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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The point being that the state can now tax you for not doing something they want you to do. Not sure why people would support that sort of thing.

The federal government has done that since at least World War II. They've just called it a tax credit, tax deduction, or tax exclusion...and given it to people who comply. They've taxed us for not owning a home mortgage, they've taxed us for not getting health insurance through our employers, they've taxed us for not having kids, they've taxed us for not contributing to a retirement plan, they've taxed us for not owning fuel-efficient cars, etc. This is nothing new.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The Republican voters mostly are less educated whites. The Republican politicians are mostly elites. And obviously the platform is exclusively designed to serve the elites. It's bizarre.

Inaccurate statement. Registered voters (Republican, Democrat, Independent) make up less than half of the US population. Polls on conservatives vs liberal population show that there are nearly twice as many people that identify as conservative over liberal in the US. So, to claim that Democrats are more educated than Republicans (assuming conservatives can loosely be described as Republicans vs liberals as democrats) is innaccurate. There are a lot more conservatives than liberals so it's likely there are just as many well educated Republicans, percentage wise.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Inaccurate statement. Registered voters (Republican, Democrat, Independent) make up less than half of the US population. Polls on conservatives vs liberal population show that there are nearly twice as many people that identify as conservative over liberal in the US. So, to claim that Democrats are more educated than Republicans (assuming conservatives can loosely be described as Republicans vs liberals as democrats) is innaccurate. There are a lot more conservatives than liberals so it's likely there are just as many well educated Republicans, percentage wise.

Sorry, but it is accurate. Studies of registered voters show that Democrats are mostly minorities and college educated whites, while Republicans are mostly non-college-educated whites.

graph-0.jpg
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Inaccurate statement. Registered voters (Republican, Democrat, Independent) make up less than half of the US population. Polls on conservatives vs liberal population show that there are nearly twice as many people that identify as conservative over liberal in the US. So, to claim that Democrats are more educated than Republicans (assuming conservatives can loosely be described as Republicans vs liberals as democrats) is innaccurate. There are a lot more conservatives than liberals so it's likely there are just as many well educated Republicans, percentage wise.

Its actually mixed results, at least in terms of voting (which is not the same as ideology, but its the best study I could find). In most demographics its essentially even, with college graduates being a minority.

2010-midterm-education.jpg


Percentage wise is percentage wise, I believe what you are trying to say is that there are more conservatives in absolute numbers based on percentages, which would be a more accurate statement.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Correct.



Yup.

You place no value on that element of the ideal of individual liberty called the right to private property. But the components of individual liberty are intertwined. Destroy one strand and you weaken the whole.



So that's why you're purposely spreading lies and misinformation, and fomenting racism.

You have to accept corrosive internal oppositon if you seek to transform my side out of existnece. I'm out to cause your side to fail. Sabotage is perfectly legitimate. Organizing politically based on separate identity groups is what the Democratic Party does. All sides lie by telling partial truths in order to arouse their bases.



With the exception of those constitutional limitations I mentioned, that's a fair assessment of my position, yes.



The Republican Party is the party of bitter old white dudes, and their wives. The Democratic Party is the party of everyone else. :lol:

America's dominance of world affairs is at an end. There are many consequences that flow from that fact. One consequence is that America's share of international wealth will shrink on a relative basis as power and wealth flow from America to China and other non-western countries. That means America will no longer have the excess wealth necessary to buy social peace. It will be necessary for your side to take from one separate identity group in order to advance the interests of other identity groups. Your side can't escape this because you have adopted an economic model that is being destroyed by Han China and the rest of the world. Every non-elite group will be in direct competition with all of the others in a pure zero sum game.

The American military will have to be gutted to make interest payments on an ever expanding national debt. Your side doesn't have enough money to pay its bills. Do you see the fiscal predicament the entitlement state is in when it no longer produces sufficient excess wealth to buy social peace?

Who will be the primary victims of this scenario? It will be somebody, but not old white folks. And it won't be African Americans or Hispanics or Asian Americans. It will be poorly educated young white people. How do you think they will feel? Do you think they will be happy with their lack of education and downward mobility?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You place no value on that element of the ideal of individual liberty called the right to private property. But the components of individual liberty are intertwined. Destroy one strand and you weaken the whole.





You have to accept corrosive internal oppositon if you seek to transform my side out of existnece. I'm out to cause your side to fail. Sabotage is perfectly legitimate. Organizing politically based on separate identity groups is what the Democratic Party does. All sides lie by telling partial truths in order to arouse their bases.



With the exception of those constitutional limitations I mentioned, that's a fair assessment of my position, yes.





America's dominance of world affairs is at an end. There are many consequences that flow from that fact. One consequence is that America's share of international wealth will shrink on a relative basis as power and wealth flow from America to China and other non-western countries. That means America will no longer have the excess wealth necessary to buy social peace. It will be necessary for your side to take from one separate identity group in order to advance the interests of other identity groups. Your side can't escape this because you have adopted an economic model that is being destroyed by Han China and the rest of the world. Every non-elite group will be in direct competition with all of the others in a pure zero sum game.

The American military will have to be gutted to make interest payments on an ever expanding national debt. Your side doesn't have enough money to pay its bills. Do you see the fiscal predicament the entitlement state is in when it no longer produces sufficient excess wealth to buy social peace?

Who will be the primary victims of this scenario? It will be somebody, but not old white folks. And it won't be African Americans or Hispanics or Asian Americans. It will be poorly educated young white people. How do you think they will feel? Do you think they will be happy with their lack of education and downward mobility?

Like I said, you already admitted that you're purposely spreading lies and misinformation and encouraging racism. And if that weren't clear, you just admitted again in this post that you're "out to sabotage" rather than actually discuss the subject at hand. So save yourself the trouble of typing out long replies to my posts. You know full well that I'm right on the substance of this issue and you don't even believe what you're arguing, so what's the point? Why should I take you seriously?
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

The Republican voters mostly are less educated whites. The Republican politicians are mostly elites. And obviously the platform is exclusively designed to serve the elites. It's bizarre.

Furthermore, if you think Kennedys, Kerrys, Edwards, Bidens etc, etc are not elites....you need to get reacquainted with reality.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

You could have been describing the late Thirties. What happened in 1941 to change all that?

If there is a good reason to unite, Americans will unite. If people push them to disunity, if people encourage dissolution, if extremists stir the waters of discontent and push for things like secession and the falling apart of America, then that sort of self fulfilling prophecy is on them.

A different America existed in 1941. It had social cohesion and assimilation to create a shared identity and consciousness. Assimilation is no longer operative. It has been replaced by identity politics which promote separation.

Don't expect violence...look for paralysis which prevents America from acting. There is no reason for people on my side to cooperate with those who fully intend to transform us out of existence. This is an existential threat. Don't you think it's logical for people on my side to prefer a greatly weakened America that isn't able to transform us out of existence?

What happens to beleagured minorities who are under constant hostile pressure from dominant majorities? What does history tell us? They make common cause with foreign powers in orderr to weaken the dominant majority. That's why the Roman general Boniface invited the Vandals into North Africa. That's why a Visigoth prince invited the Moors to introduce their wonderful cavalry into a Spanish civil war. That's why the Manchus collaborated with the Japanese during WWII against the Han Chinese.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Sorry, but it is accurate. Studies of registered voters show that Democrats are mostly minorities and college educated whites, while Republicans are mostly non-college-educated whites.

View attachment 67130176

That's not what that graphs shows. That graph shows how many Democrats have degrees.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Its actually mixed results, at least in terms of voting (which is not the same as ideology, but its the best study I could find). In most demographics its essentially even, with college graduates being a minority.

2010-midterm-education.jpg


Percentage wise is percentage wise, I believe what you are trying to say is that there are more conservatives in absolute numbers based on percentages, which would be a more accurate statement.

Better said, thank you.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Inaccurate statement. Registered voters (Republican, Democrat, Independent) make up less than half of the US population. Polls on conservatives vs liberal population show that there are nearly twice as many people that identify as conservative over liberal in the US. So, to claim that Democrats are more educated than Republicans (assuming conservatives can loosely be described as Republicans vs liberals as democrats) is innaccurate. There are a lot more conservatives than liberals so it's likely there are just as many well educated Republicans, percentage wise.

"conservative" and "Republican" aren't the same thing. Oddly, a number of Democrats identify as conservative. More or less all Republicans identify as conservative, most Democrats identify as moderate, but some as conservative and more as liberal. I don't know if people answer those surveys thinking of it like "I live a quiet, conservative lifestyle, so I am conservative" and aren't thinking about the political meaning or what, but that's how it plays out. Obviously you're aware that if the country were overwhelmingly Republican then the Republicans would win all the elections.

As far as education, last I saw, Republicans were slightly less likely to lack a high school degree than Democrats, but above that line Democrats trounce. For example, a college degree makes a white female voter 18% more likely to vote for a Democrat than females without college degrees. Once you get up to graduate degrees like law, medical, mba, etc, obviously Democrats dominate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Should I be following this topic?

What happens if it goes over the 2,000 post limit?

WHY? WHYYYY!?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Should I be following this topic?

What happens if it goes over the 2,000 post limit?

WHY? WHYYYY!?

There is a limit in the text indexing of the database, after about 2,000 posts, it creates issues with the responsiveness of the forum. At least that is how it was explained to me. I can't get into further detail because I do not know the specific implementation.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

"conservative" and "Republican" aren't the same thing. Oddly, a number of Democrats identify as conservative. More or less all Republicans identify as conservative, most Democrats identify as moderate, but some as conservative and more as liberal. I don't know if people answer those surveys thinking of it like "I live a quiet, conservative lifestyle, so I am conservative" and aren't thinking about the political meaning or what, but that's how it plays out. Obviously you're aware that if the country were overwhelmingly Republican then the Republicans would win all the elections.

I realize that, that's why I said "loosley". However, it's far more likely that a conservative leans towards Republicans than towards Democrats.

As far as education, last I saw, Republicans were slightly less likely to lack a high school degree than Democrats, but above that line Democrats trounce. For example, a college degree makes a white female voter 18% more likely to vote for a Democrat than females without college degrees. Once you get up to graduate degrees like law, medical, mba, etc, obviously Democrats dominate.

Mega's graph shows this statement to be inaccurate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Like I said, you already admitted that you're purposely spreading lies and misinformation and encouraging racism. And if that weren't clear, you just admitted again in this post that you're "out to sabotage" rather than actually discuss the subject at hand. So save yourself the trouble of typing out long replies to my posts. You know full well that I'm right on the substance of this issue and you don't even believe what you're arguing, so what's the point? Why should I take you seriously?

Kandahar. The best weapon is the truth. I haven't lied to YOU. I have no need to do so. I can sabotage your side by telling the truth. Here's an example. The future of your new America is bleak because it has failed for two full generations to make most of its children proficient in math, science, reading and writing. The PISA scores tell us this.

That means in turn that a significant percentage of the American people don't have the skills necessary to induce investment and the creation of jobs in America. Poor educations have consequences. You know that's true. And noting can be done to change those facts because there are too many vested special interests determined to ensure maintenance of the status quo in American public education. There will be no reform.

But most of the Sinosphere is moving ahead of America in terms of the quality of education of their citizens. Those well educated folks will be the recipients of future investments and jobs.

Americans are in the process of beccoming poorer. Chinese are in the process of becoming wealthier.

China is developing its human and natural resources. America isn't developing those resources.

American power is waning. Chinese and Indian power is expanding at exponential levels.

Do you see how these facts can be used agaisnt your side? External reality will soon be ready to end America's vacation from history.

External reality will suck the life out of the Blue Social and Govt. Model.

This is all inexorable now. The country has already passed the tipping point now. If I hadn't detached my emotions from America I would live in constant sorrow at this state of affairs.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

That's not what that graphs shows. That graph shows how many Democrats have degrees.

Many of those degrees are in subjects which have no economic value. Most liberal arts students will live poorer and meaner lives than their parents because America's power in the world is rapidly diminishing.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Kandahar. The best weapon is the truth. I haven't lied to YOU. I have no need to do so. I can sabotage your side by telling the truth. Here's an example. The future of your new America is bleak because it has failed for two full generations to make most of its children proficient in math, science, reading and writing. The PISA scores tell us this.

That means in turn that a significant percentage of the American people don't have the skills necessary to induce investment and the creation of jobs in America. Poor educations have consequences. You know that's true. And noting can be done to change those facts because there are too many vested special interests determined to ensure maintenance of the status quo in American public education. There will be no reform.

But most of the Sinosphere is moving ahead of America in terms of the quality of education of their citizens. Those well educated folks will be the recipients of future investments and jobs.

Americans are in the process of beccoming poorer. Chinese are in the process of becoming wealthier.

China is developing its human and natural resources. America isn't developing those resources.

American power is waning. Chinese and Indian power is expanding at exponential levels.

Do you see how these facts can be used agaisnt your side? External reality will soon be ready to end America's vacation from history.

External reality will suck the life out of the Blue Social and Govt. Model.

This is all inexorable now. The country has already passed the tipping point now. If I hadn't detached my emotions from America I would live in constant sorrow at this state of affairs.

I'm in this thread to discuss the Affordable Care Act, not China or education or how you're being oppressed by the big scary black man. If you don't have anything substantive to add to the conversation, I'm not interested.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Many of those degrees are in subjects which have no economic value. Most liberal arts students will live poorer and meaner lives than their parents because America's power in the world is rapidly diminishing.

I have a BS in Liberal Arts (BSL), and I'm doing ok.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I realize that, that's why I said "loosley". However, it's far more likely that a conservative leans towards Republicans than towards Democrats.

Yeah. But on balance it's about 50/50 Republican/Democrat.

Mega's graph shows this statement to be inaccurate.

That was true in the 2010 elections. Republicans swept. They beat out Democrats in lots of categories Democrats usually win. But it isn't true currently, and it wasn't true in 2008. Obama won people with college degrees by a substantial margin in 2008 and over the last couple years we've seen a major swing with uneducated white Democrats going Republican and educated white Republicans going over to the Democrats. All the anti-education, anti-science, simplistic slogan stuff comes with a cost. They're trying to take uneducated white voters from the Democrats, and they're succeeding, but the cost is losing educated white Republicans to the Democrats.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Many of those degrees are in subjects which have no economic value. Most liberal arts students will live poorer and meaner lives than their parents because America's power in the world is rapidly diminishing.

MY mother has a Masters Degree from Columbia University.

I make more money than she ever did.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Yeah. But on balance it's about 50/50 Republican/Democrat.

Which would mean that 50% of sitting Democrats describe themselves as conservative. I doubt you could substantiate that.

That was true in the 2010 elections. Republicans swept. They beat out Democrats in lots of categories Democrats usually win. But it isn't true currently, and it wasn't true in 2008. Obama won people with college degrees by a substantial margin in 2008 and over the last couple years we've seen a major swing with uneducated white Democrats going Republican and educated white Republicans going over to the Democrats. All the anti-education, anti-science, simplistic slogan stuff comes with a cost. They're trying to take uneducated white voters from the Democrats, and they're succeeding, but the cost is losing educated white Republicans to the Democrats.

And in the 2008 elections, Democrats swept, mostly on the votes of young non-graduates.

I'm done with this sub thread, though. This discussion is about ACA, not demonizing parties.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Which would mean that 50% of sitting Democrats describe themselves as conservative. I doubt you could substantiate that.

blue dog democrats ...

And in the 2008 elections, Democrats swept, mostly on the votes of young non-graduates.

college students mainly though, they were well on their way to coming in alignment with the future demographic.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

blue dog democrats ...

Is that 50% of sitting Democrats? From what I understand, it was mostly blue dogs that lost seats in 2010.

college students mainly though, they were well on their way to coming in alignment with the future demographic.

Mainly...I doubt it. The huge minority turnout for Obama was not "mostly college students."
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Is that 50% of sitting Democrats? From what I understand, it was mostly blue dogs that lost seats in 2010.

the blue dog coalition is alive and well. A few other factors come into play. While more of the country may identify as conservative, it doesn't mean they vote. voting patterns for the last century are about 50/50 in totality, this is also true for the last 10-15 years.

Mainly...I doubt it. The huge minority turnout for Obama was not "mostly college students."

The huge minority turn out, while a factor, was not what put him over the edge, which was the youth vote.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

I'm in this thread to discuss the Affordable Care Act, not China or education or how you're being oppressed by the big scary black man. If you don't have anything substantive to add to the conversation, I'm not interested.

I don't blame you. If I were you I wouldn't want to talk about the inexorability of external reality either.

Our conversation meandered because we started talking about what conservatives could do now in the face of the decision in Roberts v. America. I said that the only thing they could do would be to do what the American political culture dictates. That's sabotage. Both sides do it. Then we talked about how bleak things were for my side, and I mentioned hard cold reality. Sorry for the digression.
 
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