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The AZ Immigration Law Has Been Decided

Construction trade workers, manufacturing/production workers, landscape/maintance workers, food service workers and retail sales positions ARE jobs. You must remember that over HALF of the U.S. workforce is NOT college educated. Your moronic stereotype of barely speaking english does NOT apply to the vast majority of the 15 million+ of the illegals and certainly not to their 15 million "anchor babies" that were born to them here and edcuated for FREE by taxes paid by the very workers that they now displace. This is what YOU and many similar high and mighty lefties fail to see. These "menial" jobs that you blow off as "beneath you" or not good enough for U.S. citizens are the very jobs that HALF of the U.S. citizens DO FOR A LIVING. Look at the teen unemployment rate, look at the minority unemployment rate and then THINK about how keeping 30 million+ that should NOT BE HERE affects those people; just because YOU do not compete DIRECTLY with these folks, and wish them well, does NOT change reality for many, many AVERAGE U.S. citzens that need jobs NOW. Get real!

The number of undocumented is now around 11 million -- not 15 million. There aren't 15 million people of Mexican descent -- legal and illegal combined -- in the U.S. Number Of U.S. Undocumented Immigrants From Mexico Drops

And the number of "anchor babies" is about four million -- not 15 million.

So please stop exaggerating. You've overstated the problem by 100%.

And of course just getting mad about it doesn't solve the problem. Nor does your getting defensive about being unable to compete with semi-literate immigrants who came here without a dime in their pocket.
 
Construction trade workers, manufacturing/production workers, landscape/maintance workers, food service workers and retail sales positions ARE jobs.

And non-immigrants done priced themselves out of the market for most of those jobs.
 
The number of undocumented is now around 11 million -- not 15 million. There aren't 15 million people of Mexican descent -- legal and illegal combined -- in the U.S. Number Of U.S. Undocumented Immigrants From Mexico Drops

And the number of "anchor babies" is about four million -- not 15 million.

So please stop exaggerating. You've overstated the problem by 100%.

And of course just getting mad about it doesn't solve the problem. Nor does your getting defensive about being unable to compete with semi-literate immigrants who came here without a dime in their pocket.

A few problems exist with your clever substitution of "Mexican" for TOTAL U.S. illegal immigrants. Even YOUR supplied souce states that "of Mexican descent" is about 60% of total U.S. illegal immigration. Another glaring error is your assertion of the birthrate for illegals, as being below HALF that needed for simple replacement. I did point out that many of these births result in citizen "anchor babies", but that does NOT make these people "unrelated" to the illegal immigration OF THEIR PARENTS. Perhaps a quick look at the minority/hispanic birthrates in the U.S. will support the FACT that your "assumption" of reproduction rates below the minimum replacement rate is total BS.

I NEVER claimed that U.S. workers are "unable to compete", simply that they are now FORCED to do so, often at the cost of accepting a stagnent or decreasing pay/benefit package for those AVERAGE jobs, since illegal labor can not complain about such things; as long as the SAME work in the U.S. pays 5x to 10x what it does in "the homeland" illegal aliens will still come here for it.

I agree that the lack of job availability has now slowed the influx TEMPORARILY, but as soon as things pick up, they will resume their illegal migration. These folks "without a dime in their pockets" pay handsomely for help getting into and established (with fake ID) in this country, and many have friends and relatives here to assist them as well.
 
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And non-immigrants done priced themselves out of the market for most of those jobs.
You mean the "market" is not paying a wage high enough to attract legal workers.

There is a reason why the Chamber of Commerce doesn't like immigration crackdowns.
 
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And non-immigrants done priced themselves out of the market for most of those jobs.

BS. They simply can not, or will not accept stagnent or declining wage/benefit packages offered that STILL beat what the illegals can earn in their homeland by 5x tp 10x. Jobs that paid $10/hour 15 years ago STILL pay $10/hour, even though the cost of living (as a normal citizen) and the U.S. minimum wage has risen. Many illegals are quite willing to live 10 to a three bedroom house and send much of their earnings "home" to help support other relatives that they left behind. Look in ANY convenince store in south Texas and you will see countless anonymous "financial aids" to send money back to Mexico.
 
A few problems exist with your clever substitution of "Mexican" for TOTAL U.S. illegal immigrants. Even YOUR supplied souce states that "of Mexican descent" is about 60% of total U.S. illegal immigration. Another glaring error is your assertion of the birthrate for illegals, as being below HALF that needed for simple replacement. I did point out that many of these births result in citizen "anchor babies", but that does NOT make these people "unrelated" to the illegal immigration OF THEIR PARENTS. Perhaps a quick look at the minority/hispanic birthrates in the U.S. will support the FACT that your "assumption" of reproduction rates below the minimum replacement rate is total BS.

I NEVER claimed that U.S. workers are "unable to compete", simply that they are now FORCED to do so, often at the cost of accepting a stagnent or decreasing pay/benefit package for those AVERAGE jobs, since illegal labor can not complain about such things; as long as the SAME work in the U.S. pays 5x to 10x what it does in "the homeland" illegal aliens will still come here for it.

I agree that the lack of job availability has now slowed the influx TEMPORARILY, but as soon as things pick up, they will resume their illegal migration. These folks "without a dime in their pockets" pay handsomely for help getting into and established (with fake ID) in this country, and many have friends and relatives here to assist them as well.

Well I believe the discussion centers around the protection of Arizona's border with Mexico. Or did you think that illegal Canadians were streaming into Arizona and taking people's landscaping jobs?
 
BS. They simply can not, or will not accept stagnent or declining wage/benefit packages offered that STILL beat what the illegals can earn in their homeland by 5x tp 10x. Jobs that paid $10/hour 15 years ago STILL pay $10/hour, even though the cost of living (as a normal citizen) and the U.S. minimum wage has risen. Many illegals are quite willing to live 10 to a three bedroom house and send much of their earnings "home" to help support other relatives that they left behind. Look in ANY convenince store in south Texas and you will see countless anonymous "financial aids" to send money back to Mexico.

The same is true for almost ALL non-executive occupations -- not just those that are typically occupied by undocumented workers. Welcome to supply side economics land.
 
Well I believe the discussion centers around the protection of Arizona's border with Mexico. Or did you think that illegal Canadians were streaming into Arizona and taking people's landscaping jobs?

You are being UNBELIEVABLY dense, AND purposefully distorting things. Of course AZ is likely to have more illegal aliens of Mexican origin than the U.S. average, as they are a border state with Mexico. That is the strangest thing about "averages", is it not? Some places have WAY MORE illegal immigrants than others; perhaps you think AZ has only the average number of them?
 
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The same is true for almost ALL non-executive occupations -- not just those that are typically occupied by undocumented workers. Welcome to supply side economics land.

But that effect is MAGNIFIED tremendously in the border states. Look at what wages are paid for construction work in TX and AZ, then compare them to those SAME positions in NC and PA, using the gov't's Davis-Bacon act "prevailing" wages. Hmm...
 
You mean the "market" is not paying a wage high enough to attract legal workers.

No, I mean they priced themselves out of the market. I ran a construction company (and I only hired legal workers, by the way). Natural-born American citizens think they are too good to work for the wages immigrants will work for. On top of that, they weren't as good of employees.
 
But that effect is MAGNIFIED tremendously in the border states. Look at what wages are paid for construction work in TX and AZ, then compare them to those SAME positions in NC and PA, using the gov't's Davis-Bacon act "prevailing" wages. Hmm...

Did you forget to post the link?
 
BS. They simply can not, or will not accept stagnent or declining wage/benefit packages offered that STILL beat what the illegals can earn in their homeland by 5x tp 10x.

The problem with your assessment is the flawed assumption that it's just illegal immigrants that drive down the cost of labor. Legal immigrants, the people I typically hired, were twice the employee for half the cost as a natural born US citizen was.

Illegal immigrants aren't the problem (and they never have been, despite decades of whining by the anti-illegal crowd), lazy Americans are the problem. Personally I'd rather deport the no-skill-having, overpriced, arrogant Natural-born citizens that are nothing more than a victim-mentality drain in the economy than the hard working, talented, workers that just happen to be here illegally.
 
No, I mean they priced themselves out of the market. I ran a construction company (and I only hired legal workers, by the way). Natural-born American citizens think they are too good to work for the wages immigrants will work for. On top of that, they weren't as good of employees.

And don't you just know that this guy will pop up elsewhere arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished and government regulations are destroying business ... while crying because the government isn't protecting him from competition. :roll:
 
And don't you just know that this guy will pop up elsewhere arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished and government regulations are destroying business ... while crying because the government isn't protecting him from competition. :roll:

I'm always flabbergasted when a libertarian has an anti-illegal immigrant position. That's direct opposition to the one thing in this country that actually supports the idea that the free market economy actually works.
 
No, I mean they priced themselves out of the market. I ran a construction company (and I only hired legal workers, by the way). Natural-born American citizens think they are too good to work for the wages immigrants will work for. On top of that, they weren't as good of employees.
You are making my point, you as an employer would/could not pay enough to attract the employee you wanted. The employee you wanted could not live upon the wage you offered. His CoL was not met by your offer. It is not his fault that your wage offer does not meet his CoL needs. The "immigrants" (those "not" illegal) had a basement CoL, they could live off your offering. You are arguing that the employees that you want should be living at the bottom....and like it.

I'm still trying to understand how any of this makes you a "socialist".

PS....I enjoy your skipping over the Chamber of Commerce note.
 
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I'm always flabbergasted when a libertarian has an anti-illegal immigrant position. That's direct opposition to the one thing in this country that actually supports the idea that the free market economy actually works.

OK skippy let me TRY to explain the difference between the standard of living in Mexico vs. the U.S. to you. If you CARE to live at the EXACT same standard of living as your parents, then you see that you are VERY incorrect. The standard of living goes UP for the illegal immigrant (their parents are still in Mexico), but it goes DOWN for the U.S. citizen (their parents are in the U.S.) at THE SAME STATIC/DECLINING WAGES. In Mexico you drive on dirt roads, have little availability of clean water/sewer systems or any other gov't services, have rampant criminal gangs running around and have no legal system to protect you, by simply crossing the border you have entered paradise, increased your standard of living without even doing ANYTHING else yet; wages offered for ANY U.S. work are 5x to 10x what you left behind.

If you want the U.S. to become MORE like Mexico, simply start by paying those wages, lowering the standard of living here to match that. The U.S. worker sees this change as not being good and OBJECTS; you label that as anti free market? Perhaps we should START this race to the bottom by paying our school teachers and police the SAME wages that they get in Mexico, but NO, you want the PUBLIC workers immune from this "fairness" only those private highschool educated folks should play those compete with third world labor rate games.
 
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You are making my point, you as an employer would/could not pay enough to attract the employee you wanted.

What are you talking about? I didn't want to have to overpay for the employees I didn't want (i.e. the Natural born US citizens)


The employee you wanted could not live upon the wage you offered.

You got the order all wrong. The employees I wanted (hard working immigrants) were extremely happy with the wage I offered (since I paid very well). The employees I didn't want (the lazy American workers who weren't very skilled but thought they were special) thought that I didn't pay enough.

You are arguing that the employees that you want should be living at the bottom....and like it.

NO, I'm arguing that ****ty american workers shouldn't make the false assumption that they deserve more than the good immigrant workers by simple virtue of being American.

You've clearly misread what I've said, because you think it says something that it does not say.

I'm still trying to understand how any of this makes you a "socialist".

Don't trust the lean. Politically speaking, I'm close to the anti-federalists of th e1780's than anything else, and that lean does not exist, so I change my lean every few weeks for ****s and giggles.

PS....I enjoy your skipping over the Chamber of Commerce note.

I chose instead to focus on the patently false premise that you are operating from (that American workers are superior workers who are worth the cost of their asking price).

I don't deny that illegal immigration is good for businesses. They get equal-to-higher quality workmanship for a much lower cost than they would if they were forced into being stuck with lazy American workers.
 
OK skippy let me TRY to explain the difference between the standard of living in Mexico vs. the U.S. to you.

OK, let me TRY to explain to you the difference between hard working immigrants and lazy-ass Americans.

Immigrants work hard. They do this for less money.

Americans are lazy. They expect more money for this.

I don't give a flying **** about the standards of living (and by the way, my employees weren't Mexican. Hate to burst your pathetic strawman bubble, they were Irish immigrants. I do find it rather telling that you are ignorant enough to assume immigrant means Mexican, though. The Irish have a comparable standard of living, but a much better work ethic)
 
Any other administration I would agree with you, but this one? I am not so sure anymore....Obama is effectively saying he will not enforce the border in AZ, nor lend any federal help in doing so. I thought he took an oath?

Where has he siad that? Please, provide support for that claim.
 
And don't you just know that this guy will pop up elsewhere arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished and government regulations are destroying business ... while crying because the government isn't protecting him from competition. :roll:

OK then lets "level the field" this way. Immediatley end all welfare, SNAP and other handouts to make illegal/legal differences disappear, OR offer them to illegals as well, I don't care which way you go. NOW, will U.S. citizens and illegals BOTH work cheap? The answer, according to Tucker is NO, U.S. freeloders are unskilled and lazy so they must fed by the gov't since he won't hire them. The answer from you is NO, since you KNOW that given a choice, between welfare and very hard low wage work, it is a no brainer, the illegals would choose the dole just as 15% of the U.S. population now does.
 
The answer, according to Tucker is NO, U.S. freeloders are unskilled and lazy so they must fed by tha gov't since he won't hire them.

Not exactly. My stance is that the unskilled and lazy US workers think they deserve more money than they are worth. I would have hired them if they didn't price themselves out of the market. Why would I pay $30 an hour for an American who wasn't as skilled or hardworking as the skilled, hardworking immigrant who would work for $25 an hour? I'd hire that American for $10-$15 an hour because they weren't worth more than that. They wouldn't take the job for that amount, though.

(And that's the actual rates I paid per hour for carpenters, not $10 an hour. I'd pay my unskilled laborers the $10-$15 an hour rate).
 
I chose instead to focus on the patently false premise that you are operating from (that American workers are superior workers who are worth the cost of their asking price).
That was NEVER MY premise, your premise is the opposite. Your argument ignores the fact of CoL for the two groups we are discussing. A US citizen is not going to lower his level to that of a recent "immigrant" (echem..not "illegal"), but that is the wage you are offering. Again, the established high skilled US worker is someone you do not want to higher.

I don't deny that illegal immigration is good for businesses. They get equal-to-higher quality workmanship for a much lower cost than they would if they were forced into being stuck with lazy American workers.
or "non-lazy" US workers.

Your whole argument hinges on this "lazy" American. That is always the characterization used by those who won't pay a real wage. We call them "capitalist pigs".
 
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