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Taliban shoot woman 9 times in public execution as men cheer

A large aspect of interpretation is the ability to completely ignore, or totally reinvent, age old dogma. Not sure why anyone would try to ignore or dismiss that

I believe what Lizzie is talking about is the life style that Islam by its nature (as Judaism would I might add were it not for historically divergent paths) is a juridical religion meant to define ones life in all spheres. Whether or not you quibble over a particular passage or interpretation is 'irrelevant' when compared to the entire lifestyle. Do I have that right?
 
Oh I am NO expert on Afghanistan.. All Islam is fundamental.. see Five Pillars of Islam.. The meaning is different from Christian or Western notions of "fundamentalism"...

Islam is not... ummm.. monolithic.. and many fundamentalists are also moderate.

You hear alot about Wahhabis, but Wahhabi is NOT a sect.. its like calling someone a Calvinist or a Unitarian.. They choose to simplify.. It was reaction against the innovations introduced during the Ottoman Empire.

Most "Wahhabis" are not stupid guys with scraggly beards and dirty thobes who routinely oppress women.

It has taken me most of a lifetime to come to these conclusions.. ( I am Christian) and I am just not good at explaining. The last conversation I had with a young Saudi.. a couple of hours.. was about the Muslim view of Jesus and human rights. Fascinating to me.

And when we wrapped it up.. He said, "Remember.. you cannot talk to one Muslim and know Islam."

Yes, they also deeply dislike the term. When prompted they'll say if you need a name to call them Unitarian.
 
A large aspect of interpretation is the ability to completely ignore, or totally reinvent, age old dogma. Not sure why anyone would try to ignore or dismiss that

Well, if you look around at the majority of Muslims in western culture, it's pretty obvious that they don't leave the dress codes and marriage codes up to interpretation.

When I say "certain passages", I am referring to passages which merely tell a story, not to commandments.
 
Yes, they also deeply dislike the term. When prompted they'll say if you need a name to call them Unitarian.

You are right .. they do object to the term.. I have just enjoyed that part of the world.. and maybe I just got used to them.. Most certainly I was always safe and treated with respect.

So its like when in Capri..............

You know.. Live and let live.
 
I believe what Lizzie is talking about is the life style that Islam by its nature (as Judaism would I might add were it not for historically divergent paths) is a juridical religion meant to define ones life in all spheres. Whether or not you quibble over a particular passage or interpretation is 'irrelevant' when compared to the entire lifestyle. Do I have that right?

Even then, that can be totally removed from the religion, and would say that most Islamic immigrants to the states have managed to do so (my general impression is that they are educated professionals). But yes, Islam is rather expansive of it's view concerning the proper role of religion
 
Well, if you look around at the majority of Muslims in western culture, it's pretty obvious that they don't leave the dress codes and marriage codes up to interpretation.

When I say "certain passages", I am referring to passages which merely tell a story, not to commandments.

most of the muslims I know in the states embrace a pretty western lifestyle, and probably have views most similar to moderate, family, concervatives
 
I believe what Lizzie is talking about is the life style that Islam by its nature (as Judaism would I might add were it not for historically divergent paths) is a juridical religion meant to define ones life in all spheres. Whether or not you quibble over a particular passage or interpretation is 'irrelevant' when compared to the entire lifestyle. Do I have that right?

Yes, pretty much on the mark. Compare the same issue in Christianity. The Bible has the ten commandments, which are essentially the "law", as believed to have been handed down by God. They are pretty generally good tenets to live by, in a free society. Honor thy mother and thy father, don't kill, steal, take the name of thy God in vain, worship no idols, etc.............
These are pretty good rules for living in just about any society.

Compare that to a religious text which tells you how to control every minute detail of your personal appearance, who you should marry, whom you should avoid contact with, and other such personal details, and these aren't really conducive to interpretation, and are infact, at odds with democratic principles.

You may read a story about a great warrior, and interpret the meaning of that story, as it is often symbolic in nature, much as many of the Bible stories about wars and personal struggles.
 
most of the muslims I know in the states embrace a pretty western lifestyle, and probably have views most similar to moderate, family, concervatives

They do have a western lifestyle on the surface, and with regards to many social activities, but they are still pretty rigorous with regard to personal relationships and dress. It doesn't bother me, as I have several Muslim friends and professional associates, but there is no doubt a cultural barrier present, and certain things that are never discussed or shared.
 
Yes, pretty much on the mark. Compare the same issue in Christianity. The Bible has the ten commandments, which are essentially the "law", as believed to have been handed down by God. They are pretty generally good tenets to live by, in a free society. Honor thy mother and thy father, don't kill, steal, take the name of thy God in vain, worship no idols, etc.............
These are pretty good rules for living in just about any society.

Compare that to a religious text which tells you how to control every minute detail of your personal appearance, who you should marry, whom you should avoid contact with, and other such personal details, and these aren't really conducive to interpretation, and are infact, at odds with democratic principles.

You may read a story about a great warrior, and interpret the meaning of that story, as it is often symbolic in nature, much as many of the Bible stories about wars and personal struggles.

I understand your point about the language being rather direct, I'm just pointing out there is really nothing stopping someone from simply tossing those elements on the trash heap, or interpreting them in completely new ways. An example of the later would be Ibn Hudhayl's views on the jihad.
 
I understand your point about the language being rather direct, I'm just pointing out there is really nothing stopping someone from simply tossing those elements on the trash heap, or interpreting them in completely new ways. An example of the later would be Ibn Hudhayl's views on the jihad.

In one word: fear.
 
They do have a western lifestyle on the surface, and with regards to many social activities, but they are still pretty rigorous with regard to personal relationships and dress. It doesn't bother me, as I have several Muslim friends and professional associates, but there is no doubt a cultural barrier present, and certain things that are never discussed or shared.

sounds like most christian families I know, to be honest. But clearly there is going to be a difference between both simply based on one group being immigrants. Doesn't mean they haven't shed the worst of their societies baggage
 
you're kinda missing my point

Sure, but I think the point is that even if various interpretations are possible, the nature of Islam (again as in Judaism) makes the abolition/re-interpretation of its all encompassing role very difficult. For Judaism it took two thousand years of exile, diaspora, and forced assimilation in conjunction with an emerging enlightenment culture, not to mention the fact that authority to carry out punishments was divested from them. For Islam it will be much slower and more difficult, and that is troublesome.
 
Sure, but I think the point is that even if various interpretations are possible, the nature of Islam (again as in Judaism) makes the abolition/re-interpretation of its all encompassing role very difficult. For Judaism it took two thousand years of exile, diaspora, and forced assimilation in conjunction with an emerging enlightenment culture, not to mention the fact that authority to carry out punishments was divested from them. For Islam it will be much slower and more difficult, and that is troublesome.


pointing out it can change isn't the same as saying it will, or that such is even likely to happen on some grand scale
 
sounds like most christian families I know, to be honest. But clearly there is going to be a difference between both simply based on one group being immigrants. Doesn't mean they haven't shed the worst of their societies baggage

May be true between ordinary members of various religions, but the Taliban is apart from all of that. They don't want little girls to learn to read; those who fear them buried their radios for years. These are primitive cave-dwellers. Not saying they aren't smart; just saying that their society is primitive and regards women as, to be generous, "second-class citizens." Expendable and usually to blame.
 
You are right .. they do object to the term.. I have just enjoyed that part of the world.. and maybe I just got used to them.. Most certainly I was always safe and treated with respect.

So its like when in Capri..............

You know.. Live and let live.


You brought Capri in? the isle of Capri?

Capri an Taliban............... we can not get two words more different from each other, can we huh?

Nobody is going to shoot me in Capri if I wear a bikini or if I'm drinking a champagne cocktail.... yeah, live and let live ..... and better to live in Capri. ;)
 
Oh I am NO expert on Afghanistan.. All Islam is fundamental.. see Five Pillars of Islam.. The meaning is different from Christian or Western notions of "fundamentalism"...

Islam is not... ummm.. monolithic.. and many fundamentalists are also moderate.

You hear alot about Wahhabis, but Wahhabi is NOT a sect.. its like calling someone a Calvinist or a Unitarian.. They choose to simplify.. It was reaction against the innovations introduced during the Ottoman Empire.

Most "Wahhabis" are not stupid guys with scraggly beards and dirty thobes who routinely oppress women.

It has taken me most of a lifetime to come to these conclusions.. ( I am Christian) and I am just not good at explaining. The last conversation I had with a young Saudi.. a couple of hours.. was about the Muslim view of Jesus and human rights. Fascinating to me.

And when we wrapped it up.. He said, "Remember.. you cannot talk to one Muslim and know Islam."


This is what I am talking about: fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
 
No, I'm not missing the point. The answer is fear. Fear is what keeps many of them stifled and controlled.

In your original post you mentioned something about "true Islam". The point I have been trying to raise is that what you view as "true Islam" is likely transitory, and that it often changes on the personal and societal level.

That isn't to say such a change is likely in islam, or that there isn't any overarching issues within Islamic society. Believe me, I agree there are major issues there
 
Sickening and just beyond horrible. May she rest in peace; she certainly didn't get to live in it.
 
911 wasn't really about religion. It was about US foreign policy.
Your perspective is interesting. Do you believe that we are responsible for 3000+ Americans murdered and billions of dollars worth of destroyed property?
 
Your perspective is interesting. Do you believe that we are responsible for 3000+ Americans murdered and billions of dollars worth of destroyed property?
Islamist terrorists are responsible for it. But in my view, its occurrence would have been far less likely without military intervention by the United States government in the Middle East. We are not our government, though.
 
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