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Eric Holder grilled over Fast and Furious in Congress

TurtleDude said:
we will hope you make the same point the next time some liberal gun hater starts whining when another Loughner shoots someone and the libs want to blame the gun or the dealer who sold it or the municipality that did not ban guns etc
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Now please don't bring any truth into the debate, you'll really set off a confusion bomb. Some folks like living in "La La Land" and it suits them. :mrgreen:
 
Prof. Peabody said:
So, an adult who provided a minor with alcohol then the minor then went out and ran someone over in the street driving drunk, the adult shouldn't be held responsible because the teen would have gotten the alcohol somewhere else?
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Only if they're from the Rebub party. Remember the Valarie Plame case? The Dems wanted those responsble hung high. But gun running and a dead American, under the Obama Admin, isn't something to to get all upset over. :slapme:
 
AdamT said:
Admittedly it's a bit absurd to compare the epic screwup of pushing the country into war based on false and faked up intelligence to a small law enforcement action, but it should be quite revealing. Surely all of you Holder haters were calling for GWB's impeachment ... right?
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Way to double down on the absurdity...
 
AdamT said:
Way to keep dodging the question.
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Sorry... but the stupid burns in this case... why answer seriously to twice the absurdity that you even acknowledged? Sure you don't want to throw Hitler or Stalin in somewhere? :lamo
 
Ockham said:
Sorry... but the stupid burns in this case... why answer seriously to twice the absurdity that you even acknowledged? Sure you don't want to throw Hitler or Stalin in somewhere? :lamo
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No, I just want you to answer whether you gave the same kind of heat to a president who was responsible for 4000+ American deaths and countless injuries due to incompetence that you're giving to the current president over two deaths that most likely would have occurred anyway.

chirp chirp
 
j-mac said:
Iraq, and F/F have NOTHING to do with each other. Sorry, you've lost this one.....


j-mac
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The issue I'm raising is the feigned outrage of the far right. Thus the comparison.
 
AdamT said:
No, I just want you to answer whether you gave the same kind of heat to a president who was responsible for 4000+ American deaths and countless injuries due to incompetence that you're giving to the current president over two deaths that most likely would have occurred anyway.

chirp chirp
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Why do people use this type of debate style? One has nothing to do with the other. It is a misdirection of the topic. Its the old, well "X" did this, so what is the big deal. If you want to debate Bush and the war, start another thread.

IMO, Holder and the DOJ has been playing politics with F&F, and not in a good way. I look at the issue on its own merits. This one smells.
 
mike2810 said:
Why do people use this type of debate style? One has nothing to do with the other. It is a misdirection of the topic. Its the old, well "X" did this, so what is the big deal. If you want to debate Bush and the war, start another thread.

IMO, Holder and the DOJ has been playing politics with F&F, and not in a good way. I look at the issue on its own merits. This one smells.
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since you asked, it's called pointing out the hypocrisy
the unnecessary deaths of 4000 are ignored while the death or another is highlighted, even tho in that instance the government's actions may in no way have contributed to the death - unlike the other 4000
 
AdamT said:
The issue I'm raising is the feigned outrage of the far right. Thus the comparison.
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But what you portray is the absurdity of the far left. You complain about partisan politics in this thread yet practice it yourself. Notice the lack of lefties in this thread? Its mostly you and jusabubba. Its because the rational dems/liberals/members of the far left know Holder has lied to and been stone walling congress, and congress by the way has had just about enough. There is no justification for Holder's behavior. Most everyone but you two seem to know that, like it or not.

Actually, if you two hadn't provided so many conservatives so much entertainment the past two days, this thread would have long since died. But hey, if you two want to continue with your partisan support for what most everyone else here at DP, and in the US conclude to be a huge mistake by the present administration, especially Holder, then debate on!
 
AdamT said:
No, I just want you to answer whether you gave the same kind of heat to a president who was responsible for 4000+ American deaths and countless injuries due to incompetence that you're giving to the current president over two deaths that most likely would have occurred anyway.

chirp chirp
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I blame these people for the Iraq war:



As for the actual topic of this thread, it is obvious to anyone with reasoning ability that the purpose of Fast and Furious was NOT to track weapons into Mexico, because if that was the intent of the operation, they failed miserably. I'm not completely discounting the idea, this administration has proven inept at just about everything they've tried.

However: The intent of F&F was to send weapons into Mexico, wait until they were used by the drug cartels to kill people, and then say "SEE?!? Guns are BAD, and we need to outlaw them immediately!!!"

Holder is trying (and failing) to hide this obvious conclusion. The truth will come out eventually, despite ridiculous assertions like the one that memos referring to Fast & Furious weren't actually about Fast & Furious. Obama and Holder cooked up this scheme, and everyone with a properly functioning brain knows they did...and why. Hopefully Holder will be prosecuted and jailed for this (maybe they can put him in Guantanamo with the rest of his anti-American buddies).

Final point, it's good to know that only the shooters are responsible for the shootings, and not the gun suppliers. The Columbine High School killers got their guns from the Tanner Gun Show in Denver, and the anti-2nd amendment nuts protest the gun show for that reason to this very day. I'll make sure to discuss F&F with said nuts at their next protest.
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1060588615 said:
But what you portray is the absurdity of the far left. You complain about partisan politics in this thread yet practice it yourself. Notice the lack of lefties in this thread? Its mostly you and jusabubba. Its because the rational dems/liberals/members of the far left know Holder has lied to and been stone walling congress, and congress by the way has had just about enough. There is no justification for Holder's behavior. Most everyone but you two seem to know that, like it or not.

Actually, if you two hadn't provided so many conservatives so much entertainment the past two days, this thread would have long since died. But hey, if you two want to continue with your partisan support for what most everyone else here at DP, and in the US conclude to be a huge mistake by the present administration, especially Holder, then debate on!
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The fact is that there is no evidence Holder has done anything wrong. The operation was a screwup, like a similar operation under Bush (that you righties always gloss over), but there's no indication that Holder authorized it. The truth is that Issa is on a partisan witch hunt that isn't even supported by Republican leadership. He's on a fishing expedition, requesting tens of thousands of pages of sensitive law enforcement records which could jeopardize many ongoing investigations. That's why the Reagan and Bush DOJs also refused to turn over records.
 
AdamT said:
The fact is that there is no evidence Holder has done anything wrong. The operation was a screwup, like a similar operation under Bush (that you righties always gloss over), but there's no indication that Holder authorized it. The truth is that Issa is on a partisan witch hunt that isn't even supported by Republican leadership. He's on a fishing expedition, requesting tens of thousands of pages of sensitive law enforcement records which could jeopardize many ongoing investigations. That's why the Reagan and Bush DOJs also refused to turn over records.
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A month or so away and it is amazing how well you manage to stay on message.........................
obama.jpg
 
LaMidRighter said:
Almost every traceable weapon in the world comes from the U.S.A. not because we have the most but because we are one of the only countries that requires a serial number to be stamped on the weapon. The only reason for F&F was to have traceable weapons in the wrong hands for tracking, the reasons for such are suspect which is why this is one reason it's a problem. The second and more pressing reason is that because the first time this program was tried it was deemed to be too hard to control effectively, and the current administration tried it yet again, this time with human lives lost on both sides of the border, that is unforgiveable.

Bad guys will get their hands on weapons, no question, in any situation and in any country they always do. The thing is though that a government should never be complicit in the process.

No argument here.

Possibly better armed TBH. This does not excuse a government action allowing such to happen and with loss of life, this is the main contention. Any civilian who engaged in the F&F tactics would be an old man when they finally saw the free side of a prison gate.

I don't think most people are. But when someone says it's a "non-issue" I personally assert that that particular statement is belittlement of the situation(not accusing you of this BTW).

I think the partisans are in fact drawing lines in the sand. I am not, this whole situation is a gross abuse of power and innocent people have lost their lives because of a very stupid federal tactic, that is not a partisan problem, that is a crying shame.
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Thanks. Now I don't have to respond to "bubba". It an exercise in futility any. :lol:
 
AdamT said:
No, I just want you to answer whether you gave the same kind of heat to a president who was responsible for 4000+ American deaths and countless injuries due to incompetence that you're giving to the current president over two deaths that most likely would have occurred anyway.

chirp chirp
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As much as I hold FDR responsible for the 291,000 deaths in WWII, as much as I hold Truman responsible for 33,000 deaths in Korea, as much as I hold LBJ responsible for 50,000 deaths in Vietnam. Apparently none of them were impeached either for their legal actions.

Two deaths that would have occurred any way? The deaths are simply the consequences of an illegal program, which was lied about even existing, then Holder denied knowing about it, then admitted it occurred, and is now covering up by no cooperating with a Congressional investigation. See... Holder lied and people died too didn't they. :coffeepap:
 
AdamT said:
The fact is that there is no evidence Holder has done anything wrong.
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Fact is you're wrong....

Cornyn kinda sums it up



I'd say maybe by the end of summer Holder falls on the sword for Obama.
 
AdamT said:
No, I just want you to answer whether you gave the same kind of heat to a president who was responsible for 4000+ American deaths and countless injuries due to incompetence that you're giving to the current president over two deaths that most likely would have occurred anyway.

chirp chirp
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Why Congress approved the use of force with Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton all voting yes. Did you give them the kind of heat you give Bush?
 
Ockham said:
Fact is you're wrong....

Cornyn kinda sums it up



I'd say maybe by the end of summer Holder falls on the sword for Obama.
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Holder must have had on asbestos pants or they surly would have burst into flames.
 
AdamT said:
The fact is that there is no evidence Holder has done anything wrong. The operation was a screwup, like a similar operation under Bush (that you righties always gloss over), but there's no indication that Holder authorized it. The truth is that Issa is on a partisan witch hunt that isn't even supported by Republican leadership. He's on a fishing expedition, requesting tens of thousands of pages of sensitive law enforcement records which could jeopardize many ongoing investigations. That's why the Reagan and Bush DOJs also refused to turn over records.
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This sums it up nicely.
 
justabubba said:
since you asked, it's called pointing out the hypocrisy
the unnecessary deaths of 4000 are ignored while the death or another is highlighted, even tho in that instance the government's actions may in no way have contributed to the death - unlike the other 4000
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Heck, then lets look at all wars and relate it back to F&F.The point is, it is a poor excuse to use. So if person A does a bad thing, then person B is excused in doing the same thing. and your ok with it?
 
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Ockham said:
As much as I hold FDR responsible for the 291,000 deaths in WWII, as much as I hold Truman responsible for 33,000 deaths in Korea, as much as I hold LBJ responsible for 50,000 deaths in Vietnam. Apparently none of them were impeached either for their legal actions.
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FDR didn't start WWII, Truman didn't start the Korean War, and LBJ didn't start the Vietnam War. Bush started the Iraq War based on false and faked up intelligence.
 
AdamT said:
FDR didn't start WWII, Truman didn't start the Korean War, and LBJ didn't start the Vietnam War. Bush started the Iraq War based on false and faked up intelligence.
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and Holder was AG when the border agent was killed. Are you using the past as an excuse for Holder? If so, no wonder WO never changes. Lets keep repeating our lies and mistakes.
 
mike2810 said:
Heck, then lets look at all wars and relate it back to F&F.The point is, it is a poor excuse to use. So if person A does a bad thing, then person B is excused in doing the same thing. and your ok with it?
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It isn't an excuse; it's a hypocrisy detector. Person supports republican bad act that kills thousands of Americans but howls at the moon over democratic bad act that arguably contributed to two American deaths. Person my be motivated by partisan politics.
 
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