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Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/226]

Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Let's all not overlook the obvious here... if Holder released all 80,000 documents that Issa wants, then Issa would merely turn around and subpoena another 80,000. The game being played here is clear... even to those playing it.

It's the same of many 'debates' here at DP... a claim is made, a source is demanded, a source is provided, the source is dismissed on superficial grounds and another source is demanded. Ad nauseum.

That would be wonderful, because then they'd have that excuse. As it is, they don't. And Adam, you still haven't shown where the POTUS has asserted EP. You've got the Atty General saying the president is going to do so. You maybe even have the Atty General requesting that the president assert EP (I say maybe because that doc isn't included in the PDF). But you don't have the POTUS, the only one who has the power to assert EP, claiming it.

I'm not saying he hasn't, just that thus far, it's nowhere to be seen.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

That would be wonderful, because then they'd have that excuse. As it is, they don't. And Adam, you still haven't shown where the POTUS has asserted EP. You've got the Atty General saying the president is going to do so. You maybe even have the Atty General requesting that the president assert EP (I say maybe because that doc isn't included in the PDF). But you don't have the POTUS, the only one who has the power to assert EP, claiming it.

I'm not saying he hasn't, just that thus far, it's nowhere to be seen.
Fine. It hasn't been asserted. No evidence exists. All the media reports are wrong. The letter written by the Deputy AG ro Rep. Issa asserting the president's EP is a fake (or a hoax) (or the product of total incompetence or delusion on the Deputy AG's part). You win, because what has been provided does not meet your criteria :lamo
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

From the previously posted http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...2011Letter.pdf



I see where the Atty General is advising the POTUS to claim EP (in the not included letter), and the reasons he thinks it's okay to do so, but that isn't how a declaration of EP works. Where's the president's letter to congress asserting the privilege and explaining the legal reasons for doing so?

Here is where you are confusing the issue. Obama is not using executive privilege to change the law, but to change the way it is enforced. The rationale for that is there are not enough resources to completely enforce it, so he chooses to go after the most egregious cases, not the ones where kids are brought into the country and ended up growing up here. Let's not forget that, under this administration deportations are the highest they have been in years, but the fact is, how much resources are you willing to devote to the problem? There is only so much in the budget for it, and if Congress decided to increase the budget to the point where Obama could go after ALL the lawbreakers, our budget would be busted in such a way that our present deficit would pale in comparison to it. Republicans have painted themselves into a corner. They are pushing for austerity, and draconian cuts to programs in order to obtain a balanced budget, but on the other hand, they want a level of enforcement that we cannot afford under the paradigm they are advocating. They can't have both without either losing the message on balanced budgets or alienating their base.
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

From what I have read on the subject I don’t think the whole Fast and Furious operation was the result of any ill intent on the part of the administration or law enforcement. I think they genuinely thought it would help them take down the big players. They seriously f—ked it up and I think the argument can be made that, despite their good intentions, the means didn’t justify the intended ends.

The ramifications of this f—k up are serious and people should be held accountable. You don’t get to take credit for the gambles that paid off (assault on OBL) and avoid responsibility for the gambles that don’t (Fast and Furious).

Regardless of who is President, I always get annoyed when they invoke executive privilege. I believe in the separation of powers, within reason. I don’t think the executive branch should be allowed to ignore a Congressional subpoena. The Congress represents the People and the Executive Branch is accountable to the People. I don’t give a flip about political party.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Regardless of who is President, I always get annoyed when they invoke executive privilege. I believe in the separation of powers, within reason. I don’t think the executive branch should be allowed to ignore a Congressional subpoena. The Congress represents the People and the Executive Branch is accountable to the People. I don’t give a flip about political party.

If this were like just some transcript of a meeting with a lobbyist or something, I would agree. But this is documents pertaining to our campaign against the drug cartels that are essentially in military control of our immediate neighbor. Protecting that kind of documents is absolutely, squarely, in the center of the kinds of things where the president should legitimately assert privilege. Odds are a guy like Issa would just forward them on to Fox News, but even if he didn't, the cartel would kidnap the little sister of some 19 year old unpaid intern that works for Issa like 5 minutes after they found out Issa got his hands on the documents and they'd have the documents by sundown and Issa wouldn't even know they had been copied. Who knows how many undercovers and informants would be killed that night or how many years our operations against the cartel would be set back.
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

If this were like just some transcript of a meeting with a lobbyist or something, I would agree. But this is documents pertaining to our campaign against the drug cartels that are essentially in military control of our immediate neighbor. Protecting that kind of documents is absolutely, squarely, in the center of the kinds of things where the president should legitimately assert privilege. Odds are a guy like Issa would just forward them on to Fox News, but even if he didn't, the cartel would kidnap the little sister of some 19 year old unpaid intern that works for Issa like 5 minutes after they found out Issa got his hands on the documents and they'd have the documents by sundown and Issa wouldn't even know they had been copied. Who knows how many undercovers and informants would be killed that night or how many years our operations against the cartel would be set back.

There are committees within Congress that have access to classified information on a daily basis. Starting with the 104th Congress, all House members were required to take a secrecy oath. There are methods in place to allow the committee members to view the information without releasing it to the public. If they violate their oath and responsibilities then hold them accountable. As it currently stands it too easy to hide misdoings under the veil of operational secrecy.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

There are committees within Congress that have access to classified information on a daily basis. Starting with the 104th Congress, all House members were required to take a secrecy oath. There are methods in place to allow the committee members to view the information without releasing it to the public. If they violate their oath and responsibilities then hold them accountable. As it currently stands it too easy to hide misdoings under the veil of operational secrecy.
Your argument seems to presume that Congress has the right to view any Executive branch document that it wishes. Congress does not have that right, as has been argued -- successfully -- by the Executive many times in the past. Security does not necessarily have anything to do with it.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Bigger article coming as this just happened.



i find it amazing how this administration is avoiding the government process to investigate the fast and furious debacle. Given this move, I am curious as to the opinions of others on this matter.

Well, the President certainly has the right to use Executive Privelege and it's use is nothing new or unique to this President. My thing is that EP can only be used when the President is involved. Since the investigation is largely based on finding out what the Presidents involvement was, I think his use of EP not only proves he was involved, but that earlier statmements that Senior DOJ and Whithouse officials were unaware of the program were outright lies.
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

If this were like just some transcript of a meeting with a lobbyist or something, I would agree. But this is documents pertaining to our campaign against the drug cartels that are essentially in military control of our immediate neighbor. Protecting that kind of documents is absolutely, squarely, in the center of the kinds of things where the president should legitimately assert privilege. Odds are a guy like Issa would just forward them on to Fox News, but even if he didn't, the cartel would kidnap the little sister of some 19 year old unpaid intern that works for Issa like 5 minutes after they found out Issa got his hands on the documents and they'd have the documents by sundown and Issa wouldn't even know they had been copied. Who knows how many undercovers and informants would be killed that night or how many years our operations against the cartel would be set back.

"Odds are a guy like Issa would just forward them on to Fox News"??? What evidence do you have to support this silly notion?

If leaks are your concern, try these.

Pattern of White House Leaks Threatens Nation

FBI looks into possible White House leaks - CNN


David Axelrod Insists Classified Leaks Not From White House - ABC News

You have things bass ackwards.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Your argument seems to presume that Congress has the right to view any Executive branch document that it wishes. Congress does not have that right, as has been argued -- successfully -- by the Executive many times in the past. Security does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

Only documents either authored by or solicited and received by the President or a advisor in close "operational proximity" with the President can be claimed under Executive Privilege. Judicial precedent from 1997 set that scope as bounded by the Executive Office of the President and the White House, and the AG is not covered by that, unless the President himself was involved in all 80,000 requested documents.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Your argument seems to presume that Congress has the right to view any Executive branch document that it wishes. Congress does not have that right, as has been argued -- successfully -- by the Executive many times in the past. Security does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

I am not arguing that. I fully recognize that Obama is within his legal rights to invoke executive privilege just as previous Presidents have. I am saying he shouldn't. I am saying I disagree with the law. Over the decades the office of the President has grown too powerful and I would like to see that trend reversed, or at least halted.

I can't help but think that many of my fellow lefties who are shrugging this off would be outraged if a Republican president had done the same thing. I know I would have. And yes, I think many of the outraged conservative folks would have made excuses for it if the President were a Republican. I am doing my best to be consistent in how I apply my criticism. I don't always succeed, but I am trying.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2


Rep. Issa is the Joe McCarty of the modern era!!!! He has proven time & again that he isn't interested in gathering facts. An all male hearing on Womans Health for example.(oh sure he rounded up a couple of dryed up old coochies for the 2nd session, after the media complained)
This hearing isn't about the ATF's program, it is about discrediting AG Holder & through him President Obama. Holder closed down the program, yet they (Issa) haven't suppenaed the Bush officals who started the program. They (Issa) have censered their own witnesses when they offered facts that were favorable to the AG. The whole thing is right out of Kaffka & we are tettering on the brink of full blown Fascism. :( :peace

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Bigger article coming as this just happened.



i find it amazing how this administration is avoiding the government process to investigate the fast and furious debacle. Given this move, I am curious as to the opinions of others on this matter.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

Your argument seems to presume that Congress has the right to view any Executive branch document that it wishes. Congress does not have that right, as has been argued -- successfully -- by the Executive many times in the past. Security does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

Its funny. The entire meme of the administration was that the higher ups had no operational knowledge and control of this particular policy and that it was administered on the local level. But now it is being shielded from oversight by executive privilige, indicating that high level administration officials were communicating. So which time were they lying?

It all looks like an assertion of executive privilige to avoid revealing documents that would show lying to congressional oversight. Which is not a proper assertion of E.P.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2


Rep. Issa is the Joe McCarty of the modern era!!!! He has proven time & again that he isn't interested in gathering facts. An all male hearing on Womans Health for example.(oh sure he rounded up a couple of dryed up old coochies for the 2nd session, after the media complained)
This hearing isn't about the ATF's program, it is about discrediting AG Holder & through him President Obama. Holder closed down the program, yet they (Issa) haven't suppenaed the Bush officals who started the program. They (Issa) have censered their own witnesses when they offered facts that were favorable to the AG. The whole thing is right out of Kaffka & we are tettering on the brink of full blown Fascism. :( :peace

Bush didn't "start this program". This is an entirely different one. During bush the guns were supposed to be stopped by authorities at the border itself. Oh, and I bet Eric "free the black panthers" Holder surely gave him all info on Bush era information anyway. Can you show me your posts about Karl Rove and Harriet miers witchhunts, btw?

You should love Fascism if you voted for Obama anyway, since that's his entire presidency thus far. Mabye that's why all these progressives and liberals on this forum make new accounts, so they can't get busted for their constant double standards and hypocrisy.
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2


Rep. Issa is the Joe McCarty of the modern era!!!! He has proven time & again that he isn't interested in gathering facts. An all male hearing on Womans Health for example.(oh sure he rounded up a couple of dryed up old coochies for the 2nd session, after the media complained)
This hearing isn't about the ATF's program, it is about discrediting AG Holder & through him President Obama. Holder closed down the program, yet they (Issa) haven't suppenaed the Bush officals who started the program. They (Issa) have censered their own witnesses when they offered facts that were favorable to the AG. The whole thing is right out of Kaffka & we are tettering on the brink of full blown Fascism. :( :peace

Why dont you take your special little snowflake font and get some new talking points, yours are false.

Wide reciever and F&F were separate programs with different operational knowledge (the Mexican government knew about WR, WR was shut down when the first weapon crossed the Mexican border and could not be tracked). F&F was done without Mexican Government knowledge and even some US agencies had no knowledge of the activities. Anyone parroting the false WR/FF parity talking point is going to get a lot of hostility; even Holder had to back off that point before Congress when he was under oath, he knew it was false.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over Fast and Furious

It all looks like an assertion of executive privilige to avoid revealing documents that would show lying to congressional oversight. Which is not a proper assertion of E.P.

There is no other possible explanation. Anything else is just noise.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

...dryed up old coochies...

I'm sorry, which side are you claiming is misogynistic?
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Why dont you take your special little snowflake font and get some new talking points, yours are false.

Wide reciever and F&F were separate programs with different operational knowledge (the Mexican government knew about WR, WR was shut down when the first weapon crossed the Mexican border and could not be tracked). F&F was done without Mexican Government knowledge and even some US agencies had no knowledge of the activities. Anyone parroting the false WR/FF parity talking point is going to get a lot of hostility; even Holder had to back off that point before Congress when he was under oath, he knew it was false.

Actually, a bunch of weapons were lost in Mexico as a result of Wide Receiver, and they did NOT coordinate the operation with Mexico. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...a_gun_walking_was_coordinated_with_mexico.php
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Why dont you take your special little snowflake font and get some new talking points, yours are false.

Wide reciever and F&F were separate programs with different operational knowledge (the Mexican government knew about WR, WR was shut down when the first weapon crossed the Mexican border and could not be tracked). F&F was done without Mexican Government knowledge and even some US agencies had no knowledge of the activities. Anyone parroting the false WR/FF parity talking point is going to get a lot of hostility; even Holder had to back off that point before Congress when he was under oath, he knew it was false.


aer you saying that Libs are out to lunch and have no clue on facts?... : )
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Actually, a bunch of weapons were lost in Mexico as a result of Wide Receiver, and they did NOT coordinate the operation with Mexico. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...

Emails Rebuff Republican Suggestion That Bush-Era ‘Gun Walking’ Was Always Coordinated With Mexico | TPMMuckraker

Since we dont have ALL the memos regarding how things have gone down, all we have to go on are the words of Dems playing CYA to blame BOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHH. Seems legit.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2


Rep. Issa has said he's going to have hearings 7 days a week, though out each session ontil President Obama is gone. He isn't interested in facts, just pushing his partisan agenda. As is anyone backing his play (You come to mind).
He isn't even pretending to be unbiased. That other R, I forget his name clarified the whole thing when he blurted out that it was about AG Holder trying to stop the voter purge in Florida. He could have added refusing to enforce DOMA & sueing Arizona for the "Papers Please" Law.
Your Fox Talking points are full of holes, BTW. :lamo:lamo:lamo :peace

Why dont you take your special little snowflake font and get some new talking points, yours are false.

Wide reciever and F&F were separate programs with different operational knowledge (the Mexican government knew about WR, WR was shut down when the first weapon crossed the Mexican border and could not be tracked). F&F was done without Mexican Government knowledge and even some US agencies had no knowledge of the activities. Anyone parroting the false WR/FF parity talking point is going to get a lot of hostility; even Holder had to back off that point before Congress when he was under oath, he knew it was false.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Since we dont have ALL the memos regarding how things have gone down, all we have to go on are the words of Dems playing CYA to blame BOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHH. Seems legit.

Everything is still the fault of George Bush, establishing a record of blaming the predecessor unmatched in the history of the United States.

If Obama didn't feel he was up to the task he should have never ran for President, and of course he should have never received the nomination much less the presidency.

It seems this was the only way he could achieve celebrity status, and he is certainly making the most of it.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Since we dont have ALL the memos regarding how things have gone down, all we have to go on are the words of Dems playing CYA to blame BOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHH. Seems legit.

Yeah, about as legitimate as this Issa lynch mob.
 
Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Bush didn't "start this program". This is an entirely different one. During bush the guns were supposed to be stopped by authorities at the border itself. [...]
:lamo

Come on guys, put down the Kool Aid; this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Re: Justice Dept says president has exerted executive privilege over F&F doc [W:116/2

Why dont you take your special little snowflake font and get some new talking points, yours are false.

Wide reciever and F&F were separate programs with different operational knowledge (the Mexican government knew about WR, WR was shut down when the first weapon crossed the Mexican border and could not be tracked). F&F was done without Mexican Government knowledge and even some US agencies had no knowledge of the activities. Anyone parroting the false WR/FF parity talking point is going to get a lot of hostility; even Holder had to back off that point before Congress when he was under oath, he knew it was false.

Yet wide receiver and F&F were both operated out of the same ATF office.Kinda odd don't you think?:roll:
 
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