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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

U.S. Health Care Satisfaction Trails Others

So the answer is YES. We pay double what other countries pay and receive, on average, about the same level of care, and we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other countries.

America lags in health because it is both a First World Country and a Third World country. America's Third World character has to be kept in mind when comparing it to purely First World countries.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

U.S. Health Care Satisfaction Trails Others

So the answer is YES. We pay double what other countries pay and receive, on average, about the same level of care, and we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other countries.


So why do the Canadians come here for pre-planned surgery? Is it because we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other count, or because they're so backed up with their brand of socilized medicine?
 
What Obama's Affordable Care Act Will Cost Consumers - Business Insider



Liberals are actually gloating over these numbers. Just because Roberts punted this garbage back to the other 2 branches doesn't mean it's a good law. And yes it's Unconstitutional. Roberts went activist because he was afraid the Court would be "Mic Checked" by Obama and the Democrats if he didn't cave to their thuggery and intimidation.

Those numbers are + the deductibles, copays and coinsurance.

General percentage by level paid by consumer
(through deductibles, copays and coinsurance)

Bronze Level – 40%
Silver Level – 30%
Gold Level – 20%
Platinum Level – 10%

What kind of coverage will the plans sold through the health insurance exchanges include?

as I pointed out before someone on the Bronze plan with the 40% deductible that needed a hip operation would have to come up with about $15,000 out of pocket. If your barely making it you'll need to make a mortgage out of it or head to Bankruptcy court. I wonder how long it will be before they change the medical bills to the same as student loans, can't be discharged in Bankruptcy court.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

By what logic does just under a trillion dollars have "no impact" on the budget? :lol:

There were a trillion in cuts elsewhere in the legislation that offset the increased costs of Obamacare according to the numbers the administration gave to the CBO. Those numbers were false. A lie is a lie. That lie was the basis for use of the Budget Reconciliation Act. That lie delegitimates use of the Budget Reconciliation process for Obamacare in the Senate.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

So why do the Canadians come here for pre-planned surgery? Is it because we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other count, or because they're so backed up with their brand of socilized medicine?

Why do Americans -- like Sarah Palin -- go to Canada for health care?
44 - Palin says her family went to Canada for health care when she was young

Most Canadians are quite happy with their health care system. That doesn't mean that it's perfect or that it's better in every respect.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

So why do the Canadians come here for pre-planned surgery? Is it because we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other count, or because they're so backed up with their brand of socilized medicine?

They don't want to have to wait 4 to 6 months just to see a endocrinologist or a neurologist. In 2007 the average wait time between seeing your family doctor and the specialist or therapeutic care was 18+ weeks, I doubt it has improved substantially.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

There were a trillion in cuts elsewhere in the legislation that offset the increased costs of Obamacare according to the numbers the administration gave to the CBO. Those numbers were false. A lie is a lie. That lie was the basis for use of the Budget Reconciliation Act. That lie delegitimates use of the Budget Reconciliation process for Obamacare in the Senate.

I guess that's why the law has been overturned. Oh wait ... it hasn't. I suppose the conservatives who have been going after the law like rabid dogs haven't figured out what you figured out.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

They don't want to have to wait 4 to 6 months just to see a endocrinologist or a neurologist. In 2007 the average wait time between seeing your family doctor and the specialist or therapeutic care was 18+ weeks, I doubt it has improved substantially.

"In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems."
The Doctor Will See You??n Three Months - Businessweek
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Why do Americans -- like Sarah Palin -- go to Canada for health care?
44 - Palin says her family went to Canada for health care when she was young

Most Canadians are quite happy with their health care system. That doesn't mean that it's perfect or that it's better in every respect.


You know what, I don't agree with you on issues, but you always seemed to be a tad above the norm.

But PALIN? Really? You had to go there?

Shun.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

They don't want to have to wait 4 to 6 months just to see a endocrinologist or a neurologist. In 2007 the average wait time between seeing your family doctor and the specialist or therapeutic care was 18+ weeks, I doubt it has improved substantially.


Spot on. :(
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Not really that surprised. Liberals often speak about rights and "thinking independently" but when it comes down to it they are just as bad as conservatives in the thinking department.

A good step toward thinking independently would be to actually learn what's in the law you hate so much. The fact that you thought you would be on the hook for the mandate for health insurance you can't afford, and that you didn't know what a health insurance exchange is, suggests that you are not aware of the main provisions of the law. Therefore it makes me wonder how you could have possibly come to hate it so much when you don't even know what it is. The only possible answer to that question is that you have allowed right-wing pundits to whip you into a frenzy. :roll:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Except the coverage ain't so great. For those who can barely afford the Bronze coverage, how can they afford to pay 40% of the health care bills?

Never said the coverage was great.

But nothing stopped companies from dropping their health care last month or last year, or 4 years ago, or 8 years ago. So I just don't buy it as a reason that Obamacare is a horrible change. It's also why I'm not a big fan of it.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

I was not SOL. Know what I did? Pay the medical bill. Imagine that...someone taking responsibility for thier bills. Yeah it may take time and not be paid all at once. But at least it is paid off on my own dime and not anyone elses.

That only works if your bills are small enough to make it relatively affordable, and if you can't afford health insurance then you certainly can't afford a big bill. What are you going to do if you get hit by a bus tomorrow and spend six months in the hospital? Probably stick the hospital with the bill.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

So why do the Canadians come here for pre-planned surgery? Is it because we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other count, or because they're so backed up with their brand of socilized medicine?



Patient choice.

Canadian politician chooses American health care system for surgery


I would choose better care as well.

In a 90% chance of success vs 95% choice? Yeah go with the 95%. Thats a die roll not to fool with.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And yet ironically alot of people that I have talked to about thier countries UHC they have all agreed that they got crap service. And you want this for us? Again, not surprised.

If you've been getting good service from the current system, you are in a small minority.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

That only works if your bills are small enough to make it relatively affordable, and if you can't afford health insurance then you certainly can't afford a big bill. What are you going to do if you get hit by a bus tomorrow and spend six months in the hospital? Probably stick the hospital with the bill.


Isn't this a worse case scenerio?

I have insurance and have had a few surgeries and had not one bit of trouble with the insurance company. I happen to be very, very satisfied with my health insurance. But now I think those days are gone. And I realize you're going to tell me that's not going to happen, but in my experience with any govt program, eventually it goes to hell in a handbasket and cost twice as much as it should.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Use of the Budget Reconciliation Act in the Senate to pass Obamacare was illegitimate. The Budget Reconciliation process can only be used if a piece of legislation has no budgetary impact. Obamacare was scored by the CBO as having no impact because the cost was supposed to have no budget impact because it was kept under a trillion dollars. After passage the CBO looked at the costs again and determined that the cost will instead be about $1.7 trillion over the next ten years.

That means that Obamacare did have a budgetary impact and that the Budget Reconciliation process could not be used by the legislation's advocates in the Senate. They did it any way based on a lie to the CBO and the people.

This seems to be a running gag within the Obama Administration. Every supposed figure they project from HC costs on through unemployment keeps getting revised higher than their initial projections. I'm sure it's just bureacratic oversight or something.

CBO: Obamacare to cost $1.76 trillion over 10 yrs | WashingtonExaminer.com

Republicans can use reconciliation and they will

The Republican recipe for repeal - POLITICO.com Print View
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And yet ironically alot of people that I have talked to about thier countries UHC they have all agreed that they got crap service. And you want this for us? Again, not surprised.

The Commonwealth Fund (a nonpartisan health care policy thinktank) studied the health care systems in seven countries and compared the quality. The seven countries were the US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Australia, and New Zealand. They compared them across 11 different variables that measured the quality of their health care systems. On 8 of the 11 variables, the US ranked sixth or seventh among the seven nations...and didn't rank better than fourth on any of them. The US also came in dead last for overall quality. But there is one variable where the US came in first: money spent. The US spends far more per capita ($7,290) on health care than any of the other countries. The runner-up, Canada, spent only $3,895.

Perhaps this suggests that there is something that we could be learning from these other countries, which spend less and (your anecdote about dissatisfied foreigners notwithstanding) have better quality.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

The Commonwealth Fund (a nonpartisan health care policy thinktank) studied the health care systems in seven countries and compared the quality. The seven countries were the US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Australia, and New Zealand. They compared them across 11 different variables that measured the quality of their health care systems. On 8 of the 11 variables, the US ranked sixth or seventh among the seven nations...and didn't rank better than fourth on any of them. The US also came in dead last for overall quality. But there is one variable where the US came in first: money spent. The US spends far more per capita ($7,290) on health care than any of the other countries. The runner-up, Canada, spent only $3,895.

Perhaps this suggests that there is something that we could be learning from these other countries, which spend less and (your anecdote about dissatisfied foreigners notwithstanding) have better quality.

Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: How the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally, 2010 Update - The Commonwealth Fund

That's an unfair comparison. With the exception of the United States all of the countries used in the cited report are totally First World countries. The United States is both a First and a Third World country. That has to be taken into consideration. America is a cross between Canada and Mexico. That puts the US in a different category.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And yet ironically alot of people that I have talked to about thier countries UHC they have all agreed that they got crap service. And you want this for us? Again, not surprised.

Not sure whom it is you're talking to, but they dont speak for the majority of people in Canada:

Canada
Main article: Health care in Canada
Health Canada, a federal department, publishes a series of surveys of the health care system in Canada based on Canadians first hand experience of the health care system. The following data are from the latest report.[64]
Waiting times
Although life threatening cases are dealt with immediately, some specialist services needed are non-urgent and patients are seen at the next available appointment in their local chosen facility.
The median wait time in Canada to see a specialist physician is a little over a month with 89.5% waiting less than 3 months.[64]
The median wait time for non-urgent diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans[65] is about two weeks with 86.4% waiting less than 3 months.[64]
The median wait time for elective surgery is a month with 82.2% waiting less than 3 months.[64]
Prescription drug costs
Although Canadians get the services of their physicians and hospitals included, they do have to meet the cost of prescription drugs themselves. Many take out insurance for this but this is not compulsory. Some people do meet some expenses themselves out of pocket.
34.3% of adults reported having no out of pocket costs for prescription drug costs. 96.2% of adults pay less than 5% of their disposable income on prescription drugs.[64]
Overall satisfaction rate
85.2% of Canadians reported that they were "satisfied" or "very satisfied" with the way health care services are provided in their country and an even higher number (89.8%) rated their physician in the same way though slightly lower ratings were awarded to hospitals (79.9% being "satisfied" or "very satisfied").[64]

You can also find information for several other countires here Socialized medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many Canadians come to America to get health care? Not too many...how many Americans go to Canada to get health care? Plenty.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Use of the Budget Reconciliation Act in the Senate to pass Obamacare was illegitimate. The Budget Reconciliation process can only be used if a piece of legislation has no budgetary impact.

Actually it's only supposed to be used if it reduces the deficit, but continuing on...

Obamacare was scored by the CBO as having no impact because the cost was supposed to have no budget impact because it was kept under a trillion dollars. After passage the CBO looked at the costs again and determined that the cost will instead be about $1.7 trillion over the next ten years.

That means that Obamacare did have a budgetary impact and that the Budget Reconciliation process could not be used by the legislation's advocates in the Senate. They did it any way based on a lie to the CBO and the people.

Very little of the ACA was passed via reconciliation. The bulk of the bill (including the individual mandate) was passed normally, with 60 votes in the Senate. Only a few changes were passed via reconciliation, and those few changes did not increase the budget deficit.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

hell in a handbasket and cost twice as much as it should.

That may be the technical definition of government assistance.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

In 2007 we didn't have 40 million new patients and few new doctors did we.

Nor will we until 2014. Waiting times certainly will get worse. We have too many specialists and not enough primary care physicians.
 
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