The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

teamosil said:

This argument is a bit disingenuous. What you're arguing in effect is that a guest worker's quality of life would only be a 2, which is too low, so we should just relegate them to living a quality of life of 1... It doesn't make much sense. The life of a guest worker is definitely a step up from the life of an illegal immigrant. Just because it isn't as good as the life of a citizen doesn't mean it isn't an improvement.

But, to call it slavery is ridiculous. They are free to choose whether they want to be in the guest worker program or not and they get paid.



This is the part I honestly just don't understand for a second about the right's position on this stuff. We were to revert a large portion of our workforce from modern, high return, jobs to migrant laborers that would be a massive step backwards economically. Why would anybody want that? That's crazy.

We want to move the economy FORWARD not BACKWARDS. We need to be looking for new jobs at the high end so everybody moves up a notch and we leave more jobs behind us. Then we fill in those jobs we left behind with guest workers.

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You sit there in SF, with its $10/hour MINIMUM wage and assert that FOREIGN labor is required to pick friut for LESS THAN a living wage? The shear hipocrisy in that is at the LIMIT. What RIGHT do you have, to sit high and mighty and dictate what work is BENEATH the dignity of a U.S. citizen, yet that NEEDS to be done in this country? You are HAPPY to watch OWS loons cry alligator tears about no work available and to PAY people not to work, and complain that U.S. wages are too LOW yet we need semi-slave imported labor to keep the fruit prices down? That is insane, pure and simple. This is not the economy that we are talking about, it is ONE very tiny underpaid part of it. If you want CHEAP FRUIT then import it, not simply the semi-slave labor to allow a millionaire (or ten) in CA to get richer.

ttwtt78640 said:

You sit there in SF, with its $10/hour MINIMUM wage and assert that FOREIGN labor is required to pick friut for LESS THAN a living wage? The shear hipocrisy in that is at the LIMIT. What RIGHT do you have, to sit high and mighty and dictate what work is BENEATH the dignity of a U.S. citizen, yet that NEEDS to be done in this country? You are HAPPY to watch OWS loons cry alligator tears about no work available and to PAY people not to work, and complain that U.S. wages are too LOW yet we need semi-slave imported labor to keep the fruit prices down? That is insane, pure and simple. This is not the economy that we are talking about, it is ONE very tiny underpaid part of it. If you want CHEAP FRUIT then import it, not simply the semi-slave labor to allow a millionaire (or ten) in CA to get richer.

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Again:

This argument is a bit disingenuous. What you're arguing in effect is that a guest worker's quality of life would only be a 2, which is too low, so we should just relegate them to living a quality of life of 1... It doesn't make much sense. The life of a guest worker is definitely a step up from the life of an illegal immigrant. Just because it isn't as good as the life of a citizen doesn't mean it isn't an improvement.

teamosil said:

No man. It's not "truth". It's just you spreading ignorant, racist, nonsense. Grow up.

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And you are a tremendously bigotted person, dictating that REAL Americans are above doing farm work, or perhaps ANY other manual labor, and that REAL Americans should have low paid foreign laborers to serve them, as they do the "imporant" and higher paid "work". Get real! BTW, just what is YOUR job?

teamosil said:

Again:

This argument is a bit disingenuous. What you're arguing in effect is that a guest worker's quality of life would only be a 2, which is too low, so we should just relegate them to living a quality of life of 1... It doesn't make much sense. The life of a guest worker is definitely a step up from the life of an illegal immigrant. Just because it isn't as good as the life of a citizen doesn't mean it isn't an improvement.

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No, what I am saying is FAR from that. I am saying if that job, picking fruit, good honest hard work, is offered at such a LOW wage IN THE USA that NOBODY in the U.S. will do it, then the WAGES OFFERED ARE SIMPLY TOO LOW. That is it, no more and no less. Welders and riggers on an off-shore oil platform do EXACTLY what they do on land, but they get MUCH MORE PAY because of the working conditions and short duration of the job. They do NOT use imported labor, they pay what is REQUIRED to get the U.S. labor to do the job. YES, it costs money, and YES it makes the product more expensive, but they pay FAIR MARKET wages, to attract the honest, hard working, U.S. workers that they need, and do not ask for semi-slave labor permits to get the work done CHEAPER, just to increase their profit.

ttwtt78640 said:

And you are a tremendously bigotted person, dictating the REAL Americans are above doing farm work, or perhaps ANY manual labor, and that REAL Americans should have low paid foreign laborers to serve them, as they do the "imporant" and higher paid "work". Get real!

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WTF are you talking about? Bigoted? You think it is bigotry to want the country to move forward economically? You're just being insane. Slow down, think things through, and come back with a position. Of course we want to continually move as many Americans as we can into better and better jobs... Do you really disagree with that or are you just angry? And, of course, we want to provide other people the opportunity to take the jobs we leave behind... Why wouldn't we? I get how mad you are, but I honestly don't get why.

ttwtt78640 said:

BTW, just what is YOUR job?

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I was in software for a long time, then I went back to school to get a law degree. I have one year of law school left. This summer I'm working at a law firm. Why?

ttwtt78640 said:

No, what I am saying is FAR from that. I am saying if that job, picking fruit, good honest hard work, is offered at such a LOW wage IN THE USA that NOBODY in the U.S. will do it, then the WAGES OFFERED ARE SIMPLY TOO LOW.

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What? So you're saying that when our population progresses past a job, we just shouldn't do it any more? So we should just start letting fields go unfarmed and stop having people clean houses and whatnot? Why? What would possibly be gained from that? It's just waste. If there is benefit to be had for us from having that work done, and people who want to do the work because it would improve their situation too, why not do it?

James Cessna said:

You are correct, ttwtt.

The liberals complain about "slave wages" and deplorable working conditions" in China but then they turn around and allow these same conditions to flourish in this country.

Again, let's crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants when we have a guest worker program that is sufficient to replace them. Meanwhile, let’s crack down on the unscrupulous employers who hire illegal immigrants to do the work of non-farm jobs such as gardeners, landscapers, short order cooks and day laborers.

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I agree PARTLY. But I see NO NEED to import unskilled or semi-skilled FORIEGN labor SIMPLY to artificially depress wages and increase profits IN THE USA. No job, doing honest, hard work is BENEATH an American citizen, that sends a VERY BAD message to our children. Not everyone is going to be capable of "better" work. We now pay 15% of our population to do NOTHING; look at the OWS loons DEMANDING high wages for doing less difficult jobs, simply because they have a piece of peper saying that they are "educated". Nobody deserves a hand out, REGARDLESS of their "education", if work needs to be done then a wage sufficient to attract U.S. workers needs to be paid, no less and no more. The insane idea of the left is that a college degree, even in underwater basket weaving, somehow entitles one to be paid WAY more than their work is REALLY worth, yet someone, WITHOUT that degree, must accept whatever scraps are offered as "fair" compensation for their labor, if not, they will get gov't "permission" to use TEMPORARY foreigners to do it.

teamosil said:

What? So you're saying that when our population progresses past a job, we just shouldn't do it any more? So we should just start letting fields go unfarmed and stop having people clean houses and whatnot? Why? What would possibly be gained from that? It's just waste. If there is benefit to be had for us from having that work done, and people who want to do the work because it would improve their situation too, why not do it?

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We, the TAXPAYERS, now pay 15% of our population to DO NOTHING AT ALL. There are THOUSANDS of people NOW getting PAID not to work, yet you assert, to keep the price of fruit down, we need foreign TEMPORARY labor. You don't REALLY even mean temporary, you want a permanent underclass of "strong young foriegn labor" to serve us, doing jobs "beneath" the dignity of ALL U.S. citizens. Get real!

ttwtt78640 said:

We, the TAXPAYERS, now pay 15% of our population to DO NOTHING AT ALL. There are THOUSANDS of people NOW getting PAID not to work, yet you assert, to keep the price of fruit down, we need foreign TEMPORARY labor. You don't REALLY even mean temporary, you want a permanent underclass of "strong young foriegn labor" to serve us, doing jobs "beneath" the dignity of ALL U.S. citizens. Get real!

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Pay 15% of our population to do nothing at all? Uh, you'll need to explain that lol... Source please...

Only 0.5% of the population gets actual welfare checks- TANF. And they are almost exclusively mothers who have a newborn and can't afford child care... You want to send them out to the fields or what?

ttwtt78640 said:

I agree PARTLY. But I see NO NEED to import unskilled or semi-skilled FORIEGN labor SIMPLY to artificially depress wages and increase profits IN THE USA. No job, doing honest, hard work is BENEATH an American citizen, that sends a VERY BAD message to our children. Not everyone is going to be capable of "better" work. We now pay 15% of our population to do NOTHING; look at the OWS loons DEMANDING high wages for doing less difficult jobs, simply because they have a piece of peper saying that they are "educated". Nobody deserves a hand out, REGARDLESS of their "education", if work needs to be done then a wage sufficient to attract U.S. workers needs to be paid, no less and no more. The insane idea of the left is that a college degree, even in underwater basket weaving, somehow entitles one to be paid WAY more than their work is REALLY worth, yet someone, WITHOUT that degree, must accept whatever scraps are offered as "fair" compensation for their labor, if not, they will get gov't "permission" to use TEMPORARY foreigners to do it.

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The problem is many people are graduating from college today with “liberal arts” degrees that no employer has a need for or can use. And then these people complain they cannot find a decent job with a starting salary of $100,000 a year!

There are plenty of good paying jobs available in science and technology today but few people graduate with these degrees because the coursework requires a lot of math and the courses are very difficult for most people to understand and master.

teamosil said:

WTF are you talking about? Bigoted? You think it is bigotry to want the country to move forward economically? You're just being insane. Slow down, think things through, and come back with a position. Of course we want to continually move as many Americans as we can into better and better jobs... Do you really disagree with that or are you just angry? And, of course, we want to provide other people the opportunity to take the jobs we leave behind... Why wouldn't we? I get how mad you are, but I honestly don't get why.



I was in software for a long time, then I went back to school to get a law degree. I have one year of law school left. This summer I'm working at a law firm. Why?

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Dude, you have bumped your head or something. Not ALL U.S. folks are college educated (or even have finished highschool) their are MANY, MANY U.S. folks, that are a tick or two below rocket scientists, that NEED productive jobs to do. YOU may be a lawyer, and your kids may not WANT to pick fruit, but THINK about what you are REALLY saying; if you lack the skill to "move up" you will be paid as a guest worker or paid not to work at all. What do you think the 11 MILLION illegals now in the U.S. are doing to feed, clothe and house themselves? Why do we need THEM and yet NEED guest workers too? Hmm...

ttwtt78640 said:

We, the TAXPAYERS, now pay 15% of our population to DO NOTHING AT ALL. There are THOUSANDS of people NOW getting PAID not to work, yet you assert, to keep the price of fruit down, we need foreign TEMPORARY labor. You don't REALLY even mean temporary, you want a permanent underclass of "strong young foriegn labor" to serve us, doing jobs "beneath" the dignity of ALL U.S. citizens. Get real!

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You are correct, ttwtt.

ttwtt78640 said:

Dude, you have bumped your head or something. Not ALL U.S. folks are college educated (or even have finished highschool) their are MANY, MANY U.S. folks, that are a tick or two below rocket scientists, that NEED productive jobs to do. YOU may be a lawyer, and your kids may not WANT to pick fruit, but THINK about what you are REALLY saying; if you lack the skill to "move up" you will be paid as a guest worker or paid not to work at all. What do you think the 11 MILLION illegals now in the U.S. are doing to feed, clothe and house themselves? Why do we need THEM and yet NEED guest workers too? Hmm...

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Somebody working at McDonalds generates way more value both for themselves and the economy than a migrant laborer. Are you saying that you think there are a large number of citizens who aren't qualified to work at a McDonalds? I'm certainly not proposing that we use a guest worker program to fill that tier of jobs. Not yet anyways. Some day, hopefully, the vast majority of our population will progress beyond service jobs and we'll have somebody fill those in too. But not yet.

ttwtt78640 said:

And you are a tremendously bigotted person, dictating that REAL Americans are above doing farm work, or perhaps ANY other manual labor, and that REAL Americans should have low paid foreign laborers to serve them, as they do the "imporant" and higher paid "work". Get real! BTW, just what is YOUR job?

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You are correct, ttwtt.

It is interesting how liberals like teamosil often hide the truth about illegal immigrants and how these people have such little respect for our immigration laws.

If the illegal immigrants supported and voted for the candidates of the Republican party, the liberals would throw them out of our country in a heart-beat, regardless of their need for jobs and income and their economic status!

James Cessna said:

The problem is many people are graduating from college today with “liberal arts” degrees that no employer has a need for or can use. And then these people complain they cannot find a decent job with a starting salary of $100,000 a year!

There are plenty of good paying jobs available in science and technology today but few people graduate with these degrees because the coursework requires a lot of math and the courses are very difficult for most people to understand and master.

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I agree, so they WASTED their time and SOMEONE ELSE'S money to get a worthless piece of paper. So now it is time to get real and work; good, honest, hard work and produce some goods or provide some services to put a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs and food in their bellies. It is NOT time to loaf, whine and join OWS rllies asking for "help". This entire country (or at least one big part of it) has lost sight of reality. The USA is not suddenly a dream land that requires no more than WANTING a cushy desk job, to "earn" one. Holes still need digging, fences still need erecting, food still needs to be cooked and served, cars still break down, friut needs to be picked and all sorts of jobs STILL need doing, some are just plain, old fashioned, hard work. Life in the USA did NOT change because someone got a pice of paper SAYING that they are now worth WAY too much to "waste" themselves by doing some REAL work.

ttwtt78640 said:

I agree, so they WASTED their time and SOMEONE ELSE'S money to get a wrthless piece of paper. So now itis time to get real and work; good, honest, hard work and procude some good or provide some service to put a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs and food in their bellies. It is NOT time to loaf, whine and join OWS rllies asking for "help". This entire country (or at least one big part of it) has lost sight of reality. The USA is not suddenly a dream land that requires no more than WANTING a cushy desk job, to "earn" one. Holes still need digging, fences still need erecting, food still needs to be cooked and served, cars still break down, friut needs to be picked and all sorts of jobs STILL need doing, some are just plain, old fashioned, hard work. Life in the USA did NOT change because someone got a pice of paper SAYING that they are no worth too much to waste doing REAL work.

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You are correct, ttwtt.

What is funny is the students who were involved in the OWS movement are the very last people whom any employer would want to hire. These people have an "entitlement" attitude and most of them have a bad atttude toward our "free enterprise" system. They are generally an unruly bunch who have no manners and no self-discipline.

If you were an employer and you were looking for good, dependable employees, would you give this person a job?

teamosil said:

Somebody working at McDonalds generates way more value both for themselves and the economy than a migrant laborer. Are you saying that you think there are a large number of citizens who aren't qualified to work at a McDonalds? I'm certainly not proposing that we use a guest worker program to fill that tier of jobs. Not yet anyways. Some day, hopefully, the vast majority of our population will progress beyond service jobs and we'll have somebody fill those in too. But not yet.

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You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.

My first job was at a sod farm, making $1.75/hour and YES it was hard work, in the hot sun, but it was work and a paycheck (and McJobs paid only $1/hour then). Many can, and do, make enough doing this work to survive, not any high style, middle class life, but certainly enough to live on. Nobody expects (I hope) to stay at either a McJob or as a fruit picker for their entire life, but even if they did, they could move up to at least a crew chief or asst. manager, to help run things and train the newer workers; at that level, they would be at least lower middle class, as long as they did not have to live in a very high cost area.

The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives. Welcome to the rest of America, where many of us, believe it or not, are quite happy doing regular, plain, old fashioned, hard work.

James Cessna said:

The problem is many people are graduating from college today with “liberal arts” degrees that no employer has a need for or can use. And then these people complain they cannot find a decent job with a starting salary of $100,000 a year!

There are plenty of good paying jobs available in science and technology today but few people graduate with these degrees because the coursework requires a lot of math and the courses are very difficult for most people to understand and master.

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Actually, by mid career, people who got philosophy degrees are making a median income of $81k, where people with accounting degrees are making $77k and people with biology degrees are making $64k. For comparison, somebody with only a high school degree makes a median of $30k.

WSJ.com
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/people/2010/P16_2010.xls

James Cessna said:

If the illegal immigrants supported and voted for the candidates of the Republican party, the liberals would throw them out of our country in a heart-beat, regardless of their need for jobs and income and their economic status!

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This whole conspiracy theory is ridiculous. The Democrats haven't changed their position on immigration. We still have the same position Republicans did just 4 years ago. And, four years ago, the Republicans were getting a solid 1/3 of the Hispanic vote. In fact, four years ago, most analysts were talking about how Hispanics were the future of the Republican party- they tend to be socially conservative. But, instead of trying to appeal to Hispanics, the GOP decided to start attacking them for no reason. And not just about immigration. English as a national language, banning cultural studies courses, racist attacks on Sotomayor... That's why they're in the Democrats' column- because you kicked them out of your party.

ttwtt78640 said:

You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.

My first job was at a sod farm, making $1.75/hour and YES it was hard work, in the hot sun, but it was work and a paycheck (and McJobs paid only $1/hour then). Many can, and do, make enough doing this work to survive, not any high style, middle class life, but certainly enough to live on. Nobody expects (I hope) to stay at either a McJob or as a fruit picker for their entire life, but even if they did, they could move up to at least a crew chief or asst. manager, to help run things and train the newer workers; at that level, they would be at least lower middle class, as long as they did not have to live in a very high cost area.

The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives. Welcome to the rest of America, where many of us, believe it or not, are quite happy doing regular, plain, old fashioned, hard work.

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What is funny is that many of these college graduates today who have expensive "liberal arts" degrees are unable to find a prestigious job making $65.00 an hour, so instead, they move back in with their parents.

Someday, their parents are going to kick them out of the comfortable nest and they are going to have to apply for a job at McDonalds or Chick-fil-A and start out in the job market like the rest of us who are older and less “entitled” had to do!

ttwtt78640 said:

You are one hard headed dude. What I am saying is that picking fruit is HARDER than a McJob, a whole LOT harder. It is not easy indoor work, out of the elements, in a pristine, air conditioned store, it is back breaking, bending, stooping HARD ASS work, outside in the blazing hot sun, out among the bugs; THAT SHOULD pay at least 3x what that McJob pays PLUS provide free temporary housing since commuting to those jobs is not practical. These jobs would be IDEAL starting SEASONAL jobs for sinlgle HS and college kids to get some money together and good work experience.

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Jobs don't pay based on how hard they are, they pay based on how much profit they generate. A job at McDonalds generates way more money than a job as a migrant laborer. Hence, we would rather our people work in McDonalds than as migrant laborers.

ttwtt78640 said:

The ENTIRE U.S. population is NOT college educated adults, and it NEVER will be; get that through your head, there will always be new workers an many of them will work in farm, retail, service, trade and production jobs for their entire lives.

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History just doesn't stand still like that. It continually progresses. If a large chunk of our population is still doing the same sorts of jobs that we do today in 100 years, we will be a third world country. Whether we like it or not, that's reality. 100 years ago over 60% of our population worked in agriculture. Today it is less than 2%. And you know what countries still have over 60% of their population working in agriculture? Third world countries.

That's not something I am trying to force on anybody, that's just the reality of the world. It has always happened like that and it always will happen like that. New careers and industries and technologies emerge and staying on top means moving into those new areas as fast as you can and always being on the lookout to the next one.

100 years ago, a relatively small percentage of the population got high school degrees. We didn't need them to farm. Then, maybe 40 years ago we crossed the line where the typical person pretty much needed a high school degree to make a decent living. Of course, there are always exceptions, but that became the norm. Today we're crossing over the line where the typical person needs to get a college degree. Somebody who is 18 now is still going to need to be employable in 2052. There is no way that very many people who don't even have a college degree will be able to find work in 2052. In fact, in 2052 18 year olds will need to be getting more advanced degrees to be viable. That's just how it goes. The world gets more and more complex. Simpler jobs get automated and new, higher reward, jobs pop up that require more education. We need to keep swimming or we sink.

AdamT said:

I believe the employers in Arizona and Alabama would disagree with your assessment. They have not been able to find legal workers to fill the vacated jobs. The United Farm Workers are running a "Take Our Jobs" campaign in California, offering fruit picking jobs to any American who wants them. They got about two serious candidates. TAKEOURJOBS.ORG

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For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.

teamosil said:

This whole conspiracy theory is ridiculous. The Democrats haven't changed their position on immigration. We still have the same position Republicans did just 4 years ago. And, four years ago, the Republicans were getting a solid 1/3 of the Hispanic vote. In fact, four years ago, most analysts were talking about how Hispanics were the future of the Republican party- they tend to be socially conservative. But, instead of trying to appeal to Hispanics, the GOP decided to start attacking them for no reason. And not just about immigration. English as a national language, banning cultural studies courses, racist attacks on Sotomayor... That's why they're in the Democrats' column- because you kicked them out of your party.

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You assume too much.

I am not a Republican; I am an independent. I support gay marriage and a woman's right to choose.

I object to illegal immigrants crossing into our country and rudely breaking in line ahead of other immigrants who have legally applied for citizenship and have followed the rules.

I object to illegal immigrants who cross into our country, work here illegally, send their children to our public schools, receive free medical care, enjoy our public libraries and parks and have the benefit of our police and fire protection and don’t pay their fair share of taxes like the rest of us must do.

Misterveritis said:

For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.

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The thing is, your state is not doing fine. It's an economic disaster. Your median household income is almost $10k below the national average and almost $20k behind states like California, New York, Washington state or New Jersey. $10k is the difference between the US and Italy. $20k is approaching the difference between the US and Mexico.

You schools consistently rank in the bottom 5 states. 15% of the population of your state is classified as illiterate.

I'm not just trying to rag on you for the sake of being mean. More than anything else in this country, we need red states to stop settling for dropping out of school and doing low end jobs. We need you to catch up. The well being of our entire country depends on it. If the red states caught up with the blue states, it would be the biggest economic boom the country has ever seen. If they continue falling behind, it will continue to drag the rest of the country down with it. People in red states need to stay in school. It's that simple.

Misterveritis said:

For my state this is quite simply a lie. We are doing fine without the New Slave Labor. Unemployment among American citizens in the county which saw the greatest numbers of illegal aliens leave has dropped significantly.

But the usual suspects continue to try to overturn the law. It is not going to happen.

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Here is an interesting analsis, Misterveritis.

You may have seen it before. It is quite an eye opener.

EMILIO LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL

You have two families: "Emilio Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and live in southern California.

Emilio Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.

Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Ready? … Now pay very close attention...

Emilio Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1,000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Emilio Legal now has $31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

Emilio Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Emilio Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or state welfare. Emilio Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and state welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Emilio Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Emilio Legal now has $9,631.00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Emilio Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for auto insurance. Emilio Legal now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no expensive auto insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

Emilio Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, clothes and shoes for his family, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, clothes and shoes for his family and what he faithfully sends out of the country to his relatives in Mexico every month.

Emilio Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Emilio Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Emilio Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Emilio Legal's children go directly home after school.

Emilio Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services and emergency room services and Public Park and library services but Emilio has paid for them and Jose did not pay.