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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2[W:1, 183, 386, 590]

Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

OpportunityCost said:
Hmm, so the thing going on with Catholic institutions, thats the GOP plan? How about the elimination of HSAs? How about elimination of numerous medical plans? How about the minimum floor for coverage where the penalty kicks in? How about the doc fix, that tore up medicare funding? How about all the tax structures that are set up? The 1099 minimum reporting? Are you REALLY saying thats all the GOP? Because I dont think so. They took the mandate, which was a neccessary evil of implementation and made it even ****tier in true DC fashion.

Again, states are the proper way to both establish a mandate and experiment with various laws and structures to find what works and what does not.
Click to expand...

Here is a NY Times article that compares Romnies plan and Obamacare.

Massachusetts State law…………. Yes, or pay up to a $1,200 a year penalty.


Affordable Care Act……………. Federal law, Yes,or pay a penalty of $95 a year in 2014, then $695 a year in 2016, when penalty fully implemented.

Instead of C and P the whole article, check out the link. To these bloodshot ole eyes it looks like mittens plan is the template for obamacare.:2wave:

Comparing Two Health Care Laws - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Hey, if you want to play at being obtuse you can do it on your own time. :)
Click to expand...

You claim 'Republicans created' it, I ask you to substantiate this and you throw a couple of turds at the wall to see if one sticks and I'M THE ONE BEING OBTUSE...wondering who has been wasting the other's time...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
You claim 'Republicans created' it, I ask you to substantiate this and you throw a couple of turds at the wall to see if one sticks and I'M THE ONE BEING OBTUSE...wondering who has been wasting the other's time...
Click to expand...

Again, we have established that Republicans came up with the primary structures of the plan: a healthcare mandate, no denial for preexisting conditions, subsidized insurance for lower income people, etc., etc.

Want more detail? Read Romney's health care law, or peruse the 1993 Republican law authored by Sen. Chafee and cosponsored by over a dozen other Republicans (and even two Democrats!):

Summary Of A 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan - Kaiser Health News

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/sourcefiles/senate_bill_1770_1993.pdf
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Again, we have established that Republicans came up with the primary structures of the plan: a healthcare mandate, no denial for preexisting conditions, subsidized insurance for lower income people, etc., etc.

Want more detail? Read Romney's health care law, or peruse the 1993 Republican law authored by Sen. Chafee and cosponsored by over a dozen other Republicans (and even two Democrats!):

Summary Of A 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan - Kaiser Health News

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/sourcefiles/senate_bill_1770_1993.pdf
Click to expand...

DANG...I see your point now...Those Republican ideas REALLY ARE GOOD...Good thing this is an election year...We can get MORE of them in office...thanks for that...:lamo
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
DANG...I see your point now...Those Republican ideas REALLY ARE GOOD...Good thing this is an election year...We can get MORE of them in office...thanks for that...:lamo
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Well there is the small problem that the present Republican Party is denying the value of those ideas they once promoted. Seems like they really could care less about the wellbeing of the nation and more about controlling the reins of power.

Or in other words, they will say and do anything that gets rid of that black usurper in 'their' White House - even when it is a 180 turn from what they once advocated.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
DANG...I see your point now...Those Republican ideas REALLY ARE GOOD...Good thing this is an election year...We can get MORE of them in office...thanks for that...:lamo
Click to expand...

Yeah, great ideas. Too bad they've sworn to repeal their own plan. :roll:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Again, we have established that Republicans came up with the primary structures of the plan: a healthcare mandate, no denial for preexisting conditions, subsidized insurance for lower income people, etc., etc.

Want more detail? Read Romney's health care law, or peruse the 1993 Republican law authored by Sen. Chafee and cosponsored by over a dozen other Republicans (and even two Democrats!):
Click to expand...

Kinda curious, if these were/are so good ideas to Democrats now why didn't they pass them in '93?

As to Romney's plan, considering that Massachusetts is PREDOMINATELY a ‘blue state’ and the state Legislature was a supermajority in both houses at the time do you REALLY believe he could get a ‘Republican creation’ passed? How about Romney’s veto’s to portions of the passed legislation? What were the results of these?
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Somerville said:
Well there is the small problem that the present Republican Party is denying the value of those ideas they once promoted. Seems like they really could care less about the wellbeing of the nation and more about controlling the reins of power.
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Who are you kiddin'? WE ALL know from the myriad of posts here on DP the Republicans lie...heck, they will lie straight into office then renege on repeal...

Or in other words, they will say and do anything that gets rid of that black usurper in 'their' White House - even when it is a 180 turn from what they once advocated.
Click to expand...

That's racist...
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
Kinda curious, if these were/are so good ideas to Democrats now why didn't they pass them in '93?
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They didn't pass them because Democrats had a better health care plan in '93. But Republicans and the insurance industry killed it, so this time around Dems offered up the Republican plan. And of course they tried to kill it again! :lol:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
Cool place...how's the fishin'?
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Whoaa that was pretty bizarre. Not what I meant to link to at all.

The fishing is usually good in the spring and fall though.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
That was weird.

PolitiFact | Obama says Heritage Foundation is source of health exchange idea
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Interesting read. Various points:

I especially like this analogy "the Obama health-care law 'builds' on the Heritage health reform model only in the sense that, say, a double-quarter-pounder with cheese 'builds' on the idea of a garden salad. Both have lettuce and tomato and may be called food, but the similarities end there."

-- Who can use the exchange? In a 2006 paper, Moffit wrote, "Ideally, an exchange should be open to all state residents and all interested employers, regardless of the size of the firm, who want to arrange health insurance through the exchange."

That's not the case with the exchanges in the new law -- at least not any time soon...

Scholars credit Alain C. Enthoven -- an emeritus professor at the Stanford University Graduate School of Business who worked in the Defense Department during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations -- with popularizing the idea for an exchange as many as three decades ago.
Click to expand...

This specifically refutes your ‘exchange lynchpin’ created by Heritage/Republican point…remind me again which party Kennedy and Johnson were in…

And per the opinions of ‘Politifact staff’:
We agree with Heritage that the differences between its original vision and the version enacted into law are not trivial, and are enough to undercut the president's effort to secure a Heritage Foundation seal of approval for his bill
Click to expand...

Overall the ‘mostly true’ rating was based on the Presidents crafty ‘wordsmithing’ as evidenced by the summary paragraph. Their challenge was to validate the Presidents statement not the similarities between PPACA/Heritage/Romneycare…
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
They didn't pass them because Democrats had a better health care plan in '93. But Republicans and the insurance industry killed it, so this time around Dems offered up the Republican plan. And of course they tried to kill it again! :lol:
Click to expand...

Er...uh, weren’t the Democrats the majority party in ’93? Why yes, yes they were but it didn’t matter. They couldn’t get enough Democrats behind the bill (must not have been so good):

In August 1994, Democratic Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell introduced a compromise proposal that would have delayed requirements of employers until 2002, and exempted small businesses. However, "even with Mitchell’s bill, there were not enough Democratic Senators behind a single proposal to pass a bill, let alone stop a filibuster
Click to expand...

Politics, Power & Policy Making: The Case of Health Care Reform in the 1990s - Mark E. Rushefsky, Kant Patel - Google Books

Of course this attempt in shoving through the bill lead to a voter backlash (Remind me again how many years had the Democrats held Congress prior to this) which DID put Republicans in power and certainly killed any further progress. Kinda déjà vu of 2010…
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
Er...uh, weren’t the Democrats the majority party in ’93? Why yes, yes they were but it didn’t matter. They couldn’t get enough Democrats behind the bill (must not have been so good):



Politics, Power & Policy Making: The Case of Health Care Reform in the 1990s - Mark E. Rushefsky, Kant Patel - Google Books

Of course this attempt in shoving through the bill lead to a voter backlash (Remind me again how many years had the Democrats held Congress prior to this) which DID put Republicans in power and certainly killed any further progress. Kinda déjà vu of 2010…
Click to expand...

Please do not bother Mr T. with facts. Boring and not on script.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

OpportunityCost said:
Hmm, so the thing going on with Catholic institutions, thats the GOP plan? How about the elimination of HSAs? How about elimination of numerous medical plans? How about the minimum floor for coverage where the penalty kicks in? How about the doc fix, that tore up medicare funding? How about all the tax structures that are set up? The 1099 minimum reporting? Are you REALLY saying thats all the GOP? Because I dont think so. They took the mandate, which was a neccessary evil of implementation and made it even ****tier in true DC fashion.

Again, states are the proper way to both establish a mandate and experiment with various laws and structures to find what works and what does not.
Click to expand...

Virtually every facet of the ACA except for the mandate enjoys a clear plurality, if not outright majority, of support among Americans.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Dickieboy said:
Er...uh, weren’t the Democrats the majority party in ’93? Why yes, yes they were but it didn’t matter. They couldn’t get enough Democrats behind the bill (must not have been so good):

Politics, Power & Policy Making: The Case of Health Care Reform in the 1990s - Mark E. Rushefsky, Kant Patel - Google Books

Of course this attempt in shoving through the bill lead to a voter backlash (Remind me again how many years had the Democrats held Congress prior to this) which DID put Republicans in power and certainly killed any further progress. Kinda déjà vu of 2010…
Click to expand...

None of which contradicts the fact that it was a better bill than the Republican alternative ... unless you are willing to concede that the fact of ACA's passage proves that it's a damned-fine bill. :)

There's no question that Clinton botched his try at health care reform politically, but the main reason it failed was the massive and successful sell job by the insurance industry.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Phys251 said:
Virtually every facet of the ACA except for the mandate enjoys a clear plurality, if not outright majority, of support among Americans.
Click to expand...

I think you mean the freebies that the bill made sure was available before the bulk of the bill to try and get support for what the people have not seen yet.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Somerville said:
Well there is the small problem that the present Republican Party is denying the value of those ideas they once promoted. Seems like they really could care less about the wellbeing of the nation and more about controlling the reins of power.

Or in other words, they will say and do anything that gets rid of that black usurper in 'their' White House - even when it is a 180 turn from what they once advocated.
Click to expand...


Just heard on the local news that the Repub Governors, elected in the last elections, have pulled their states back from the brink. Seems to me like they "really" DO "care" MORE "about the wellbeing of the nation" than you give them credit. They're doing a splendid job of putting their constituents before politics, unlike Dems who will eventually want to MANDATE what toliet paper everyone uses. :mrgreen:
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

Billy the Kid said:
Just heard on the local news that the Repub Governors, elected in the last elections, have pulled their states back from the brink. Seems to me like they "really" DO "care" MORE "about the wellbeing of the nation" than you give them credit. They're doing a splendid job of putting their constituents before politics, unlike Dems who will eventually want to MANDATE what toliet paper everyone uses. :mrgreen:
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Misleading statistics.... But they do lead the nation in one category: disapproval. These Tea Party governors have some of the lowest approval ratings in the country. Corbett in PA - 36%. Rick Scott in FL - 31%. John Kasich in OH - 41%....
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
None of which contradicts the fact that it was a better bill than the Republican alternative ... unless you are willing to concede that the fact of ACA's passage proves that it's a damned-fine bill. :)
Click to expand...
Ambiguous…

There's no question that Clinton botched his try at health care reform politically, but the main reason it failed was the massive and successful sell job by the insurance industry.
Click to expand...

The insurance industry was strong enough to get the DEMOCRATS to vote against THEIR OWN bill?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
Misleading statistics.... But they do lead the nation in one category: disapproval. These Tea Party governors have some of the lowest approval ratings in the country. Corbett in PA - 36%. Rick Scott in FL - 31%. John Kasich in OH - 41%....
Click to expand...

Nice try for the twist. What's being reported is that all the republican governors elected in 2010 have reduced unemployment in their states.

As an Obama supporter you'd do well to steer away from disapproval numbers. :mrgreen:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

clownboy said:
Nice try for the twist. What's being reported is that all the republican governors elected in 2010 have reduced unemployment in their states.

As an Obama supporter you'd do well to steer away from disapproval numbers. :mrgreen:
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As noted elsewhere, EVERY governor has reduced unemployment since 2010. :lol:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives-Part 2

AdamT said:
As noted elsewhere, EVERY governor has reduced unemployment since 2010. :lol:
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No, not true. First, the point was “governors elected in 2010” which does not include EVERY governor. New York has seen a UE increase…there is also the disparity in the decrease. From the article:

Voters in 17 states elected new Republican governors in November 2010…The average drop in the unemployment rate in these states was 1.35%

Now let's look at the eight states that elected new Democratic governors in 2010… The average drop in the unemployment rate in these states was 0.95%, approximately the same as the drop seen nationally.
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New Republican governors rapidly bringing down unemployment in their states - Orlando Political Buzz | Examiner.com

DAMN…those ‘tea party supported’ governors elected in 2010 decreased their UE 42% more than their Democratic counterparts…that seems pretty significant wouldn't you agree?
 
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