Teacher of the year is laid off.

Dittohead not! said:

Why would unions block a system in which their members would get more pay and less hassle from administration, government, and bureaucrats?

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gosh dittohead, what a good question. Why would they?

I have a specialized degree, so I make more than my coworkers who have been teaching just as long as I have. I work my ass off all year long taking on extra committee jobs, working weekends, paying for many materials from my own pocket, etc. Now, I believe I'm paid well for what I do. I don't think I should be paid any more.

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why don't we pay people like this

However, if I did enough to just scoot by, never worked weekends, gossiped in the lounge instead of working, slacked off on committee work ... I'd STILL be paid the same salary because of my degree.

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more than people like this?

Aberration said:

Good to know its all about the kids.

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"When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

Comfort Food said:

I wouldn't be surprised. I believe CalPERS is a state agency so they should be able to nip that in the bud. Military and most police officers lose their pension for stuff like that. Teachers should as well.

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Should, but CalPers won't. It's contractual and they negotiate with the folks their donations put in office..

cpwill said:

why don't we pay people like this



more than people like this?

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In every workplace--unionized or not--you'll find deadwood. It's just the way it is. Please don't try and convince me that is not the case with the military, for example.

Josie said:

I have a specialized degree, so I make more than my coworkers who have been teaching just as long as I have. I work my ass off all year long taking on extra committee jobs, working weekends, paying for many materials from my own pocket, etc. Now, I believe I'm paid well for what I do. I don't think I should be paid any more.

However, if I did enough to just scoot by, never worked weekends, gossiped in the lounge instead of working, slacked off on committee work ... I'd STILL be paid the same salary because of my degree. That's messed up.

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So you work your butt off. Does it not make you feel slighted when some here argue that teachers are lazy and overpaid? In fact, one even thanked you which I find rather strange. J-mac, have you had a change of heart, deary?

Catawba said:

The Constitution only specifies defense. It says nothing about offensive spending. We can no longer afford to spend 7 times what the next biggest spender spends.

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Hey, no doubt about it. I fully agree. Now sure there was a time right after 9/11 that I was full throated in support of Iraq, and Afghanistan as it pertained to removing Saddam, and routing the Taliban. However, 10 years later, and building nations that have little use or appreciation for what we sacrificed for them? Not so much. But, with Obama, he doesn't just stick to his enumerated powers as laid out by the Constitution. He seems to think that he will play the constitution game as long as Congress goes along with what he wants, and if not, well then he can just do it anyway, whether through a Czar, or head of a regulatory body which is NOT our form of Government.

I've no problem with defense spending twice what the next biggest spender spends, like we used to until Reagan exploded our national debt with excessive military spending.

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So you would cut defense spending by at least 2/3 from $700 Billion to $200 Billion? Yeah, at this time in the world? heh, good luck with that.

But, people will figure that out eventually when they realize we have a debt problem.

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They realize that now, but they for the most part don't agree with you that it is a defense spending problem.

Middleground said:

So you work your butt off. Does it not make you feel slighted when some here argue that teachers are lazy and overpaid? In fact, one even thanked you which I find rather strange. J-mac, have you had a change of heart, deary?

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Not at all. People like Josie are the model of the type of teacher that we need to keep. However, I would point you toward reading her entire post, where she talks of teachers not doing what she does, or caring, and still getting paid the same, with the same protections. This is the problem with a union model.

j-mac

Catawba said:

The Constitution only specifies defense. It says nothing about offensive spending. We can no longer afford to spend 7 times what the next biggest spender spends.

I've no problem with defense spending twice what the next biggest spender spends, like we used to until Reagan exploded our national debt with excessive military spending.

But, people will figure that out eventually when they realize we have a debt problem.

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The constitution also specifies ZERO for the amount of federal education spending, yet the fastest growing, cabinet level federal department is DOEd. The entire DOEd should be terminated.

I agree that there is plenty of fat in the defense budget, even the DOD says this, yet billions in defense PORK spending is at play, as EACH congressional district has skin in the game, so EACH congressman helps all of the others to keep this nonsense going. I remember reading that 37 states are "involved" in the production of the latest "joint services" fighter aircraft project, thus it has a virtual congressional "LOCK" for funding. The F22, the last "must have" military toy, has NEVER been used in combat, yet its replacement, the F35 is a "top priority" simply because congress says so.

Foreign aid and "nation building" are other massive wastes of tax money; what sense does it make to borrow money just to give it away, often to nations that don't need it, have corrupt gov'ts and are filled with people that truely hate us?

Welfare money is constantly squandered on 12% to 15% of the population, that simply refuse to get educated, get off drugs/alcohol and stop having children that they can not afford to raise, yet we spend and average of $7,500 on each of these morons and call it a "war on poverty". The same nation that frets over the cost of caring for its elderly, many that have worked their entire lives paying into SS/Medicare, willingly tosses money to the parent(s) of newborn out-of-wedlock children simply because they exist.

We subsidze the production of corn, then we subsidze the production of sugar cane/beets to offset the losses caused by the subsidized high fructose corn syrup. We need a VERY serious review of this nations spending, specifically examining the constitutional authority of and a realistic cost/benefit analysis of ALL federal spending programs.

Middleground said:

So you work your butt off. Does it not make you feel slighted when some here argue that teachers are lazy and overpaid? In fact, one even thanked you which I find rather strange.

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This would be me - not necessarily the lazy thing, but the overpaid thing.

I just say this because I lack an emotional plea and am more concerned about the economics of the teaching situation, specifically supply and demand. Every May, colleges just flood the workplace with 22 year old girls graduating with degrees in education. Lowering the mean average salary of teachers may help put a stopper in this flood.

Boo Radley said:

Actually, it is that way even without a union. So, we should be honest.

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By this, do you mean onll for public sector jobs? Or for teachers in general? Because otherwise, I would have to disagree.

cpwill said:

"When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

- Albert Shanker, President, American Federation of Teachers​

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Wow.




10 characters.

j-mac said:

Not at all. People like Josie are the model of the type of teacher that we need to keep. However, I would point you toward reading her entire post, where she talks of teachers not doing what she does, or caring, and still getting paid the same, with the same protections. This is the problem with a union model.

j-mac

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In every workplace, you'll find deadwood. That is a fact. You can bitch and moan, but it is what it is. Having said that, I would not go as far as saying they are "many:"

Problem is that many teachers that got into that field don't. And they stink at the job, but then are protected from being let go based on performance, while a teacher of the year is gone based on little more than time put in.

It wouldn't be such a 'broad brush' situation if so many teachers, and blanket defenders didn't broadly say that it's all the parents, and students fault, that they fail as teachers.

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But I digress. Although your numbers are distorted (many), I will say that you do realize that at least some teachers work hard. There are some here who take it much further, saying they all have it easy, all to make a silly political point :roll: . Endless vacation time, early end of workday, etcetera. I'm not even in that profession and it bothers me.

Middleground said:

So you work your butt off. Does it not make you feel slighted when some here argue that teachers are lazy and overpaid? In fact, one even thanked you which I find rather strange. J-mac, have you had a change of heart, deary?

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Well, many teachers I work with ARE pretty lazy. They refuse to take anything home or volunteer during the summer because "I'm not getting paid to do that!" I want to have each grade level have a little "book club" with a professional book that we read and discuss once a week during our planning periods. That would make their heads explode. It's funny how many of them complain about their planning periods being taking away from them, but then they spend that time chatting with their neighbor next door or reading the newspaper in the lounge.

I've told this story a couple of times, but I'll tell it again. When I was student teaching, my cooperating teacher (4th grade) told me: "Don't let anyone tell you this is a calling - it's just a paycheck." I hated her from day one. You could tell she was just there for a paycheck. She was mean, frustrated all the time, rude, lazy and just stupid. People like that ARE overpaid. They shouldn't be getting paid at all.

Josie said:

Well, many teachers I work with ARE pretty lazy. They refuse to take anything home or volunteer during the summer because "I'm not getting paid to do that!" I want to have each grade level have a little "book club" with a professional book that we read and discuss once a week during our planning periods. That would make their heads explode. It's funny how many of them complain about their planning periods being taking away from them, but then they spend that time chatting with their neighbor next door or reading the newspaper in the lounge.

I've told this story a couple of times, but I'll tell it again. When I was student teaching, my cooperating teacher (4th grade) told me: "Don't let anyone tell you this is a calling - it's just a paycheck." I hated her from day one. You could tell she was just there for a paycheck. She was mean, frustrated all the time, rude, lazy and just stupid. People like that ARE overpaid. They shouldn't be getting paid at all.

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That is your perception. I doubt most teachers are lazy and are in it for the paycheque.

I wouldn't presume to know the minds of most teachers, and I also don't know what it's like in school now days. But in the 90s, when I was in school, I kinda thought my teachers were pretty damn committed, and did a pretty darn good job. I didn't get the feeling it was "just a paycheck" for many of them. And this was in SC, HARDLY known for the quality of it's educational system.


Who knows, though. Things can change a LOT in 15 years.

Here's an excellent summary. Josie, you must either have odd luck working with such a higher % of deadwood, or your perception is off.

Gipper said:

This would be me - not necessarily the lazy thing, but the overpaid thing.

I just say this because I lack an emotional plea and am more concerned about the economics of the teaching situation, specifically supply and demand. Every May, colleges just flood the workplace with 22 year old girls graduating with degrees in education. Lowering the mean average salary of teachers may help put a stopper in this flood.

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Keep in mind the baby boomers are on the cusp of retirement. There will be a hole to fill in the near future.

Rhapsody1447 said:

The money is wasted on things that don't improve education, therefore we shouldn't reduce how much we spend? What?

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It's not complicated. The money should be better spent. Less money on administration and more money on classroom supplies, teachers, technology, teacher training, and other things that actually affect learning.

ttwtt78640 said:

The constitution also specifies ZERO for the amount of federal education spending, yet the fastest growing, cabinet level federal department is DOEd. The entire DOEd should be terminated.

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Agreed. Clinton started it, with Republican opposition, Bush continued it and expanded it, now Obama has doubled down on it. It's a monster growing uncontrollably and needs to be ended.

Won't be, but should be.

ttwtt78640 said:

I agree that there is plenty of fat in the defense budget, even the DOD says this, yet billions in defense PORK spending is at play, as EACH congressional district has skin in the game, so EACH congressman helps all of the others to keep this nonsense going. I remember reading that 37 states are "involved" in the production of the latest "joint services" fighter aircraft project, thus it has a virtual congressional "LOCK" for funding. The F22, the last "must have" military toy, has NEVER been used in combat, yet its replacement, the F35 is a "top priority" simply because congress says so.

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Right again. The voters are largely to blame for this one. They want the government to scale back spending, but they like it when their representative brings home the pork. How else do you explain building an aircraft in 37 different states if not to preserve the jobs of 37 different representatives?

ttwtt78640 said:

Foreign aid and "nation building" are other massive wastes of tax money; what sense does it make to borrow money just to give it away, often to nations that don't need it, have corrupt gov'ts and are filled with people that truely hate us?

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But the "conservatives", i.e., authoritarians, in Congress find it necessary to have some control over other nations. Hey, you're not one of those isolationist Libertarians, are you?

ttwtt78640 said:

Welfare money is constantly squandered on 12% to 15% of the population, that simply refuse to get educated, get off drugs/alcohol and stop having children that they can not afford to raise, yet we spend and average of $7,500 on each of these morons and call it a "war on poverty". The same nation that frets over the cost of caring for its elderly, many that have worked their entire lives paying into SS/Medicare, willingly tosses money to the parent(s) of newborn out-of-wedlock children simply because they exist.

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But bread and circuses worked so well for the Romans, didn't it?

ttwtt78640 said:

We subsidze the production of corn, then we subsidze the production of sugar cane/beets to offset the losses caused by the subsidized high fructose corn syrup. We need a VERY serious review of this nations spending, specifically examining the constitutional authority of and a realistic cost/benefit analysis of ALL federal spending programs.

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Except, of course, the ones being pitched by the well heeled lobbyists.

Like corn ethanol for example, and subsidies for every crop we grow.

Middleground said:

That is your perception. I doubt most teachers are lazy and are in it for the paycheque.

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I didn't say they were. I'm talking about my experiences. Many teachers I have encountered in my life are lazy and don't seem to care about anything except money.

This perfectly summarizes the modern union.

I've been teaching for nearly 20 years and the majority of teachers I've met or worked with work very hard. Yes, I've known some who should be in a different job, but they are the minority. Most teachers are there much longer than the adminstrators.

Yes, sometimes teachers don't want to add to their work load without being paid for it. I don't think that makes them unusual or unreasonable. Two years ago this state cut a program that paid teachers for doing extra work. This program paid for things the teacher did beyond their job description. The first time the legislatiure tried to cut it at the end of the school year. This would have denied payment to the teachers after they had done the work. We avoided that but they cut it for the next school year. This meant a pay cut of up to $5,000. Now I do know that some teachers have stopped doing some of the things funded by this program, but most of the work is still being done. Expecting to paid for the work you do doesn't make one a bad teacher.

Finally, for all the anti-union out there. Last in first out is common in most schools regardless of the union. I've said this so many times but people don't seem to believe it. Not all teachers are in a union.

cpwill said:

"When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

- Albert Shanker, President, American Federation of Teachers​

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I've seen this before and I know it's been posted to paint an ugly picture of the union. However, who is a union supposed to represent? Does the auto workers unions represent the people buying the cars? The AFT and NEA and all unions are supposed to represent and protect their members. Now hopefully teachers want what is best for their students and I think that most do. I've never been a member of a union and I don't agree with all that they do but I do see the need for teachers to have protection and representation.

Layla_Z said:

I've seen this before and I know it's been posted to paint an ugly picture of the union. However, who is a union supposed to represent? Does the auto workers unions represent the people buying the cars? The AFT and NEA and all unions are supposed to represent and protect their members. Now hopefully teachers want what is best for their students and I think that most do. I've never been a member of a union and I don't agree with all that they do but I do see the need for teachers to have protection and representation.

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They already have protection. They have for years. They already have representation, just all the rest of us do.

If they wanted what was best for the children, they wouldn't strike.

Its not too tough to see California's problems. They spend too much. When you look at who gets taxed for what services that is also very telling. When 60% of your state budget is built on 4% of your population you cant be shocked when businesses and the wealthy citizens decide to say saionara, hasta la vista, adios, adieu, c-ya.

Welfare, Health Care, and Education account for 53% of the states budget. Pensions account for another 7% (yet another example of the problem with promising pensions based on future budgets and not "paying as you go"). Cant blame this on governor Moonbeam...cant blame it on Ahnuld...cant blame it even on Davis. Californians are addicted to social services and spending. You cant be shocked that there are budget cuts and reductions in education spending when the average citizen in California is under-taxed and refuses to pay for said services.

Government Spending Details: California State Local for 2012 - Charts

Middleground said:

Keep in mind the baby boomers are on the cusp of retirement. There will be a hole to fill in the near future.

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Baby boomers are retiring in all professions though, not just teaching. It still wouldn't explain the massively disproportionate amount of college grads who are choosing teaching.

Holes are being filled up in finance/business, law, medicine, engineering, mathematics, etc. Unfortunately, the people looking to fill those holes are few and far between. Well, maybe not law, but the rest of them for sure.