken and egg, chicken and egg.

Almost every individual effort is shaped in part by environmental conditions which were likely shaped in part due to individual efforts which....on and on.

As I said to a few friends on email...the funny thing is…he’s right, but he’s wrong as well. The reality is, often, success is a mixture of environment/community and the individual. Sometimes environment almost alone can spur it…sometimes the individual almost on their own can do it, but usually it’s a mix. The difference is…and it’s so interesting reading it because it’s often a great dichotomy between the two parties…is which of those two ingredients do you choose to highlight, promote, and give adulation to and which do you downplay or degrade or write off.

Obama chooses to highlight and promote the community while devaluing and downplaying the individual. Traditionally, Republicans hype up the individual while downplaying the community. What becomes interesting is which of the two arguments will win over the fickle American people this time around.

Good points. The people created the gov't not the gov't created the people. Our constitution establishes limitted federal power, and it does NOT include income redistribution (charity). Which party wishes to make things rights simply because they are needs or wants?

What is MOSTLY failed to be addressed ABOVE BOARD, by Obama and the left, is what those on the sidelines are entitled to. What does one that dropped out of school, has no job yet produces offspring offer to society? The left will say that offspring alone is NOW worth supporting the moron that is their parent, that was their great "contribution", a welfare baby.

What has to be decided is HOW MUCH of the "proceeds" of a business is due those that invested their own time, effort and funds into it and how much is due to "society" for allowing them the privilege to establish that business and the infrastructure to help support us all. Obama seems to believe that asking the top 10% to pay half of the taxes is "fair" and the rest may still vote themselves all manor of new rights, goods and services based on need (want?) alone out of that taxation. It is the growing crowd in the bleachers, that used to be charged a modest admission fee, that are now saying that they should be paid to simply watch. It is far too easy to be very generous with other people's money.
 
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Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

I get all of that, here's the catch: If no businesses exist requiring the services of secondary business then their labor has no demand, yet if the secondary business didn't exist I could probably design my own dining room/bar layout, if I went gourmet I could get away with less employees by serving and cashiering while the sauces cook, etc. I guess I'm getting at this, while laborers are important they don't exist without the investment class(bosses, money, ideas).

Laborer's aren't the only other part of that community aspect though. Customers are. Other businesses you interact with...from advertising to cooking supplies to farmers etc...all play into it.

Unless you're suggesting you raise your own food, smelt your own metal, create your own silverware, forge your own ceramic plates, built your own building, advertise singularly by your own word of mouth, completely taught yourself how to make the food, burn your own compost to power your resturant, etc.

The Individual and their Environment is a symbiotic relationship. How the individual works and how that environment functions can be changed, arguments can be made with how much impact each may have at any given time, but the reality is that if you remove either component to that relationship the other does not survive in the manner that it is at the current point in time.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Laborer's aren't the only other part of that community aspect though. Customers are. Other businesses you interact with...from advertising to cooking supplies to farmers etc...all play into it.

Unless you're suggesting you raise your own food, smelt your own metal, create your own silverware, forge your own ceramic plates, built your own building, advertise singularly by your own word of mouth, completely taught yourself how to make the food, burn your own compost to power your resturant, etc.

The Individual and their Environment is a symbiotic relationship. How the individual works and how that environment functions can be changed, arguments can be made with how much impact each may have at any given time, but the reality is that if you remove either component to that relationship the other does not survive in the manner that it is at the current point in time.
And you are correct, but this does not allow for the logic that a business owner didn't build his business or that society had a greater role in it than trading for value which is my overall point. If following the logic of a communal effort then it becomes logical that the creators and investors of a business don't own the idea, this is dangerous and frankly dishonest and is always used as an excuse to take more money and exert more authority.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Why would the infrastructure exist if not to facilitate business? If businesses decided to stop producing in a bad market, do you think those roads would be maintained frequently?

i missed the part where you answered the question. the answer is yes, your business uses infrastructure that it didn't build on its own. that was the entire point of the full original quote.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Business owners, you are demons.
Now, faithful, let's take our money back from those demons. It's righteous work we're doing.

What a crock of ****.

I love the self-fulfilling aspect of this as well. Hey business owners, we took money from business owners BEFORE you, and squandered those taxes on inefficient government projects and programs, that they had no choice in. Now that you use those programs and such, YOU OWE US BIG, and we are deciding what you owe us!
What a joke.

Of all the things that make me want to be an evil bastard, liberal rhetoric is #1.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

You don't see anything at least POSSIBLE to be controversial about "If you've got a business - you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen".

That's no different than saying "If you've got a business you've got it becaues of yourself. No one else helped you make that".

It completely devalues, and in that particular instance completely removes, any individual effort or activity placing ALL the responsability and praise onto the community. That's ridiculous to suggest.

If you can't honestly see how there is something even mildly controversial then to be quite frank you're not looking at it very objectively.

Not to mention it also brings into question, if it's just a matter of outside influences, why aren't they working to make those influences so that everyone has their own business. What a great way to get the jobless back into jobs. It doesn't require any effort on their part. ;)
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Given that most of us are in the U.S. receiving all those grand benefits of the U.S. government and "other people", why is there still so much disparity?
Oh yes, some people still simply outperform others, in the marketplace. It's relative. I grew up in Louisiana, I don't think they were trying to help me there, things were falling apart all around me, it was depressing. I got the **** out. Texas on the other hand, imagine that...rated #1 for business? Craziness.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Good points. The people created the gov't not the gov't created the people.

People who were able to come over here because other people and governments "discoverd" it, manned boats comin gover here, etc etc.

Again, the real goes round and round, chicken and the egg, chicken and the egg.

Now, I agree that there's definitely all kinds of debate and arguments to be had regarding tangental issues to it. I don't think the "individual" or "The community" is inherently a good argument either way because it is so subjective. However, to me that's a talk for another thread. The issue with this one from the start seemed to be outrage over Obama's statement....in that, while I understand it, I don't particularly see it because he's not really saying anything new and is just stating his sides typically subjective view of which of the two things in the cycle is most important. That's nothing scandalous to me...that's the norm.
 
Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

And you are correct, but this does not allow for the logic that a business owner didn't build his business or that society had a greater role in it than trading for value which is my overall point.

Oh I agree. However, again, I think Obama's line is only saying that the person didn't build their business in any way, shape, or form if you take it entirely seperate from the two paragraphs surrounding it. When you take it as the whole, it instead goes to your second part...that society had a greater role in it.

Now that...that can be argued, but utlimately it's a subjective argument. People in this thread have been just as guilty as Obama, just on the other side, in suggesting that the individual has the greater role as if it's fact. It's not something that's really provable or definitive either way, which is why you routinely have what you had with Obama and with people in this thread....the promotion of one of the two, the devaluing of the other of the two, based on that individuals world view and internal belief of what is or isn't more important or impactful.
 
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