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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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Actually the reality is that if we can't provide decent healthcare for our citizens then we must resign ourself to the fact that we are a failed society. You seem quite content with failure.

Society hasnt failed because you have a bad attitude about the fact that not everyone has everything they need. Society has really failed when it recklessly spends itself into a collapse scenario.

Financial failure spreads to all out economic failure. If your sense of universal fairness straps you into a set of policies that are financially self-destructive, then it's you who is content with failure, not me.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Small business owners will try to keep their emplyees numbers below 49. Why would it make sense to hire more people when much of the work can be outsourced without having to deal with American regulatory and tax burdens. Most small businesses are in survival mode and will remain there.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Naturally. Have to give them tons of money and access to the company jet to attract the right talent! Somehow this never gets applied to teachers...

When the economy is bad, companies can more easily get away with dropping health care plans because people need the job. When things are better, people will have more options, and therefore will have the option to not work for the crappy company who dropped its health care plan.

One thing that bothers me about this is how half the right-wing doesn't even seem upset about the ruling because they see it as another weapon to use in election season. This tells me they care less about the content of the laws and more about how they can "win."

So we can repeal this garbage reform bill and get to work on something the people want.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

The owners of Dredd Scott also had the Supreme Court on their side. That decision helped precipitate the Civil War.

LOL go for it. If you want to secede from the country, I'm certainly not going to stop you. Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you. :2wave:

The law is illegitimate because its passage was induced through fraud. Congress debated whether the Mandate was a tax and specifically rejected that basis because Congress didn't want to be held accountable for raising taxes. President Obama specifically said the Mandate wasn't a tax. Then President Obama's lawyers went to court and argued the Mandate was valid as an exercise of the power of taxation. That's called fraud in the inducement.

Nah, that's called standard political salesmanship that occurs with ANY piece of major legislation. For constitutional purposes, the Supreme Court has ruled that it's a tax. For political purposes, Obama can call it whatever he likes, Romney can call it whatever he likes, and the voters will decide which vision they like better.

That fraud is what ensures that the furor won't die.

If all laws were invalid if there was any political spin associated with them, Congress would never get anything done. :lol:

The flames of controversy will also be fanned by increased costs, declining quality and clear cut rationing. The line of causation to Obamacare will be readily apparent, and will impact white seniors particularly.

It's pretty difficult to take you seriously with all the racist **** you write.
 
raising taxes= raising marginal income tax rates.

It's still more money out of the average persons pocket isn't it. Obama and the Democrats are going to get clobbered in November as there is only 34% support for the health care bill in 2012.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Naturally. Have to give them tons of money and access to the company jet to attract the right talent! Somehow this never gets applied to teachers...

Sorry?
Median Household income for the rural county I live in is 43K...
Average teacher salary for the same county is 59k, starting salary is 38k and over the last 10 years they have gotten salary raises of 43%.

Dont play this whiny bull**** with me. Teachers are doing fine.

For this county 30k is doing ok, in a 2 income household 100k/year is enough to buy any house in the county if you manage your money decently. Its about like making double in Cali land.
 
What was the point of the 10th amendment if ACA is constitutional? Congress can now pass any law that it desires under the guise that they're simply increasing taxes, but giving you a tax credit for yielding to its demands. The 10th amendment was designed to limit Congress's power to what was specified in the constitution.

This ruling by SCOTUS instead says that Congress can make any rule that it wants so long as 1) it isn't specifically restricted by the constitution and 2) their means of enforcement is taxation.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]


This is no fallacy. Its been proven time and again that if you give the government an inch they take 50 miles. Take Social Security Cards for instance. It was NEVER meant to be used in practically everything. In fact my dad still has his original which said that it was NOT to be given out for any reason. (and yes, they capitilized "NOT"). Now you need it for damn near anything. Even government jobs despite their original claim.

Another example: Patriot Act. Another example: not allowing farmers to grow things over a certain amount per acreage. Another example: Citizens United.

Should I really go on? This is no fallacy. It has historical factual precedence. You can keep your head in the sand if you want. But don't come crying to me when I am proving right.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Nah, that's called standard political salesmanship that occurs with ANY piece of major legislation. For constitutional purposes, the Supreme Court has ruled that it's a tax. For political purposes, Obama can call it whatever he likes, Romney can call it whatever he likes, and the voters will decide which vision they like better.

Except that if it isn't a tax, then its unconstitutional, as per the SCOTUS opinion. Which means, its a tax, that can be repealed/replaced using reconciliation, just like reconciliation was valid to pass it in the first place.
 
It's still more money out of the average persons pocket isn't it. Obama and the Democrats are going to get clobbered in November as there is only 34% support for the health care bill in 2012.

What Obama's Affordable Care Act Will Cost Consumers - Business Insider

Consumer penalties: Part of the controversy surrounding health care reform was that the law would mandate coverage for all Americans on pain of penalties. Those penalties will be tiered and rise over a three-year period that kicks off in 2014, according to the National Association of Consumer Protection:

2014: Families––$285 or 1 percent of total household income, whichever is greater. Individual adults––$95.
2015: Families––$975 or 2 percent of income, whichever is greater. Individual adults––$325.
2016: Families––$2,085 or 2.5 percent of income, whichever is greater. Individual adults––$695.


If you're not covered by your employer, you'll have to pick from a list of government-mandated health insurance packages (they'll be called "exchanges", with options for individuals and businesses provided at the state level). Some exceptions do apply, including low-income families who can prove financial hardship.

Liberals are actually gloating over these numbers. Just because Roberts punted this garbage back to the other 2 branches doesn't mean it's a good law. And yes it's Unconstitutional. Roberts went activist because he was afraid the Court would be "Mic Checked" by Obama and the Democrats if he didn't cave to their thuggery and intimidation.
 
the average person, already has health insurance.

the average person, won't pay one penny more in taxes, due to the ACA.

No, they'll pay more in premiums and pay higher deductibles over time, as they have been. The provisions dont cap or control what insurance companies can charge. And now that their customers are federally mandated to remain customers, what's to prevent them from jacking rates further?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

LOL go for it. If you want to secede from the country, I'm certainly not going to stop you. Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you. :2wave:

Secession is out of the question. It's best to stay right here in America and to keep the political system frozen in paralysis so that the country can't adapt to the changed circumstances in the world caused by the shifting forces of history, e.g., the rise of China.



Nah, that's called standard political salesmanship that occurs with ANY piece of major legislation. For constitutional purposes, the Supreme Court has ruled that it's a tax. For political purposes, Obama can call it whatever he likes, Romney can call it whatever he likes, and the voters will decide which vision they like better.

The political culture doesn't work that way any more. The political culture dictates that each side undermine, sandbag and back stab each other. It's difficult to build something positive. It's easy to destroy something through sabotage.



If all laws were invalid if there was any political spin associated with them, Congress would never get anything done. :lol:

Nothing is going to get done in Congress because the political system is paralyzed.



It's pretty difficult to take you seriously with all the racist **** you write.

You're entitled to your opinion.
 
So tell me again how the opt-outters are screwing The People? It doesn't sound like they have a way to simply evade all personal medical costs. Comparatively, it's by far the Medicaid and Medicare beneficiaries who are doing the most amount of screwing.

It's pretty simple. Insurance works by spreading risk among a large, diverse population. If people only buy insurance when they get sick, insurance premiums would cost something like $100,000/yr. In other words, there would be no health insurance. Fortunately most people are responsible and they provide for their medical care when they can afford it. If someone can afford it but elects NOT to provide for his medical care, and then only signs on when he gets sick, that drives up costs for all the responsible people. Get it?

So whether people are insured or not is irrelevant, as either way the cost of their care will be transferred.

No, for the most part the cost of their care will be SPREAD amongst the insurance pool -- not transferred.

The cost of living in a civilized society is to be on the hook for everyone's potentially limitless health care needs when it's clear that as a nation we cannot afford it? When the problem is financing a need that exceeds the ability to keep paying for it, the "cost of living in a civilized society" argument is an utter copout.

What's a copout is saying that, unlike every other civilized country in the world, the United States of America can't afford to take care of its citizens. That's a pathetic cop out. The solution isn't to throw your hands up in the air and say, "too bad about the diagnosis -- rest in peace." The solution is to improve efficiency, cut spending, and raise taxes until you can sustain a civilized society.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

Of course you don't care, as a stereotypical American who only thinks with their stomach or testicle.
*-9/
*grabs crotch* OH BOYEEEEE

No Matt, I DO care as much as I can care, we just dont have a lot of options right now. How about you do something proactive, instead of playing with your dick, and push for more not for profit insurance companies so people like me and my sick friend, and the thousands upon thousands of other sick people, can purchase insurance from them instead.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

I'm OK with that. :2wave:

Not really that surprised. Liberals often speak about rights and "thinking independently" but when it comes down to it they are just as bad as conservatives in the thinking department.

My responses to you last night were polite, my posts today (after you continue the same tired arguments) will be less so: Maybe next time, you should try learning the actual contents of laws before you decide to fervently oppose them merely because FOX News shrieks about it for 24 hours a day. Try thinking for yourself for a change. And don't tell me that you independently came to this conclusion, because you clearly don't even have a good grasp of what's in the law.

I don't watch fox news. Indeed I rarely watch ANY news period since I consider much of it to be nothing more than political hackery. So my advice to you...stop assuming that you know people that you don't.

As far as your posts to me. I could care less how you frame them. I will continue to treat your posts just like I do any other post be they nice or rude. Just an FYI...I don't even look at the names of the people that I respond to unless I have to. So your posts will just end up blending in with everyone elses. Enjoy! :2wave:
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

For a second time Billy, try to understand the issue:


Q:Where did the $500 million taken from Medicare this year under President Obama’s health care law come from, and how does it affect Medicare for retiring baby boomers in 2012?

A:The Affordable Care Act had a number of provisions that achieved savings in the Medicare program. Those savings, which is what you are referring to, come from primarily two places: payments and cuts. There is a slowdown in the increase of payments to hospitals, skilled nursing facilities and other health-care providers. In other words, their reimbursements will still increase, but they won't increase as much as they would have under old law. There will also be savings from actual cuts in reimbursements to Medicare advantage plans—which had been traditionally overpaid by the federal government, getting paid more than 100% of what the traditional or fee for service. The private insurance companies were getting 110% to 113% of what it costs the traditional-run government programs to take care of somebody—that number is getting ratcheted down to 100% over the next three to five years.
The important thing to know is that these savings do two things: they will make the Medicare program more sustainable and are not expected to lead to any kinds of problems for baby boomers or anyone else on the Medicare programs. There are no cuts to benefits or increased premiums to people with Medicare because of these savings.


Read more: Medicare Changes Every Boomer Needs to Know About for 2012 | Fox Business


Hiya Gimmie!

Don't worry I've got a real good understanding of the ruling. Thanks.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

In all this despair, let us not forget that companies still need to attract the best employees they can.


With this added burden on business, they will become more selective.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.

I was not SOL. Know what I did? Pay the medical bill. Imagine that...someone taking responsibility for thier bills. Yeah it may take time and not be paid all at once. But at least it is paid off on my own dime and not anyone elses.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Except that if it isn't a tax, then its unconstitutional, as per the SCOTUS opinion. Which means, its a tax, that can be repealed/replaced using reconciliation,

But only the individual mandate. Per the CBO, repealing the entire law would increase the deficit.

just like reconciliation was valid to pass it in the first place.

Generally reconciliation is only allowed on measures that reduce the deficit. Most of the ACA (including the individual mandate) was passed through the standard process; only a small addendum was passed via reconciliation.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

I was not SOL. Know what I did? Pay the medical bill. Imagine that...someone taking responsibility for thier bills. Yeah it may take time and not be paid all at once. But at least it is paid off on my own dime and not anyone elses.

. . . . . . :applaud.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Every single country in the world with universal health care spends less per capita on health care than the United States. And although Obamacare doesn't get us to universal health care, it does bring us closer and puts into place the cost controls that have been successful in every other developed country.

And yet ironically alot of people that I have talked to about thier countries UHC they have all agreed that they got crap service. And you want this for us? Again, not surprised.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

But only the individual mandate. Per the CBO, repealing the entire law would increase the deficit.



Generally reconciliation is only allowed on measures that reduce the deficit. Most of the ACA (including the individual mandate) was passed through the standard process; only a small addendum was passed via reconciliation.

Use of the Budget Reconciliation Act in the Senate to pass Obamacare was illegitimate. The Budget Reconciliation process can only be used if a piece of legislation has no budgetary impact. Obamacare was scored by the CBO as having no impact because the cost was supposed to have no budget impact because it was kept under a trillion dollars. After passage the CBO looked at the costs again and determined that the cost will instead be about $1.7 trillion over the next ten years.

That means that Obamacare did have a budgetary impact and that the Budget Reconciliation process could not be used by the legislation's advocates in the Senate. They did it any way based on a lie to the CBO and the people.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And yet ironically alot of people that I have talked to about thier countries UHC they have all agreed that they got crap service. And you want this for us? Again, not surprised.

Among OECD Nations, U.S. Lags in Personal Health

U.S. Health Care Satisfaction Trails Others

So the answer is YES. We pay double what other countries pay and receive, on average, about the same level of care, and we are, on average, less satisfied with our health care system than other countries.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Use of the Budget Reconciliation Act in the Senate to pass Obamacare was illegitimate. The Budget Reconciliation process can only be used if a piece of legislation has no budgetary impact. Obamacare was scored by the CBO as having no impact because the cost was supposed to have no budget impact because it was kept under a trillion dollars. After passage the CBO looked at the costs again and determined that the cost will instead be about $1.7 trillion over the next ten years.

That means that Obamacare did have a budgetary impact and that the Budget Reconciliation process could not be used by the legislation's advocates in the Senate. They did it any way based on a lie to the CBO and the people.

By what logic does just under a trillion dollars have "no impact" on the budget? :lol:
 
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