• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

Thats not accurate. It is not a matter of wanting or not wanting to take care of the sick, but whether or not it is the role of the federal government to mandate that care be given and who is to pay for it. No one is stopping you, for example, from paying your neighbors medical bills if they bother you so much. The objection is that you have no right to compel me to pay them.

It is absolutely accurate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

You don't understand; it's not that we CAN'T take care of our sick. It's that, "Christian nation" that we are, we don't WANT to take care of our sick. Or at least so says that segment of our population that's so vocal about its Christian values.

This opinion I totally agree with. "Christian" Americans seem so selfish and unconcerned about the well-being of their community. All they want is to live in the big mansion and attend their privileged church on Sundays. What about the broader CHURCH of Christ? Including the disbelievers.

I have spent the past 4 days trying to hitchhike up the road to stores. I have gotten 3 rides out of 10+ trips, one of which I asked for before sticking my thumb out. Another guy who helped is from Peru. Only one Caucasian American helped me out. That is a hit rate of 1 in 200+. Most people drive by are absorbed in their own world and unwilling to help another poor soul out. So much for the heart of America...it will bleed in the future.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

Dishonesty due to political motivations. The american people are much more receptive to the term "fee" than "tax." Even though it's quite obvious at this stage that is in fact a tax not a fee.

10-4 on that. Shouldn't we as Americans be utterly pissed off that we are being lied to openly?
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

its a penalty collected as a tax, for purposes of efficiency & convenience.

No, no....you don't get to do this honestly Thunder. The SCOTUS upheld the law on the grounds that the mandate is a tax period.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

The World Health Organization ranks Morocco 29th and us 37th for quality of care.

World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is no way you are going to convince me that places like Greece, Morocco, and Columbia have better doctors, better hospitals, better equipment, better results than the US. That is simply not true. The US is the leader in all of those catagories . What we have here is a cost problem, not a care problem. No one in their right mind is going to choose a hospital in Morocco over the Cleveland Clinic.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

this isn't a tax-increase on the Middle-class.

I am lower Middle-class, and my taxes aren't going up in 2014.

therefore, I am not facing a tax-increase.

only in a backwards convoluted way, could someone see this as a tax hike on the middle-class.

When taxes are raised on anyone or any entity in this country, they are raised on each and every one of us...unless you're on the public dole, of course.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I think the analogy would be easier for you to get your head around because it's every day experience. Why would you not consider the dealer that told you it was a car, not a truck, a liar?

The thread isn't about cars, trucks and dealers. Again, analogies not necessary. Address the topic itself. It's not all that complex. I showed where the Obama admin argued it was a tax in court (posted the transcript). It's also been shown where, at the same time, the POTUS was telling the public it wasn't a tax.

You - all you have is a weak analogy to prop up your partisan argument.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

If you don't obey the law you could pay a penalty. That's not a tax, even if the authority to levy the penalty arises out of the taxing power. This Republican talking point has already outlived its shelf life.
It could be considered either a tax or perhaps a fine. Either way it's most certainly not a fee, as that implies the individual paying said amount receives an immediate service in return. I'm afraid that talking point has already been debunked thoroughly.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

Thats not accurate. It is not a matter of wanting or not wanting to take care of the sick, but whether or not it is the role of the federal government to mandate that care be given and who is to pay for it. No one is stopping you, for example, from paying your neighbors medical bills if they bother you so much. The objection is that you have no right to compel me to pay them.

Oh but we do have the right and it our obligation to make sure you do. Just because you want to leave accident victims to die by the side of the road does not mean it is right. Can you imagine if we just let people make all societies decsions on their own?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The thread isn't about cars, trucks and dealers. Again, analogies not necessary. Address the topic itself. It's not all that complex. I showed where the Obama admin argued it was a tax in court (posted the transcript). It's also been shown where, at the same time, the POTUS was telling the public it wasn't a tax.

You - all you have is a weak analogy to prop up your partisan argument.

Apparently, he was wrong.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

When taxes are raised on anyone or any entity in this country, they are raised on each and every one of us...unless you're on the public dole, of course.
That's obviously incorrect.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Without limits? We live in a democracy. The power of the government is limited by elections. There are some areas where we can write down a clear cut rule saying A is acceptable, but B is not, and that will stand the test of time and we don't even need to vote on it. For example, we know that government should not deny the vote to black people or prevent people from speaking freely or whatever. But most areas there is no clear cut simple rule that we can impose to separate good policy from bad policy. We can't say what wars ought to be fought and what ones ought not be fought in a simple phrase. We can't make a simple rule that will tell us when we should invest in scientific research and when we should not. For those kinds of things, we need to use democracy. Taxation and the regulation of corporations and whatnot are in that bucket.

That is INSANE. Our constitution lists (enumerates) specific federal powers, NOWHERE does it say unless they become popular/unpopular. The constitution has been amended numerous times regarding voting "rights". Simply because something is popular does NOT make it constituional, as I have said many times, there are many "nice" things that a gov't MAY do, but ours is supposed to be limitted by our constitution, the entire reason for even having a SCOTUS. If the SCOTUS now simply says that if congress passes it then it is OK, then save some money and dissovle the SCOTUS.

Penalties for BREAKING laws are supposed to require a trial, not a simple presumtion of guilt and passing a sentence; this is EXACTLY what the insurance mandate does. The PPACA law requires us to do something new, using our own money no less. What CRIME have I comitted, by simply paying cash for my own medical care, that I should be fined for? Under MY fifth amendment right, against self incrimination, I will NOT file a federal tax return, so as to avoid the PPACA "conviction" and fine.
 
Last edited:
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

It's a new tax that can be potentially levied on members of any class.



Yes, it's a tax that comes with Death Panels.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Apparently, he was wrong.

Yeah, and what makes him a liar, instead of just wrong is that he keeps repeating it's not a tax, even after the decision.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

This opinion I totally agree with. "Christian" Americans seem so selfish and unconcerned about the well-being of their community. All they want is to live in the big mansion and attend their privileged church on Sundays. What about the broader CHURCH of Christ? Including the disbelievers.

I have spent the past 4 days trying to hitchhike up the road to stores. I have gotten 3 rides out of 10+ trips, one of which I asked for before sticking my thumb out. Another guy who helped is from Peru. Only one Caucasian American helped me out. That is a hit rate of 1 in 200+. Most people drive by are absorbed in their own world and unwilling to help another poor soul out. So much for the heart of America...it will bleed in the future.
I see. So because people wont pick up some greasy drifter hitch hiking along the road, all of America is selfish and rotten. Dude, sane people dont pick up hitch hikers. Buy a car and stop free-loading and looking for a free ride. Time to grow up.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

That is INSANE. Our constitution lists (enumerates) specific federal powers, NOWHERE does it say unless they become popular/unpopular. The constitution has been amended numerous times regrding voting "rights". Simply because something is popular does NOT make it constituional, as I have said there are many "nice" things that a gov't MAY do, but ours is supposed to be limitted by our constitution, then entire reason for even having a SCOTUS. If they now simply say that if congress passes it then it is OK, then save some money and dissovle the SCOTUS. Penalties for BREAKING laws are supposed to require a trial, not a simple presumtion of guilt and passing a sentence; this is EXACTLY what the insurance mandate does. The PPACA law requires us to do something new, using our own money no less. Under MY fifth amendment right, against self incrimination, I will NOT file a federal tax return, so as to avoid the PPACA "conviction" and fine.

Good luck with that. I guess I can do this when I don't agree with a war or any other taxes/fees levied against me as well?
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

That's obviously incorrect.

You obviously have nothing to refute it other than denial...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The thread isn't about cars, trucks and dealers. Again, analogies not necessary. Address the topic itself. It's not all that complex. I showed where the Obama admin argued it was a tax in court (posted the transcript). It's also been shown where, at the same time, the POTUS was telling the public it wasn't a tax.

You - all you have is a weak analogy to prop up your partisan argument.

About 1% are paying that "tax" in Mass. so if you want to say we are raisng taxes on 1% of Americans go for it.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

Yes, it's a tax that comes with Death Panels.

Well the insurance company Death Panel employees are gonna be out of work with the new law, so...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

Oh but we do have the right and it our obligation to make sure you do. Just because you want to leave accident victims to die by the side of the road does not mean it is right. Can you imagine if we just let people make all societies decsions on their own?
No, you have the power, not the 'right.' There is a big difference. And why is everything about dying on the side of the road with you guys? That is such a dumb argument and a straw man since no one is saying anything of the kind. Try to deal with what I write and not want you wish I had written and we might actually get somewhere.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

I see. So because people wont pick up some greasy drifter hitch hiking along the road, all of America is selfish and rotten. Dude, sane people dont pick up hitch hikers. Buy a car and stop free-loading and looking for a free ride. Time to grow up.

Wow, talk about irony!! :2rofll:

If a penalty is imposed to prevent people from free riding on the health care system it's cause for revolution -- not encouraging personal responsibility, as Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich argued. But if if someone asks someone for a ride that's freeloading!
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Yeah, and what makes him a liar, instead of just wrong is that he keeps repeating it's not a tax, even after the decision.

And the name it is called is important because?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

That is INSANE. Our constitution lists (enumerates) specific federal powers

Right. The power to tax is an enumerated power. As is the power to regulate interstate commerce.

NOWHERE does it say unless they become popular/unpopular. The constitution has been amended numerous times regrding voting "rights". Simply because something is popular does NOT make it constituional, as I have said many times, there are many "nice" things that a gov't MAY do, but ours is supposed to be limitted by our constitution, the entire reason for even having a SCOTUS. If the SCOTUS now simply says that if congress passes it then it is OK, then save some money and dissovle the SCOTUS.

Penalties for BREAKING laws are supposed to require a trial, not a simple presumtion of guilt and passing a sentence; this is EXACTLY what the insurance mandate does. The PPACA law requires us to do something new, using our own money no less. What CRIME have I comitted, by simply paying cash for my own medical care, that I should be fined for? Under MY fifth amendment right, against self incrimination, I will NOT file a federal tax return, so as to avoid the PPACA "conviction" and fine.

Again, there are some areas where we can write down a clear cut rule saying A is acceptable, but B is not, and that will stand the test of time and we don't even need to vote on it. For example, we know that government should not deny the vote to black people or prevent people from speaking freely or whatever. But most areas there is no clear cut simple rule that we can impose to separate good policy from bad policy. We can't say what wars ought to be fought and what ones ought not be fought in a simple phrase. We can't make a simple rule that will tell us when we should invest in scientific research and when we should not. For those kinds of things, we need to use democracy. Taxation and the regulation of corporations and whatnot are in that bucket.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386]

Wow, talk about irony!! :2rofll:

If a penalty is imposed to prevent people from free riding on the health care system it's cause for revolution -- not encouraging personal responsibility — as Mitt Romney argued). But if if someone asks someone for a ride that's freeloading!
You have a strange understanding of personal responsibility. If that is what you truly advocate, then responsibility for your health lies with you. If you cant afford it, you dont get it. But you dont really believe in personal responsibility at all, do you.
 
Re: Health care mandate is tax, will negatively affect middle, lower class, some say

You obviously have nothing to refute it other than denial...
Your statement was simply incorrect. Not all tax hikes on certain individuals, businesses, or transactions would result in a higher tax burden for every American. Not much discussion required to refute that claim.
 
Back
Top Bottom