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SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758, 1205]

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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

I'm OK with that. :2wave:



My responses to you last night were polite, my posts today (after you continue the same tired arguments) will be less so: Maybe next time, you should try learning the actual contents of laws before you decide to fervently oppose them merely because FOX News shrieks about it for 24 hours a day. Try thinking for yourself for a change. And don't tell me that you independently came to this conclusion, because you clearly don't even have a good grasp of what's in the law.

Are YOU saying that YOU know what is "in that law"? Much of it has not yet been written. You can not change the "cost" of something by simple gov't mandate, only who pays the cost can be changed.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Are YOU saying that YOU know what is "in that law"?

Yes. Yes I am saying that. And I have yet to meet an opponent of the ACA who actually understands what it does. But don't feel bad...even Justice Scalia didn't understand it. He literally used a FOX News talking point about the "Cornhusker Kickback" during oral arguments. This is remarkable for two reasons: 1) It had nothing to do with the legal arguments, and 2) It doesn't actually exist in the law because it was removed. :lol:

Unfortunately, most opponents of the ACA have misconceptions of what the bill does that are much more substantive than just a silly little pork-barrel project.

Much of it has not yet been written.

HHS regulations have not all been written yet. The ACA was an act of Congress with which I'm quite familiar, and which deals with the high-level regulations.

You can not change the "cost" of something by simple gov't mandate, only who pays the cost can be changed.

And so the costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can. Boom. What now?
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And so the costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can. Boom. What now?

And how is that different now than before PPACA was passed?...boom?
 
until Obama raises marginal FIT rates on the middle-class, he has kept his word.

Wrong. He has lied. He specifically said that it was not a tax. It was deemed constitutional under Congress' authority to tax. It is a tax...and a lie.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

And how is that different now than before PPACA was passed?...boom?

Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.
 
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Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.

If an insurance company can not use RISK to set rates, then why have insurance companies at all? Do you favor this for auto and homeowners insurance as well? If not WHY not?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

And now republicans are vowing to dismantle Obamacare, and repeal it. Let's stay on topic k?

Did Obama lie when he told ABC that it wasn't a tax?

One man's tax is another man's fee or penalty or service charge or whatever.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to whether money is being taken out of your pocket or not. Call it what you like.

Both parties do this. Dance around the definitions of tax.

Maybe we should take the big oil subsidies and corporate farm subsidies and all that money we piss away to foreign countries (foreign aid) and throw it into the insurance pool instead.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

makes me suspicious that he started with his result and worked backwards. Krauthammer has an interesting piece on this.

What Krauthammer says is basically how I see it, without the judgement of Roberts. I'm unsure about Roberts' politics on this.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125]

And now republicans are vowing to dismantle Obamacare, and repeal it. Let's stay on topic k?

Did Obama lie when he told ABC that it wasn't a tax?

According to Chief Justice Roberts, yes. I think he would also say that Romney lied about not raising taxes.

So both guys lied. Good for you, you figured out that they're politicians. Question is, which liar are you going to vote for, not who is a liar.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Yes. Yes I am saying that. And I have yet to meet an opponent of the ACA who actually understands what it does. But don't feel bad...even Justice Scalia didn't understand it. He literally used a FOX News talking point about the "Cornhusker Kickback" during oral arguments. This is remarkable for two reasons: 1) It had nothing to do with the legal arguments, and 2) It doesn't actually exist in the law because it was removed. :lol:

Unfortunately, most opponents of the ACA have misconceptions of what the bill does that are much more substantive than just a silly little pork-barrel project.



HHS regulations have not all been written yet. The ACA was an act of Congress with which I'm quite familiar, and which deals with the high-level regulations.



And so the costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can. Boom. What now?

Medical care is about 1/6th of the total ecomony, so it would follow that its cost, if spread evenly, would be about 1/6th of each person's expenses. The median annual income in the USA is $39,300 for an individual and $44,400 for a household. What many people SAY that they want, is for that cost to be spread "fairly". That would mean that $6550 for an individual or $7400 for a household would be spent on medical care each year. Put into monthly payment terms, that is about $546 for an individual or $617 for a household. The trick is to get that much paid for without actually seaming to require it. You can play with those numbers in many ways, but that is reality as I see it. No current GOV'T medical care program costs LESS than the average of $7,400 per person annual cost, why do you think ObamaCare will? Why was ObamaCare not made "live" when it was enacted, other than to hide the REAL COST?
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.

You did not answer my question. Your previous post you claimed 'costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can' but now you claim 'if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL'. Which is it?
 
What? The SCOTUS decision used the FACT that it was a TAX to make it "constitutional".

That's incorrect. They also interpret it as not a tax, for ant-injunction, what does that do to your claim of "FACT"?

They detail it all here why that's irrelevant:

Supreme Court Health Care Decision: When A Tax Is Not A Tax | WBUR & NPR

"At first glance, the idea of using two tests to answer the same question – 'Is this a tax?' – is counterintuitive. But Chief Justice Roberts' opinion explains the reason for the distinction: the Constitution imposes limits upon the Congress, and it would undermine those limits if Congress could circumvent them merely by altering the label on a piece of legislation. That is why for purposes of determining the scope of the taxing power, the label does not matter. However, the AIA is Congressional policy, and so the key question in that context is whether Congress intended for that policy to apply in a particular case. If Congress wants the AIA to apply, it knows to use language echoing that statute. Similarly, if Congress does not want the AIA to apply, it will use different language, and courts should respect that judgment."
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

If an insurance company can not use RISK to set rates, then why have insurance companies at all?

They can still use risk to set rates, it just has to be for the general population instead of specific people. So for example, they can take the risk of an average person needing treatment for childhood leukemia, and adding that risk into the premiums for everyone. What they can't do is discriminate against people who already have those conditions. If they could, then insurance would simply be unaffordable for them.

Do you favor this for auto and homeowners insurance as well?

No.

If not WHY not?

Several reasons:
1) Those things are far less important to the economy than health insurance. So who cares?

2) Health insurance is an absolute necessity, because you will be financially ruined if you need it and don't have it. No one's forcing you to own a home or a car.

3) If you are considered a high risk for home insurance or car insurance, it's to a large degree due to your own behavior. If you are considered a high risk for health insurance, it's much more difficult to make that connection, especially for age or preexisting conditions.

4) You are inherently able to afford home insurance or car insurance, if you could afford the home/car in the first place. If you aren't, then sell your damn home/car and buy a cheaper one. You can't do that with your health, and there are many people who ARE unable to afford health insurance.

5) If your house is damaged and you don't have insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If your car is damaged and you don't have collision insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If you need health care and you don't have health insurance, the taxpayers pick up the bill. This is also the same reason that most states require at least SOME car insurance...not for you or your car, but to pay the medical bills of other people if you cause an accident.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Before it was passed, if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL. By 2014 if you can't afford health insurance, you'll either get free Medicaid or a subsidy on the health insurance exchange, depending on your income. And insurers won't be able to discriminate against you based on preexisting conditions.

Medicaid is NOT free. Medicaid is a 50/50 split of state/federal TAX money, the states, unlike the federal gov't must actually TAX their residents to get the money, the federal gov't simply borrows it. For every ONE that will be compelled to BUY their own medical care insurance, there will be THREE that the TAXPAYERS will be compelled to support (either by subsidized exchanges or Medicaid). Adding 30 to 45 million NEW people at an average cost of $7,400 annually is not FREE, which is why ObamaCare was not made "live" until 2014.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

I'm not going to bother reading nearly 1500 posts, but someone tell me if I get how this thread has gone, correct:

Many of those on the right are whining and crying and making idiotic claims that this will destroy the US.
Many of those on the left are laughing and rejoicing and making idiotic claims that this will save the US.

How'd I do?
Half right ;)
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

No current GOV'T medical care program costs LESS than the average of $7,400 per person annual cost, why do you think ObamaCare will?

Every single country in the world with universal health care spends less per capita on health care than the United States. And although Obamacare doesn't get us to universal health care, it does bring us closer and puts into place the cost controls that have been successful in every other developed country.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

You did not answer my question. Your previous post you claimed 'costs will be transferred from those who can't afford health insurance to those who can' but now you claim 'if you couldn't afford health insurance you were SOL'. Which is it?

Those two statements mean the same thing. Prior to the ACA you had no recourse if you couldn't afford health insurance; now the costs will be transferred to the public, as they should be.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

Medicaid is NOT free. Medicaid is a 50/50 split of state/federal TAX money, the states, unlike the federal gov't must actually TAX their residents to get the money, the federal gov't simply borrows it. For every ONE that will be compelled to BUY their own medical care insurance, there will be THREE that the TAXPAYERS will be compelled to support (either by subsidized exchanges or Medicaid). Adding 30 to 45 million NEW people at an average cost of $7,400 annually is not FREE, which is why ObamaCare was not made "live" until 2014.

I mean it's free to the consumer.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

[...] You claim up to 400% subsidies, do you have any proof that comes from a reliable source and not a "kook" blogspot?
[...] I have a source from some kooky bloggers called the Department of HHS, Department of Treasury, and Congressional Research Service:

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/reports/premiums01282011a.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20101027...eReform/CRS/HealthInsurancePremiumCredits.pdf
http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/Documents/36BFactSheet.PDF

Sigh. Is it really too much to ask that people actually learn the contents of the law before they go running their mouths about how horrible it is? I mean, it's one thing to disagree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of "tax," or to think that some provision of the law is bad policy. It's another thing to not even know the contents of the law. Sadly, this seems to be par for the course with the Affordable Care Act's most vocal opponents.
They get their information from "kook blogspots" :mrgreen:
 
its a penalty, not a tax. taxes are not punitive.

Pigovian tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think maybe it can narrowly fit a "tax". I'm still withholding judgement on this whole decision, and I don't believe that Roberts' intent was to support the left; though practically he has in the short term. This law was not upheld at all based upon what liberals wanted, and I find that fascinating.
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

At the end of the day, which it is, it was a good day for Americans.... we still have the 37th best healthcare system in the world, but at least we took a step forward.

View attachment 67130111

A good day. Many before Obama worked to move the ball down the field. Perhaps Obama doesn't get the TD of national healthcare, we we'll settle for the FG.

Its now time to put this silliness behind us and move on to real issues; like the economy.

clap.gif
 
Re: SCOTUS LIVEBLOG - Obamacare Mandate Survives [W:125, 384, 635, 652, 758]

They can still use risk to set rates, it just has to be for the general population instead of specific people. So for example, they can take the risk of an average person needing treatment for childhood leukemia, and adding that risk into the premiums for everyone. What they can't do is discriminate against people who already have those conditions. If they could, then insurance would simply be unaffordable for them.



No.



Several reasons:
1) Those things are far less important to the economy than health insurance. So who cares?

2) Health insurance is an absolute necessity, because you will be financially ruined if you need it and don't have it. No one's forcing you to own a home or a car.

3) If you are considered a high risk for home insurance or car insurance, it's to a large degree due to your own behavior. If you are considered a high risk for health insurance, it's much more difficult to make that connection, especially for age or preexisting conditions.

4) You are inherently able to afford home insurance or car insurance, if you could afford the home/car in the first place. If you aren't, then sell your damn home/car and buy a cheaper one. You can't do that with your health, and there are many people who ARE unable to afford health insurance.

5) If your house is damaged and you don't have insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If your car is damaged and you don't have collision insurance, the only one who loses out is you. If you need health care and you don't have health insurance, the taxpayers pick up the bill. This is also the same reason that most states require at least SOME car insurance...not for you or your car, but to pay the medical bills of other people if you cause an accident.

That makes NO sense at all. If there is ONE premium rate (set by the gov't) and all must pay it (or get it subsidized by the taxpayers) then what does "private" medical insurance do except for take a cut of the action as a profit? Medicaid and Medicare now contain 100% of the RULES and paper pushers to verify/pay claims money to PRIVATE health care providers now; WHY does ObamaCare keep "private" insurance in the loop?

The ONLY reason is to pretend that "options" are available, when, in fact, they are not, since ObamaCare sets ALL the premium rates, defines the minimum/maximum benefits AND the allowable "overhead" (profit?) then there is nothing left for the insurance company to do EXCEPT act as paper pushers to verify/pay claims money to PRIVATE health care providers; EXACTLY what Medicaid/Medicare now do as well (but with no "profit").

Why not simply put EVERYBODY on Medicaid/Medicare and tax them directly at the ObamaCare defined "fair" rates? The answer, of course, is that would expose the SCAM and its TRUE COSTS immediately, rather than pretend it will "save money".
 
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