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Feds to Florida: halt non-citizen voter purge

First, these people have to prove they are citizens because at the time they got their licenses they were not. This isn't some purge of democrats or latinos as it was billed. It is a systematic verification of voting rights based on facts. And this is not a court of law so there is no requirement for the election commission to prove anything. All these voters have to do is send in citizenship proof (which amounts to a number and a photo copy) and it is done. It is not some difficult, time consuming process.

Second, your hypothetical is not even remotely related to reality and not worth addressing.

Well, you appear to be just making things up, as it appears that these individuals who have been determined to be guilty unti proven innocent must request and attend a hearing in order to get back their voting rights.

Daily Kos: Florida's voter purge targets 91-year-old decorated WWII vet
 
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Um, checking to see if someone over 90 years of age is still "with us" is not unreasonable at all, IMHO.

So you think that everyone in America who is over 90 should be forced to attend a hearing to prove they're still alive? WTF?! :lol:
 
Far more voter fraud takes place in the vote by mail system. They need to computerize a cross reference system from the DMV, the IRS, addresses and death records. When the typical criteria for fraudulent voters have been met the mail in voter needs to verify their identity.

Actually, validating it against those records would do absolutely no good at all in this case.

If you are a legal Resident Alien, you will have a drivers license, SSN#, tax records, address, and everything else that Citizens have. However, you still do not have the right to vote until you become a citizen.

Personally, I have long favored a form of "National ID" for this kind of purpose. Get rid of the Social Security card, it is worthless. My CostCo card is more of an ID then that is, because at least it has my photo on it. Go to a form of hard Social Security card with photo, biometric data and RFID on it, and simply have one of the fields be if you are a Resident or Citizen.

But I know this will never happen, because to many on both sides are paranoid as hell and fear any kind of "National ID". And others would believe this to be some kind of conspiracy, or an attempt to remove the rights of everybody.
 
There is no greater fail than a Republican trying to hang his hat on the achievements of past Republicans who have since abandoned the GOP to join the Democrats, which is the case here. It was the civil rights movement, and Act, that pushed so many racist (pro Jim Crow) southern Democrats into the Republican Party.

Actually, what happened in the South was a fundamental shift between generations.

Until the early 1970's, you had the Democratic "Good ole' boy" network which controlled most of the politics in the South. These were Democrats, because that was also the party that supported slavery a century before. These are the Democrats that favored Jim Crowe, segregation, and all the other things that helped to make the South almost a third world nation inside the US.

Then in the 1960's and early 1970's, things changed. The majority of younger kids who had grown up Post-WWII saw that "things are a changing", and wanted to change with them. These are the college age kids you saw marching along with Dr. King. They wanted the South to change, and realized that this would never happen under the Democratic Party in the region. It was to set in it's ways, to corrupt, and to much "good ole' boy".

So they became Republicans. It was slow at first, but by the early 1980's enough of the "old guard" Democrats had retired or died that they started to replace the old school "Southern Democrats" and change the politics of the region. And the group that came in did not resemble Bull Connor, Art Hanes, or George Wallace. These Republicans were not the "good ole' boys" who had kept Segregation and Jim Crowe in place, but a group that rose in opposition to them and everything they stood for.

And this is also the most conservative area of the country. Even most of your Democrats in this area would seem to be a solid Republican in the South. And if you took a Republican from California and dropped him in most areas of Georgia or Alabama, he will likely come off like a Democrat. Most people have never lived in the South, so have no idea what politics are like there.
 
Actually, what happened in the South was a fundamental shift between generations.

Until the early 1970's, you had the Democratic "Good ole' boy" network which controlled most of the politics in the South. These were Democrats, because that was also the party that supported slavery a century before. These are the Democrats that favored Jim Crowe, segregation, and all the other things that helped to make the South almost a third world nation inside the US.

Then in the 1960's and early 1970's, things changed. The majority of younger kids who had grown up Post-WWII saw that "things are a changing", and wanted to change with them. These are the college age kids you saw marching along with Dr. King. They wanted the South to change, and realized that this would never happen under the Democratic Party in the region. It was to set in it's ways, to corrupt, and to much "good ole' boy".

So they became Republicans. It was slow at first, but by the early 1980's enough of the "old guard" Democrats had retired or died that they started to replace the old school "Southern Democrats" and change the politics of the region. And the group that came in did not resemble Bull Connor, Art Hanes, or George Wallace. These Republicans were not the "good ole' boys" who had kept Segregation and Jim Crowe in place, but a group that rose in opposition to them and everything they stood for.

And this is also the most conservative area of the country. Even most of your Democrats in this area would seem to be a solid Republican in the South. And if you took a Republican from California and dropped him in most areas of Georgia or Alabama, he will likely come off like a Democrat. Most people have never lived in the South, so have no idea what politics are like there.

Somehow that slow, generational change resulted in Goldwater winning several southern states that hadn't gone republican in generations, ie the the civil right act had the immediate effect of forcing a large-scale defection of southern democrats to the republican party (Goldwater opposed the Act).
 
Once again, you missed my point, which from my experience is rather uncharacteristic of you.

Well, what would you say if this is your vote? That you know that voting really does not matter, because even if you get your ballot in time to return it, odds are it still will not even be counted?

And that this is a problem that has existed for decades?

In many cases, races are already decided between two candidates, and no amount of absentee votes is capable of changing the outcome. As you know, absentee ballots are counted AFTER regular votes. These are the situations in which absentee ballots often go uncounted, because it simply doesn't matter as the race has already mathematically been decided no matter how the absentee vote is split.

Actually, most times they are counted early in the morning on the day of the election. This is what the initial projections are made from, since these are the first votes tabulated. In fact, a great many times these "initial projections" (which you see on TV projection maps within an hour of polls opening) are based purely on absentee ballots are taken with a slight grain of salt, because most of them are from the elderly, a group that is more Conservative then most other groups.

This is why the California ruleing was such a big deal. These ballots need to be turned in normally a week prior to General Voting, so they can all be checked and recorded.

Now if military voters are being disenfranchised because of packages that are mailed late or whatever, then yes that's a problem. But that's not what I'm talking about here. Military/overseas absentee ballots often go uncounted not because their votes don't count or because they are actively being disenfranchised, but because the race is wide enough to already have been decided no matter what the absentee vote looks like.

Are you aware that in most elections, absentee ballots make up from 20-30% of the votes? I would hardly call that "insignificant". Absentee ballots also make up roughly 90% of US military voting, since very rarely are we ever stationed in our home state on election day. In fact, I have only been able to vote for President in person 2 times while in the Military (1984, 1992). Every other time I have been either in another state (North Carolina, Texas) or overseas (Japan, Middle East) so had to vote by mail. Most people are never lucky enough to be stationed in their home state.
 
If it was my vote I would say who cares? If the candidate is leading by 50,000 votes and there are only 1,500 mail-in ballots that haven't been counted, the tally of the mail-in ballots can't possibly change the outcome.
 
Well, what would you say if this is your vote? That you know that voting really does not matter, because even if you get your ballot in time to return it, odds are it still will not even be counted?

And that this is a problem that has existed for decades?

You're once again missing the point. It's not that my vote doesn't count. It's that it is not NECESSARY to count my vote because the race has already mathematically been decided, and the outcome can't be changed no matter what the absentee vote split is.

If Candidate A has 90,000 votes, and Candidate B has 10,000, and we know that there are a possible total of 20,000 absentee votes, then it is not necessary to tally those 20,000 because it simply doesn't change the outcome. It's a matter of simple math.

Actually, most times they are counted early in the morning on the day of the election. This is what the initial projections are made from, since these are the first votes tabulated. In fact, a great many times these "initial projections" (which you see on TV projection maps within an hour of polls opening) are based purely on absentee ballots are taken with a slight grain of salt, because most of them are from the elderly, a group that is more Conservative then most other groups.

This is why the California ruleing was such a big deal. These ballots need to be turned in normally a week prior to General Voting, so they can all be checked and recorded.

I didn't know about that, do you have a source for it? What I understand is what I stated above - absentee ballots often aren't counted if it's impossible for them to swing a particular race - if the race is close, then it's another matter.


Are you aware that in most elections, absentee ballots make up from 20-30% of the votes? I would hardly call that "insignificant". Absentee ballots also make up roughly 90% of US military voting, since very rarely are we ever stationed in our home state on election day. In fact, I have only been able to vote for President in person 2 times while in the Military (1984, 1992). Every other time I have been either in another state (North Carolina, Texas) or overseas (Japan, Middle East) so had to vote by mail. Most people are never lucky enough to be stationed in their home state.

Which elections are we talking about? State, local, federal? And obviously it depends on the particular race in question - I never said that this is universal. Like I said, I've heard of cases where absentee votes are left uncounted because it simply doesn't matter as the race has already been decided.

Now if you're talking about military votes not being counted or tallied when they should be, then that's another matter.
 
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So you think that everyone in America who is over 90 should be forced to attend a hearing to prove they're still alive? WTF?! :lol:

The story does not tell the whole truth, as it is not attend a hearing AND supply information, it is supply requested information OR request a hearing within thirty days. I am sure, that as a former military member, he has ample documentaton to supply. I agree that simply sending out "random" requests would be seen as simple harrassment, but many requests for federal database access have been denied so FL is doing what it can on its own. Perhaps rather than try to prevent FL from purging "valid" voters the DOJ could help FL to identify them more efficiently. ;-)
 
Somehow that slow, generational change resulted in Goldwater winning several southern states that hadn't gone republican in generations, ie the the civil right act had the immediate effect of forcing a large-scale defection of southern democrats to the republican party (Goldwater opposed the Act).

Yes, and no.

Barry Goldwater supported every single Civil Rights Act placed in front of him during his time in the Senate. And he supported the original Senate version of the bill. However, between the original bill and what it had become over the course of the legislative process, it had changed. He had long supported Civil Rights, he simply felt that the newest version of that bill had gone to far, in taking away fundamental rights from states without a set time frame, and without any kind of easy system to get out from under them.

And remember, the "Deep South" has been among the most Conservative areas of the nation, even when it was held by the "good old boy" Democrats. During this time period however the Democrats made a huge fundamental shift in it's own policies. It went wildly Liberal, and most of the Conservative Democrats (I am talking the individuals, not the politicians) now found themselves at odds with the national party.

So given a choice between Lyndon Johnson (and his Great Society), it is natural that a lot went to other parties. Bluedog, Dixiecrat, the region started to split itself politically. The "Old Guard" continued to try and fight it out as Democrats, but found themselves loosing elections against younger Republicans with new ideas and without all the Segregation era baggage.

And this has only become more noticeable in the last decades. As the Democratic party becomes more and more Liberal, on the National level you find more and more Republicans in these offices. But interestingly enough, on the local levels, things are still either evenly split or more Democrat. Of course, a State Assembly person does not have to please a National Party, odds are the national party does not even know they exist.

This is why you get the interesting politics of a lot of states that are traditionally "Conservative". Idaho, Mississippi, Alabama, Utah, Arizona, states like these produce politicians that most of the nation really can't understand. Even Democrats from these areas normally come off as Conservative as Republicans in most other states. And when I moved from California to Alabama, I noticed just how odd this was. I seemed much more "Radical" then the majority of Democrats in the area. I remember trying to arrange a rally for Darfur, and everybody looked at me like I was nuts. And I was always looked at like I was this crazy California Hippie (complete with long hair and beard), who even as a "Conservative" was to radical for the local politicians.

Of course, I also admit the local politics were moderately corrupt, with "good ole' boys" who owned large areas of land in one area of town, so refused to grant any kinds of permits to revitalize another area of town, because it might negatively impact their land value.
 
Well, you appear to be just making things up, as it appears that these individuals who have been determined to be guilty unti proven innocent must request and attend a hearing in order to get back their voting rights.

Daily Kos: Florida's voter purge targets 91-year-old decorated WWII vet

I applaud that you finally found part of the letter sent to these folks, but your information is incomplete and false by it's deliberate omissions. There are lots of articles about this, and most of them include the quote from Internicola (the veteran himself):

Internicola says he was "flabbergasted."

"To me, it's like an insult," he says. "They sent me a form to fill out. And I filled out the form and I sent it back to them with a copy of my discharge paper and a copy of my tour of duty in the ETO, which is the European Theater of Operations."

He obviously didn't need to attend any hearing. In fact, the other story linked to from your thinkprogress link says the same thing, in this case a 50 year old woman - she sent her info in. Thinkprogress omitted info and has made the process of verification seem to be something it's not. You bought into their game.
 
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Both sides seem too partisan to want a completely fair election. In this particular case, my concern isn't bumping off non-eligible voters, in fact I support the idea, but when American citizens are denied their right to vote then I have a cause for concern.

If one American citizen is denied his voice by having his/her voice drowned out by fraudulent votes, we need to act to correct that.
 
If one American citizen is denied his voice by having his/her voice drowned out by fraudulent votes, we need to act to correct that.

How about one American citizen being denied his voice by not being allowed to vote in the first place? Or how about one American being told not to vote and being told a lie in order to make sure he doesn't? (i.e. "if you have an unpaid parking ticket you are ineligible to vote, if you vote it's a felony!" or "Your candidate already has this in the bag, no need to go vote")


"Drowned out by fraudulent votes" is a laugh. The actual percentage of votes being cast fraudulently is quite small. Yes, steps should be taken to ensure an honest election process, but not at the expense of disenfranchising legitimate voters.
 
How about one American citizen being denied his voice by not being allowed to vote in the first place? Or how about one American being told not to vote and being told a lie in order to make sure he doesn't? (i.e. "if you have an unpaid parking ticket you are ineligible to vote, if you vote it's a felony!" or "Your candidate already has this in the bag, no need to go vote")


"Drowned out by fraudulent votes" is a laugh. The actual percentage of votes being cast fraudulently is quite small. Yes, steps should be taken to ensure an honest election process, but not at the expense of disenfranchising legitimate voters.

We don't know that because many states have no measures to prevent fraudulent voting and few means to catch those casting them and dont work hard to enforce penalties when they are caught.
 
I could not give 2 dimes about "minorities". All I care about is seeing those not entitled to vote purged from the roles. Period. I do not care if they are legal resident aliens from Bolivia, illegal aliens from Germany, or convicted pedophiles. If they do not belong on the roles, purge them. Period.

And that is the reall issue, is it not? Purging people who should not be on the roles? Myself and others are not trying to make this a racial issue, you are.
Based upon GOP history, the issue is purging people who would vote Democrat.

Historically, in the South, that has been a racial issue.

As to the current issue, you'd have to be able to read Rick Scott's mind to know what the real issue is. You could ask him, of course, but do you think you'd get an honest answer?
 
And that makes huge news as "disenfrancisement". Meanwhile, huge numbers of military votes are routinely never counted.

Truth On Target: Military Votes Not Counted 98,000 Lost Military Ballots
71% of Military Ballots not counted in the 2010 election. [ArthurK]

This is an outrage [...]
No, it's false. From your first link:

It is unclear from the major new sources, whether 98,000 ballots were mailed overseas and are considered “lost” because voters abroad decided not to exercise their vote, or if the 98,000 were “mailed out,” meaning mailed to the U.S. from abroad, and known not to have been received by election officials. From reporting, it appears the ballots are lost. Here’s the exact wording:

It said that of 441,000 absentee ballots requested by eligible voters living abroad — mainly active-duty and reserve troops — more than 98,000 were “lost” ballots that were mailed out but never received by election officials.

Clearly the blogger doesn't have a clue (and doesn't know how to use quotes).

From your second link:

Looks like ballots aren't making it to the troops, they're not filling out the ones they get or the ballots aren't making it back to the states.
This guy doesn't know WTF is going on either. However, he at least provides the quote that makes your claim a lie:

blogger said:
Most of the states did a good job counting the ballots they actually got back - the overall acceptance rate was more than 94 percent.
The misunderstood report is here: http://mvpproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/MVPProject_study_download.pdf

Well, what would you say if this is your vote? That you know that voting really does not matter, because even if you get your ballot in time to return it, odds are it still will not even be counted?
Major falsehood, as we see above
 
Well, you appear to be just making things up, as it appears that these individuals who have been determined to be guilty unti proven innocent must request and attend a hearing in order to get back their voting rights.

Daily Kos: Florida's voter purge targets 91-year-old decorated WWII vet
Suprise, suprise, the Daily Kooks lied again: Florida Defends Voter Purge, Accuses DOJ Of Protecting Illegal Voters | TPMMuckraker

So the truth is:
The voter gets a letter
They can respond via mail OR they can request an in person hearing
If the letter is undeliverable the names are published in the paper to notify them of their need to address the issue
At the end of the 30 day response period the board reviews each case
IN ANY CASE, THE VOTER CAN STILL VOTE...I REPEAT...THE VOTER CAN STILL VOTE...EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN DENIED...and prove after the election that they had the legal right to vote.
 
If the state of Florida said that citizens with IDs could collect $500.00, I'd bet good money there'd be a run on IDs.
 
I applaud that you finally found part of the letter sent to these folks, but your information is incomplete and false by it's deliberate omissions. There are lots of articles about this, and most of them include the quote from Internicola (the veteran himself):



He obviously didn't need to attend any hearing. In fact, the other story linked to from your thinkprogress link says the same thing, in this case a 50 year old woman - she sent her info in. Thinkprogress omitted info and has made the process of verification seem to be something it's not. You bought into their game.

You are mistaken. In fact a linked article shows a scan of an actual letter that was sent out. The letter provides no option to mail in proof. The letter states that the recipient must schedule a HEARING where they will have the opportunity to present proof of citizenship, or else they lose their voting privilege.

letter_black_CROP.jpg
 
How about one American citizen being denied his voice by not being allowed to vote in the first place? Or how about one American being told not to vote and being told a lie in order to make sure he doesn't? (i.e. "if you have an unpaid parking ticket you are ineligible to vote, if you vote it's a felony!" or "Your candidate already has this in the bag, no need to go vote")


"Drowned out by fraudulent votes" is a laugh. The actual percentage of votes being cast fraudulently is quite small. Yes, steps should be taken to ensure an honest election process, but not at the expense of disenfranchising legitimate voters.

Amazing that all of those "disenfranchised" folks have no trouble at all getting alcohol, tobacco, firearms, ammunition, fishing/hunting licenses, library books, welfare, food stamps or when cashing lotto tickets and checks, that all require that "ever elusive" state issued photo ID, that is ONLY a hardship for voting (darn thing be rights here yeserday, next to my 40 and blunt, where it be on votin' days, I jus don't knows). ;-)
 
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Congrats Adam T, you just proved him, me and Florida right and the DOJ wrong. The letter clearly outlines everything the must be done and that the State and County are following the guidelines in the link I posted above. Further, it never states you must appear before the board, just that the board will be presented with the evidence.

All this outrage for nothing. Well, not nothing, lost fraudulant votes that Dems assume will swing their way.
 
You are mistaken. In fact a linked article shows a scan of an actual letter that was sent out. The letter provides no option to mail in proof. The letter states that the recipient must schedule a HEARING where they will have the opportunity to present proof of citizenship, or else they lose their voting privilege.

View attachment 67129061

That's simply YOUR story, that conflicts with many others, but your "trusted source" is SO much more reliable than any actual words of experience offered by your OWN initial 91 year old "proof" subject. You just won't quit, ever, no matter what any one says or shows you. If only you are right, then why don't you get on the horn with that poor 91 year old liar, and straighten him out, before he loses his voting rights. Get real!
 
That's simply YOUR story, that conflicts with many others, but your "trusted source" is SO much more reliable than any actual words of experience offered by your OWN initial 91 year old "proof" subject. You just won't quit, ever, no matter what any one says or shows you. If only you are right, then why don't you get on the horn with that poor 91 year old liar, and straighten him out, before he loses his voting rights. Get real!

Dude, it is a SCAN OF THE ACTUAL FREAKING' LETTER!! :lol:

Perhaps the gentleman did send in some information, but that is clearly not an option that the letter provides. The options presented are:

1. Admit you're not a citizen and be slagged off the rolls;

2. Request a hearing to present proof that you are a citizen.

Period.

How do we know that a hearing is required?

Under section 98.075, Florida Statutes, a law which has been duly precleared by the Department of Justice, a supervisor of elections must take the following actions before any person’s name may be removed from the statewide voter registration system:

• Notify the registered voter of his or her potential ineligibility by certified mail, return receipt requested, including any documentation upon which the potential ineligibility is based;
• Allow the registered voter 30 days to respond by admitting or denying the accuracy of the information underlying the potential ineligibility;
Provide the registered voter a hearing, if requested, for the purpose of determining eligibility;
• If the mailed notice is returned as undeliverable, publish notice in a newspaper of general circulation in the county where the voter was last registered, with an additional 30-day opportunity for the registered voter to resolve the matter;
• At the conclusion of the notice and hearing process, make a final determination of the voter’s eligibility based on a preponderance of the evidence before the supervisor of elections;
• Allow for an additional appeal of any determination of ineligibility before a state circuit court.
 
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