Florida sues Homeland Security over state voter purge

Aunt Spiker said:

Somewhat - it's a process; fill out forms. You need a reason for inquiring - you just can't ask - you need a reason. The government doesn't just do whatever it wants.

Are they going to run a request process for every individual? How many government hours will that consume?

What they want is to have free access to the database - which is unacceptable. HOWEVER MUCH I support Florida's efforts to curtail this and control this: I don't believe they have the right to do so by taking over the database system for a while.

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I have not seen any indication that they want free access to the database. Have you? DHS has a per use fee that they evidently feel is enough to cover their costs. Since they reported a 14% profit in user fees, they are obviously charging enough for use of the database.

They want to use it the same way hundreds of other agencies and states have... to verify immigration status.

Aunt Spiker said:

Somewhat - it's a process; fill out forms. You need a reason for inquiring - you just can't ask - you need a reason. The government doesn't just do whatever it wants.

Are they going to run a request process for every individual? How many government hours will that consume?

What they want is to have free access to the database - which is unacceptable. HOWEVER MUCH I support Florida's efforts to curtail this and control this: I don't believe they have the right to do so by taking over the database system for a while.

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Illegals voting against the law is a very good reason.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION REFORM AND IMMIGRANT RESPONSIBILITY ACT 1996 (IIRIRA-96)

Section 215. Criminal Penalty for False Claim to Citizenship.

It is unlawful for any person to: (1) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship or nationality for the purpose of obtaining, for him or herself or any other person, any federal benefit or service or employment in the U.S.; and (2) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship to vote or register to vote in any federal, state, or local election.

http://www.nacua.org/documents/iirira.pdf

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Gill said:

I have not seen any indication that they want free access to the database. Have you? DHS has a per use fee that they evidently feel is enough to cover their costs. Since they reported a 14% profit in user fees, they are obviously charging enough for use of the database.

They want to use it the same way hundreds of other agencies and states have... to verify immigration status.

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That's a grey area - they haven't defined how theyd' do it. . . they have stated their intent is to compare *everyone* who's a register voter to the SAVE database. . . millions of people?

They can use their own database for that purpose to the best of their intent - the feds should stay out of individual state voting issues completely to avoid crossing the constituttionally defined lines of what the fed can and cannot do.

It should be addressed by supreme court - at least - just bikering with the department is going to lead no where.

If the fed in the end agrees; they have to come up with some sort of method or way of making it smooth and efficient without interfering with other such services. . . someone needs to defined the method and means for use on such a large scale.

Aunt Spiker said:

That's a grey area - they haven't defined how theyd' do it. . . they have stated their intent is to compare *everyone* who's a register voter to the SAVE database. . . millions of people?

They can use their own database for that purpose to the best of their intent - the feds should state out of individual state voting issues completely to avoid crossing the constituttionally defined lines of what the fed can and cannot do.

It should be addressed by supreme court - at least - just bikering with the department is going to lead no where.

If the fed in the end agrees; they have to come up with some sort of method or way of making it smooth and efficient without interfering with other such services. . . someone needs to defined the method and means for use on such a large scale.

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Do you actually think they would pay for access to the SAVE database if their drivers license data was correct and usable??? That makes no sense. They've already said they tried to use it and it was not sufficient for the purpose.

SAVE was created so states could verify citizenship for benefits, licenses, and voter registration..... exactly what Florida is attempting to do. The federal mandates were passed by Congress into law, so there is no legal or logical reason why DHS is preventing them from accessing the data, EXCEPT to prevent Florida from purging non-citizens from the voter rolls.

Aunt Spiker said:

That's a grey area - they haven't defined how theyd' do it. . . they have stated their intent is to compare *everyone* who's a register voter to the SAVE database. . . millions of people?

They can use their own database for that purpose to the best of their intent - the feds should state out of individual state voting issues completely to avoid crossing the constituttionally defined lines of what the fed can and cannot do.

It should be addressed by supreme court - at least - just bikering with the department is going to lead no where.

If the fed in the end agrees; they have to come up with some sort of method or way of making it smooth and efficient without interfering with other such services. . . someone needs to defined the method and means for use on such a large scale.

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You know, this FL voter purge debate and DHS denial of unfettered access to a federal citizen -vs- alien database is a great argument for a national ID card.

Just saying...

Gill said:

Do you actually think they would pay for access to the SAVE database if their drivers license data was correct and usable??? That makes no sense. They've already said they tried to use it and it was not sufficient for the purpose.

SAVE was created so states could verify citizenship for benefits, licenses, and voter registration..... exactly what Florida is attempting to do. The federal mandates were passed by Congress into law, so there is no legal or logical reason why DHS is preventing them from accessing the data, EXCEPT to prevent Florida from purging non-citizens from the voter rolls.

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If they were able to do this on a case-by-case basis then why haven't they been using SAVE as needed when an individual registered to vote? Why haven't they required verifiable 'citizenship evidence' (birht certificate, etc) - to register? Florida dropped the ball and now wants the feds to go out of their way to help them along and fix their errors.

Maybe they should fix the problems within their own state and their own system first that created this entire situation . . .and use the system like everyone else has to; fill out a request form *when* it's absolutely necessary.

Regardless - the supreme court should define this issue and address it; the feds shouldn't muddle the lines purely because of Florida's past lack of give-a-damn . . . it would only create more issues if the feds just went along with it.

In general: One issue I have overall is the federal government's many bureaucracies and agencies and how they each believe they have the right to just do whatever they want without prior approval - in general; I believe that every single action and permission given to any such must be decided on by the Scotus or Congress; I don't believe they should have the power to dictate this issue unless otherwise instructed to do so.

It started with the Chevron ruling for agencies and just sort of exploded from there - the branches of the fed gov need to be reigned in.

Aunt Spiker said:

If they were able to do this on a case-by-case basis then why haven't they been using SAVE as needed when an individual registered to vote? Why haven't they required verifiable 'citizenship evidence' (birht certificate, etc) - to register? Florida dropped the ball and now wants the feds to go out of their way to help them along and fix their errors.

Maybe they should fix the problems within their own state and their own system first that created this entire situation . . .and use the system like everyone else has to; fill out a request form *when* it's absolutely necessary.

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Name me one state that requires a birth certificate to register to vote...........

Wisconsin was registering people at the voting booth a few weeks ago. Almost no identification is required to register to vote anywhere.

Aunt Spiker said:

If they were able to do this on a case-by-case basis then why haven't they been using SAVE as needed when an individual registered to vote? Why haven't they required verifiable 'citizenship evidence' (birht certificate, etc) - to register? Florida dropped the ball and now wants the feds to go out of their way to help them along and fix their errors.

Maybe they should fix the problems within their own state and their own system first that created this entire situation . . .and use the system like everyone else has to; fill out a request form *when* it's absolutely necessary.

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Why would you be against them using every database available to weed out folks who shouldn't be voting? It's against the law you know.

Gill said:

Do you actually think they would pay for access to the SAVE database if their drivers license data was correct and usable??? That makes no sense. They've already said they tried to use it and it was not sufficient for the purpose.

SAVE was created so states could verify citizenship for benefits, licenses, and voter registration..... exactly what Florida is attempting to do. The federal mandates were passed by Congress into law, so there is no legal or logical reason why DHS is preventing them from accessing the data, EXCEPT to prevent Florida from purging non-citizens from the voter rolls.

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Again, state or private contractor use of the SAVE database is commercial in nature, i.e., fee-based. If FL really wants the information the database contains beyond what they already have access to, i.e., DMV record comparisons, then they'd best accept the fact that they'll just have to pay for the information after they've narrowed down their list of questionable illegally registered voters.

The problem clearly is FL's Republican governor, while trying to do the right thing (no pun intended here), is playing to Right-Wing politics (pun clearly intended here).

"I want to clean up the state's voter registration records and have clean and fair elections from here on out, but the Obama Administration won't give my state direct and unfettered access to the SAVE database."

Suck it up, man! Narrow down your list using the verification means at your disposal then submit your list of questionable voter registrants to the DHS appropriately...after paying the prerequisit fees, of course.

DOJ, Florida in Dueling Lawsuits Over Voter Purge

Objective Voice said:

Again, state or private contractor use of the SAVE database is commercial in nature, i.e., fee-based. If FL really wants the information the database contains beyond what they already have access to, i.e., DMV record comparisons, then they'd best accept the fact that they'll just have to pay for the information after they've narrowed down their list of questionable illegally registered voters.

The problem clearly is FL's Republican governor, while trying to do the right thing (no pun intended here), is playing to Right-Wing politics (pun clearly intended here).

"I want to clean up the state's voter registration records and have clean and fair elections from here on out, but the Obama Administration won't give my state direct and unfettered access to the SAVE database."

Suck it up, man! Narrow down your list using the verification means at your disposal then submit your list of questionable voter registrants to the DHS appropriately...after paying the prerequisit fees, of course.

DOJ, Florida in Dueling Lawsuits Over Voter Purge

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One more time..... what proof do you have that Florida is not willing to pay for access to the database???

Even if the feds were authorized to give access to the SAVE database, it appears that Florida has not provided sufficient information to make use of it:

But [Assistant Attorney General Thomas] Perez wrote that Florida has been on notice for eight months that the federal database can only work if Florida provides more information than the name and date of birth of potential non-citizen voters, such as numeric identifiers in immigration paperwork or underlying immigration documents.

“Florida has failed to either to provide the necessary information to DHS, or to confirm that the necessary information would be available for verification purposes under the SAVE Program,” he wrote. “As a result, the significant problems you are encountering in administering this new program are of your own creation.”
Feds, Florida in dueling lawsuits over voter purge | www.palmbeachpost.com

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AdamT said:

Even if the feds were authorized to give access to the SAVE database, it appears that Florida has not provided sufficient information to make use of it:

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Is that why DHS has been cancelling teleconferences and meetings with Florida officials for 8 months to discuss the issue ????

Prof. Peabody said:

Why would you be against them using every database available to weed out folks who shouldn't be voting? It's against the law you know.

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I'm not against them using it - why do you think I am? Simply; I believe that in order for this to happen the method and rules of conduct need to be defined - permission needs to be given to those rules that are defined so the Constitution is not violated in the process.

Florida right now is in knee-jerk mode; they were embarassed and want to quickly fix something that hsould be done *very carefully*

We cannot forget that Florida's failure to verify *with* the SAVE system (etc) per registration is the reason why we they have this issue - they cannot just snap their fingers and undo it quickly. They MUST define their method and their approach and be sure to take time to do it right and make sure that proper citzens are not dropped and denied their rights, etc, because of a system error or misidentification (etc).

One thing we know for sure; is that anytime any government wnats ot do somethig quickly to remedy a situation that grew over time they're certain to **** it all up for everyone.

I see the liberals are running interference as usual.

Multiple references to Florida wanting free access, based on what?

Where have they said "we demand free access to the SAVE database"

DHS has denied them access. You can't buy a product if the owner is unwilling to sell it.

Aunt Spiker said:

I'm not against them using it - why do you think I am? Simply; I believe that in order for this to happen the method and rules of conduct need to be defined - permission needs to be given to those rules that are defined so the Constitution is not violated in the process.

Florida right now is in knee-jerk mode; they were embarassed and want to quickly fix something that hsould be done *very carefully*

We cannot forget that Florida's failure to verify *with* the SAVE system (etc) per registration is the reason why we they have this issue - they cannot just snap their fingers and undo it quickly. They MUST define their method and their approach and be sure to take time to do it right and make sure that proper citzens are not dropped and denied their rights, etc, because of a system error or misidentification (etc).

One thing we know for sure; is that anytime any government wnats ot do somethig quickly to remedy a situation that grew over time they're certain to **** it all up for everyone.

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Knee jerk ???? Are you serious ???

Florida has been trying to schedule meetings with DHS for almost a year and DHS keeps cancelling them at the last minute.

Gill said:

Is that why DHS has been cancelling teleconferences and meetings with Florida officials for 8 months to discuss the issue ????

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We all know why the the Federal Government is doing what they are doing. The need votes from illegal aliens to stay in power and I don't think even that will help.

Well over 8% unemployment for the longest sustained time in the history of this country since the great depression. 16+% underemployment (stimulus jobs), $4+ trillion dollars in new debt in less than 4 years, home foreclosures continuing unabated by any Obama plan, gasoline hovering around $4 a gallon, food prices hitting the stratosphere and GDP growth below 2% which means we're losing ground.

That's the platform the Obama and the Democrats have to run on?

Aunt Spiker said:

I'm not against them using it - why do you think I am?

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I read your posts?

Gill said:

One more time..... what proof do you have that Florida is not willing to pay for access to the database???

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Because they keep insisting that DHS won't give them access to the database in question when all they have to do is pay for the short-list of questionable registered voters. Again, they have access to the legally registered voters via their own DMV. It's a very simple thing to wrap your mind around.

Capitalism...free market....profits....pay-to-play.

Why are liberals so damn afraid of doing what's right? Actually, I know exactly why. I just wait for the day they admit it. LOL

It's so blatantly and childishly transparent, it's comical. I used to have the same conversations with my kids when they got caught doing things they weren't supposed to when they were 5.

Objective Voice said:

Because they keep insisting that DHS won't give them access to the database in question when all they have to do is pay for the short-list of questionable registered voters. Again, they have access to the legally registered voters via their own DMV. It's a very simple thing to wrap your mind around.

Capitalism...free market....profits....pay-to-play.

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If they don't GIVE them access, there's nothing to pay for. Use of the site is based on $0.50 PER USE. No access, no pay.

How can they owe for use of the database if they are not allowed to access it ???

Prof. Peabody said:

I read your posts?

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Well then I should have been more careful with my wording - such a sensitive subject, I should have slowed down, defined my views, the legal issues, and presented the possible solutions.

I'm fine with it if 1) The supreme court rules it appropriate - or 2) State and fed organization work together to define the method and means - obviously filling out an application for every citizen registered to vote is not appropriate or timely with Florida wanting it done asap, and if it's done hastily and by someone not fully familiar with the system information could be misinterpreted and someone who is a legal resident and ok to vote might be denied the right - or 3) Congress defines a new system - or modifies rules for this system - so something can be done on a mass-scale.

It is a grey area - which no one's denying - and it should be done carefully and properly and with agreement of all involved; not with 'peer pressure' which is what Florida's doing; Florida ****ed up - they then took on this new view - and want to hurry up and make magic happen . . . **** doesn't work like that. You can't just snap your fingers and tada.

The agency CANNOT just ignore their already existing and defined procedures to appease Florida who created this problem for itself. . . what exactly is Florida wanting to do? Does Florida even have a solution or an idea of how to comb thorugh millions that does not force the agency to defy it's established procedural rules? . . . I read several articles and there' seems ot be no defined solution - they just want 'access' - well they need to be more clear than that, do they not?

Prof. Peabody said:

I was listening to Rick Scott on the radio, he said as many as 182,000 registered voters who may not be U.S. citizens. Janet Incompitano appears to be stonewalling on the SAVE database like Holder on Fast & Furious. Didn't Obama promise transparency with his administration? 182,000 votes could be an election changer in any close race.

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I hope Florida is successful. Illegal voters should be purged and I suspect that race parasites in in the justice department are using the fact that most illegals are Hispanic to make false claims of racial discrimination.

Aunt Spiker said:

Well then I should have been more careful with my wording - such a sensitive subject, I should have slowed down, defined my views, the legal issues, and presented the possible solutions.

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Yes, you should.

jamesrage said:

I hope Florida is successful. Illegal voters should be purged and I suspect that race parasites in in the justice department are using the fact that most illegals are Hispanic to make false claims of racial discrimination.

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ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION REFORM AND IMMIGRANT RESPONSIBILITY ACT 1996 (IIRIRA-96)

Section 215. Criminal Penalty for False Claim to Citizenship.

It is unlawful for any person to: (1) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship or nationality for the purpose of obtaining, for him or herself or any other person, any federal benefit or service or employment in the U.S.; and (2) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship to vote or register to vote in any federal, state, or local election.

http://www.nacua.org/documents/iirira.pdf

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They should be prosecuted or offered the option to leave the U.S.

Gill said:

If they don't GIVE them access, there's nothing to pay for. Use of the site is based on $0.50 PER USE. No access, no pay.

How can they owe for use of the database if they are not allowed to access it ???

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Again, it's a fee-based system. You submit your list of questionable individuals, pay the prerequisite fee and in return you get back the results you seek, if any. Read the DHS SAVE database abstract I linked to previously; it should provide you will the answers you seek.

And stop pretending that "ACCESS" means unabated entrance into a place or information source.

It's pay-to-play, baby. Capitalism at its best...that is until it gets in the way of political motives by the NeoCons. Then it's "access denied". :lol:

Also for your reading pleasure on the subject matter at hand: The Bizarre and Confusing Standoff Between Florida and DOJ over Voter Purging

The state of Florida is defying orders from the federal government to cease a voter purging program they say they’re not conducting. Topping that, the state is seeking access to a federal database it already has access to.

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Re: DMV records