California Senate vote keeps bullet train alive(edited)

Wiseone · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

jamesrage said:
What is wrong is living and working in a densely populated city.

Ya why hasn't any else thought of that? Why do we need to build infrastructure to support large cities, its wrong to live and work there after all. If those people didn't want to deal with traffic they should just all move out of the city, simple as that.

PeteEU · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

jamesrage said:
If they cost more to construct,maintain and operate then what they bring in, then they are not for the public good.

So you are against the federal highways system, plus the US military, Coast Gaurd, and so on and so on.. all those cost far more to construct, maintain and operate.. they in fact being in very very little..

PeteEU · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

haymarket said:
As far as I am aware, such projects rarely are expected to make a profit in other countries. They are considered as necessities for the public good.

Yes and no.

Public transport to rural areas is deemed as a "public good", but in big cities and with high speed rail, they are seen as a public good but required to at least break even in the medium and long run.

The French TGV cost billions to make, but is now years after its completion for the most part, it is pumping out up to a billion in profits a year.

mike2810 · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

So california and the feds are going to spend an estimated 94billion dollars to build this. So we borrow more and fall deeper in debt. Wonder how much the 700million would help education or health care in that State? Oh wait, we can sell more bonds and raise more taxes. Yea.:mrgreen:

"California now will have to allot more than $700 million a year to repay billions of dollars to build the high-speed rail system's first phase, the nonpartisan legislative analyst's office finds.

Borrowing costs for bullet train revised upward - Los Angeles Times

ttwtt78640 · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

justabubba said:
spoken like someone who has never enjoyed the ability to travel the DC area using its metro mass transit system

That DC "metro area" system is very good IFF you can get to it; but has very few stops outside of the I-495 capital beltway. Only 2 on the blue line, 1 on the yellow line and the best service on the red line with 8 stops in the suburbs outside of the beltway. Only Montgomery county, MD had the brains to actually allow decent service to allow its commuters to use that system. The system is great where it exists, but is mostly underground, again the exception is in Montgomery county, MD (they used the I-270 right of way). The system SHOULD have been built using more above ground tracks, extending the system, using the median space on the major commuter road right of ways (I-95 N & S, and MD Rt. 5), to save money and to get more comuters to actually USE it. Nothing works like a train whizzing by you, as you sit in a gridlocked traffic jam. For many, in the suburbs you must drive 60% of the way and then pay to park, just to ride the Metro the rest of the way. It also does NOT service the football stadium, to preserve the massive parking revenue for its rich owners.

Fishstyx · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
View attachment 67130608

i think we might be doing it wrong.

Yup....because this is soooo much better.

iceland-volcanic-ash-impact_toronto-star_april-16-2010-14.jpg

Furthermore, can you explain why a traditional and much cheaper mass transit system wouldn't be more useful to solve the traffic issues in a metro area? I've been through the area several times that this colossal waste of money is gonna be built and have never seen traffic like that.

Helix · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

jamesrage said:
What is wrong is living and working in a densely populated city.

it seems that living where the jobs are makes more sense from an energy-usage perspective.

i was simply arguing that there are better ways to get people to their jobs than six lanes of gridlock in both directions.

Fishstyx · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
nothing. i'm just proposing that there might be a slightly more efficient way to get people to and from their jobs than six lanes of gridlock in both directions.

Which HSR would be neither efficient nor cost effective....at all.

Helix · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Fishstyx said:
Yup....because this is soooo much better.

View attachment 67130629

View attachment 67130630

Furthermore, can you explain why a traditional and much cheaper mass transit system wouldn't be more useful to solve the traffic issues in a metro area? I've been through the area several times that this colossal waste of money is gonna be built and have never seen traffic like that.

while the local mass transit systems need expansion as well, the high speed trains would get those in distant suburbs to the city. right now, they're driving, and many are driving solo. i do the same in my state. if there were high speed rail to the town i work in, i'd use it fairly often.

Fishstyx · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
while the local mass transit systems need expansion as well, the high speed trains would get those in distant suburbs to the city. right now, they're driving, and many are driving solo. i do the same in my state. if there were high speed rail to the town i work in, i'd use it fairly often.

Again, HSR wouldn't be necessary. Traditional would be more than adequate and much cheaper. Its doesn't even make sense as for any decent distance, you'd require multiple stops to even come close to breaking even (still likely would swim in red ink).

Albert Di Salvo · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Does any one know how the financing of the California Bullet Train is going to work?

The part of the Bullet Train that Jerry Brown and Barack Obama have money for will be built between Bakersfield and Fresno. How smart is that? Do you want to know why this segment is being built now? The environmental litigation is less vicious far from the coast. The problem is that most people live along the coast in Southern California and the Bay Area.

No one has any idea how the other segments of the Bullet Train will be financed. How smart is that? Hope and blind faith aren't much of a substitute for consensus based policy.

School funding is being cut. But Jerry Brown and Barack Obama want to waste money on a boondoggle.

California isn't like the rest of the country. California is unique in this country. And the magnitude of our financial hole is equally unique.

Fishstyx · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
No one has any idea how the other segments of the Bullet Train will be financed. How smart is that? Hope and blind faith aren't much of a substitute for consensus based policy.

School funding is being cut. But Jerry Brown and Barack Obama want to waste money on a boondoggle.

California isn't like the rest of the country. California is unique in this country. And the magnitude of our financial hole is equally unique.

Its the Field of Dreams approach. Build it....and it will come!:lamo

jamesrage · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
it seems that living where the jobs are makes more sense from an energy-usage perspective.

i was simply arguing that there are better ways to get people to their jobs than six lanes of gridlock in both directions.

There are plenty of large cities that are not cramped with millions of people, don't have a lot of pollution, excessive property values and lot of crime.

AdamT · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
Does any one know how the financing of the California Bullet Train is going to work?

The part of the Bullet Train that Jerry Brown and Barack Obama have money for will be built between Bakersfield and Fresno. How smart is that? Do you want to know why this segment is being built now? The environmental litigation is less vicious far from the coast. The problem is that most people live along the coast in Southern California and the Bay Area.

No one has any idea how the other segments of the Bullet Train will be financed. How smart is that? Hope and blind faith aren't much of a substitute for consensus based policy.

School funding is being cut. But Jerry Brown and Barack Obama want to waste money on a boondoggle.

California isn't like the rest of the country. California is unique in this country. And the magnitude of our financial hole is equally unique.

I believe they started with that section because there wasn't much issue with eminent domain.

Good to see someone getting some use from the funds my idiot governor turned down.

iguanaman · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
Does any one know how the financing of the California Bullet Train is going to work?

The part of the Bullet Train that Jerry Brown and Barack Obama have money for will be built between Bakersfield and Fresno. How smart is that? Do you want to know why this segment is being built now? The environmental litigation is less vicious far from the coast. The problem is that most people live along the coast in Southern California and the Bay Area.

No one has any idea how the other segments of the Bullet Train will be financed. How smart is that? Hope and blind faith aren't much of a substitute for consensus based policy.

California isn't like the rest of the country. California is unique in this country. And the magnitude of our financial hole is equally unique.

Can you imagine if they said that about the Saturn V moon rocket? We can subsidize the hell out of private airports for billionaires private jets but modern transportation for the masses is taboo? Do you even understand how far behind we have gotten since we landed on the moon? The top 5% saw their networth go from 8 to 40 TRILLION since 1985 while the countries infrastructure and technological advantage has crumbled to dust. Our priorities are despicable and must change.

Phys251 · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

jamesrage said:
What is wrong is living and working in a densely populated city.

Spreading them out would just make a bad situation worse. You are familiar with sprawl, right?

Dittohead not! · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Albert Di Salvo said:
Does any one know how the financing of the California Bullet Train is going to work?

The part of the Bullet Train that Jerry Brown and Barack Obama have money for will be built between Bakersfield and Fresno. How smart is that? Do you want to know why this segment is being built now? The environmental litigation is less vicious far from the coast. The problem is that most people live along the coast in Southern California and the Bay Area.

No one has any idea how the other segments of the Bullet Train will be financed. How smart is that? Hope and blind faith aren't much of a substitute for consensus based policy.

School funding is being cut. But Jerry Brown and Barack Obama want to waste money on a boondoggle.

California isn't like the rest of the country. California is unique in this country. And the magnitude of our financial hole is equally unique.

From Chowchilla, to be exact, which is a few miles north of Fresno. I'm trying to imagine just who is going to ride this first section of train. I've lived about 90 miles from Bakersfield for years. The only time I've gone there, I've been on my way across the Grapevine to Southern California. Even if I did have business in Bakersfield I just can't see myself driving to Fresno, or to Chowchilla, paying to park, getting on a train, riding to Bakersfield, then either renting a car or taking a bus to wherever I would be going. It just doesn't make sense. It would be quicker and cheaper to drive.

Now, if I could get on a high speed train locally and go to San Francisco's BART, or perhaps to the San Francisco Airport, that would be another matter.

Fresno's Airport sucks, in case anyone is interested.

lpast · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Horribly wrong timing for any kind of project this big and this costly...

Helix · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Fishstyx said:
Again, HSR wouldn't be necessary. Traditional would be more than adequate and much cheaper. Its doesn't even make sense as for any decent distance, you'd require multiple stops to even come close to breaking even (still likely would swim in red ink).

traditional is simply too slow to draw enough passengers. HSR is designed to be faster than driving even with stops. that's the difference.

iguanaman · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

lpast said:
Horribly wrong timing for any kind of project this big and this costly...

Right, Who wants jobs for American workers now. We have to cut back on that. Unless it's going to make a few companies rich at our expense like the XL pipeline of course.

Harry Guerrilla · Jul 7, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

iguanaman said:
Right, Who wants jobs for American workers now. We have to cut back on that. Unless it's going to make a few companies rich at our expense like the XL pipeline of course.

You just don't understand.
The first segment of this HSR line, will be nearly completely useless to the vast majority of people, that may have used it.

washunut · Jul 8, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

justabubba said:
this is when i know i have defeated someone in a debate. when they pretend to tell me what i know despite that i have said something which is contrary to their own - and in this instance, unsupported - opinion

congrats, you win. I can't waste any more time with your level of discussion.

Fishstyx · Jul 8, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
traditional is simply too slow to draw enough passengers. HSR is designed to be faster than driving even with stops. that's the difference.

You'd still have to limit stops to make it time efficient. Distance is a factor in getting one of these up to speed and stopping. Not to mention traveling through developed areas with crossings and what not. You won't attract riders either if they have to travel to the stations.

Again, a gridlock photo doesn't prove that HSR is the right nor most cost effective solution. In fact, far from it.

Helix · Jul 8, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Fishstyx said:
You'd still have to limit stops to make it time efficient. Distance is a factor in getting one of these up to speed and stopping. Not to mention traveling through developed areas with crossings and what not. You won't attract riders either if they have to travel to the stations.

Again, a gridlock photo doesn't prove that HSR is the right nor most cost effective solution. In fact, far from it.

so how do we best deal with the problem? the supply of lanes pretty much everywhere isn't keeping up with traffic. most of us (including me) commute solo. some of us live far from job centers and can't afford to move, so we have to drive because there's no other choice. the whole country is spread out, and cars and planes are the only game in town.

HSR seems to work fairly well in other countries, but i can accept that there might be a better America-specific solution. what is it?

washunut · Jul 8, 2012

Re: California bullet train still a go

Helix said:
so how do we best deal with the problem? the supply of lanes pretty much everywhere isn't keeping up with traffic. most of us (including me) commute solo. some of us live far from job centers and can't afford to move, so we have to drive because there's no other choice. the whole country is spread out, and cars and planes are the only game in town.

HSR seems to work fairly well in other countries, but i can accept that there might be a better America-specific solution. what is it?

We might want to improve the railroad beds we have so that trains would be able to move at their maximum speed. High speed rail really is not to improve traffic jams which are local as their goal is to move people long distances quickly. They act more like an alternative to airlines.

Something else that would improve traffic jams is to find a way to increase carpooling. A carrot approach is for the government to subsidize travel in some manner for folks in a car pool, the stick approach is a materially higher gas tax which would also have the benefit of putting more money into the highway trust fund.

California Senate vote keeps bullet train alive(edited)

Wiseone

PeteEU

PeteEU

mike2810

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

Fishstyx

Helix

Fishstyx

Helix

Fishstyx

Albert Di Salvo

Fishstyx

jamesrage

AdamT

iguanaman

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

lpast

Helix

iguanaman

Harry Guerrilla

washunut

Fishstyx

Helix

washunut