• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

Not exactly. My stance is that the unskilled and lazy US workers think they deserve more money than they are worth. I would have hired them if they didn't price themselves out of the market. Why would I pay $30 an hour for an American who wasn't as skilled or hardworking as the skilled, hardworking immigrant who would work for $25 an hour? I'd hire that American for $10-$15 an hour because they weren't worth more than that. They wouldn't take the job for that amount, though.

(And that's the actual rates I paid per hour for carpenters, not $10 an hour. I'd pay my unskilled laborers the $10-$15 an hour rate).
I seriously doubt that in this market, with the construction field devastated by layoffs, that you cannot find high skilled US construction workers willing to take $25/hr jobs. I know for a fact that there are hundreds of thousands in AZ and CA willing and waiting.
 
Not exactly. My stance is that the unskilled and lazy US workers think they deserve more money than they are worth. I would have hired them if they didn't price themselves out of the market. Why would I pay $30 an hour for an American who wasn't as skilled or hardworking as the skilled, hardworking immigrant who would work for $25 an hour? I'd hire that American for $10-$15 an hour because they weren't worth more than that. They wouldn't take the job for that amount, though.

(And that's the actual rates I paid per hour for carpenters, not $10 an hour. I'd pay my unskilled laborers the $10-$15 an hour rate).

Reality 101:

Career Opportunities
 
OK here you go, saved you those precious keystrokes: Wage Determinations Online

Okay, so a quick comparison between Nebraska (not many Mexicans, I assume) and Arizona shows that that the rates in AZ are more than double the rates in Nebraska. Hmmmm....

Maybe cost of living...

How about Maine? Nah, Arizona still pays better than 50% more. Hmmm....
 
Last edited:
OK, let me TRY to explain to you the difference between hard working immigrants and lazy-ass Americans.

Immigrants work hard. They do this for less money.

Americans are lazy. They expect more money for this.

I don't give a flying **** about the standards of living (and by the way, my employees weren't Mexican. Hate to burst your pathetic strawman bubble, they were Irish immigrants. I do find it rather telling that you are ignorant enough to assume immigrant means Mexican, though. The Irish have a comparable standard of living, but a much better work ethic)

I am in SOUTH TEXAS we have very few Irish immigrants but PLENTY of illegal immigrants, MANY of them, believe it or not, are from Mexico and other points south. Job offer link: Career Opportunities
 
Last edited:
Okay, so a quick comparison between Nebraska (not many Mexicans, I assume) and Arizona shows that that the rates in AZ are more than double the rates in Nebraska. Hmmmm....

Maybe cost of living...

How about Maine? Nah, Arizona still pays better than 50% more. Hmmm....

Michigan? Not so many immigrants ... lots of Unions ... AZ still pays more. Hmmm....
 
Actually there's very little to cultural or linguistic differences between any of the 50 states. The big cultural/linguistic/political divide is actually between the inner city (of every city in America), and everyone else.

Simply untrue, unless this is your way of singling out 'inner city residents' (gee, I wonder who you could be referring to?) from all other americans. I don't live in an inner city - I don't live in any city - and I have nothing in common politically with any conservative bible belt resident. My state has a miniscule African American population and votes overwhelmingly Democratic.
 
...but that is the wage you are offering.

How do you know what I was offering? Most of the immigrants who worked for me were well-established here, as well. Some having lived here for 20+ years.

Again, the established high skilled US worker is someone you do not want to higher.

Bull****. The established, high skilled US worker still wasn't worth what they wanted because the established, high skilled Immigrant worker was willing to work for less than even the unskilled US worker would work for.

The unskilled US worker wanted the same as the skilled Immigrant worker, and the skilled US worker wanted 30% more than the skilled immigrant worker.

or "non-lazy" US workers.

simply being a US worker doesn't warrant the pay they wanted.

Your whole argument hinges on this "lazy" American.

Reality hinges on that.

That is always the characterization used by those who won't pay a real wage.

That line of idiocy falls apart when you learn what I paid my workers.
 
I am in SOUTH TEXAS we have very few Irish immigrants but PLENTY of illegal immigrants, MANY of them, believe it or not, are from Mexico and other points south. Job offer link: Career Opportunities

Well bully for you. You are not only ignorant in your assumption that immigrant = Mexican, you're a Texan to boot.

I'm from Chicago, and we have just as many immigrants as "y'all" do, both legal and illegal, from points all over the globe. Including Mexico and points south.
 
How do you know what I was offering? Most of the immigrants who worked for me were well-established here, as well. Some having lived here for 20+ years. Bull****. The established, high skilled US worker still wasn't worth what they wanted because the established, high skilled Immigrant worker was willing to work for less than even the unskilled US worker would work for. The unskilled US worker wanted the same as the skilled Immigrant worker, and the skilled US worker wanted 30% more than the skilled immigrant worker. simply being a US worker doesn't warrant the pay they wanted. Reality hinges on that. That line of idiocy falls apart when you learn what I paid my workers.
Again, you claim you can't find high skilled US workers willing to accept $25/hr rates. I say that is totally false. My BiL was a foreman for residential slab pours, he is now sweeping the floors at an Amazon distribution center for much less than $25/hr.

Your story doesn't hold up in this market.
 
Again, you claim you can't find high skilled US workers willing to accept $25/hr rates. I say that is totally false. My BiL was a foreman for residential slab pours, he is now sweeping the floors at an Amazon distribution center for much less than $25/hr.

Your story doesn't hold up in this market.

He mentioned above that he doesn't own the company any more.
 
Reality 101: I'm in Chicago.
Ah...you are in CHICAGO, a pretty high CoL area, of course you can't find high skilled labor at below rate levels.....except for those living 10 to a room.
 
Well bully for you. You are not only ignorant in your assumption that immigrant = Mexican, you're a Texan to boot.

I'm from Chicago, and we have just as many immigrants as "y'all" do, both legal and illegal, from points all over the globe. Including Mexico and points south.

I am using what I know to be true HERE where I live and try to work. As you can see from the following link carpenters in Texas are hurting right now, paid about $20K/year less than in IL: Carpenters
 
Last edited:
He mentioned above that he doesn't own the company any more.
And now he mentions the area he was working in....a VERY high cost region where he wanted to pay below market rates.
 
Again, you claim you can't find high skilled US workers willing to accept $25/hr rates.

I said I couldn't. Past tense. When the construction industry died (along with familial issues), I closed down the company. In 2005, you couldn't find an American construction worker willing to work for $25 an hour. Today you can, because there are no jobs and people have become more humble. The problem is that equally skilled immigrants will do the same work for $10.

Your story doesn't hold up in this market.

It's not my fault you ignored my use of the past tense. :shrug:
 
And now he mentions the area he was working in....a VERY high cost region where he wanted to pay below market rates.

My rates were not below market. The key to knowing what oyu are talking about is actually knowing what you are talking about.
 
How do you know what I was offering? Most of the immigrants who worked for me were well-established here, as well. Some having lived here for 20+ years.



Bull****. The established, high skilled US worker still wasn't worth what they wanted because the established, high skilled Immigrant worker was willing to work for less than even the unskilled US worker would work for.

The unskilled US worker wanted the same as the skilled Immigrant worker, and the skilled US worker wanted 30% more than the skilled immigrant worker.



simply being a US worker doesn't warrant the pay they wanted.



Reality hinges on that.



That line of idiocy falls apart when you learn what I paid my workers.

My only real problem with your line of reasoning is that the unkilled US worker who is not getting paid by you is now getting paid by all of us while the unskilled (illegal) immigrant worker (if not being paid by you) would also not be getting paid by all of us.
 
Ah...you are in CHICAGO, a pretty high CoL area, of course you can't find high skilled labor at below rate levels.....except for those living 10 to a room.

I guess I'll call up all of my former employees and tell them they aren;'t allowed to own their homes because some guy on the internet who didn't know **** said they had to live 10 to a room.
 
I am using what I know to be true HERE where I live and try to work. As you can see from the following link carpenters in Texas are hurting right now, paid about $20K/year less than in IL: Carpenters

Carpenters are ****ed here in Illinois right now, too. There's no work. At all. Not even for the immigrants who are willing to work for less.

This market is a supply and demand issue. There's lots of demand for jobs, and little demand for workers. If you can't make it in your field on what the market says is the price for labor, you have to pick a different field. That's what I did.
 
I said I couldn't. Past tense. When the construction industry died (along with familial issues), I closed down the company. In 2005, you couldn't find an American construction worker willing to work for $25 an hour. Today you can, because there are no jobs and people have become more humble. The problem is that equally skilled immigrants will do the same work for $10.



It's not my fault you ignored my use of the past tense. :shrug:
Of course you couldn't find skilled US workers at below market level rates in CHICAGO....during the CONSTRUCTION BOOM.....when employment levels were HIGH.

This is a totally false argument, they weren't "lazy", they were able to secure employment at rates higher than you willing to pay.
 
OK, I was WRONG about AZ, assuming (wrongly) that it was much like TX see link: Carpenters

Like I said above, that's not an immigration problem so much as it's a market problem. I got the hell out of construction altogether because there were no jobs. It's not going to get back to pre-boom and boom levels anytime soon. Too many out-of-work employees, too few jobs. If your cost of living is too high to survive at that income, you really need to think of a new career. It sucks, but it's what has to be done.
 
I guess I'll call up all of my former employees and tell them they aren;'t allowed to own their homes because some guy on the internet who didn't know **** said they had to live 10 to a room.
They sure as hell can't afford a house in Chicago @ less than $50K for that household during the boom.
 
Of course you couldn't find skilled US workers at below market level rates in CHICAGO....during the CONSTRUCTION BOOM.....when employment levels were HIGH.

Again, you keep saying "below market value" when that is just some idiocy you invented.
 
Back
Top Bottom