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Vermont first state to ban fracking

Do you understand liquid displacement? I'm thinking you don't.

I understand that you were wrong and I'm thinking you do too.
 
Just tossing this out there, Vermont sees a lot of tourist trade as an unspoiled wilderness type of state. Having the heavy industry of fracking around would decidedly mar that imagery associated with the state. I can definitely see this entering into the decision that they made.

:twocents:

After the wells are completed, this is what you will see.

APC_0604.jpg


There isn't much damage to the scenery.
 
What are the long term risks?

I'm sorry to keep asking that, but I want to prove a point.

If you would be good enough to supply us with the list of chemicals and the amounts, we can get you that answer.
 
I understand that you were wrong and I'm thinking you do too.

I'm not wrong, because I have enough sense to know that when a well is produced, any residual water in the formation is forces out because THE WELLBORE IS UNDER PRESSURE!!! It ain't rocket science, my friend.

When the well testers complete the well...here, you can learn who the well testers are:Well Testing, Schlumberger

They have to pump the water completely out of the formation, so the product can flow. i.e. displacement. It's like having air, or water in the fuel system of a diesel engine. Before the engine will run, the air and water has to be removed.

I understand all this because I know the difference between a BOP stack and a v-door.
 
If you would be good enough to supply us with the list of chemicals and the amounts, we can get you that answer.

I already have. Try and keep up, please. Thank you.
 
Policy should be based on fact not fear.

Which facts? The facts by companies who have a lot to gain from from fracturing or the facts by those who see this as a actual concern?
 
Which facts? The facts by companies who have a lot to gain from from fracturing or the facts by those who see this as a actual concern?

The facts that point out that frac'ing isn't as hazardous as some folks are trying to make out.
 
After the wells are completed, this is what you will see.

APC_0604.jpg


There isn't much damage to the scenery.

Yet they are more than willing to destroy 7,025 acres of pristine desert landscape and Native American sacred ground for a bankrupt solar project.

Blythe Solar Power Project

blythe geoglyphs - Google Search

It's a travesty and an assault against Native Americans that any of the Blythe geoglyphs should be desecrated in this fashion. I guess the Chemehuevi, the Fort Mojave, the Quechan tribes don't have big money to stop them.

Blythe Solar Power Project La Cuna de Aztlan Sacred Sites
 
Don't worry, nobody is pumping toxic chemicals into the ground.

Even if they did, they would send their Oompa Loompas down there to scrub everything clean afterwards.

Hydrochloric Acid
Glutaraldehyde
Quaternary Ammonium Chloride
Quaternary Ammonium Chloride
Tetrakis Hydroxymethyl-Phosphonium Sulfate
Ammonium Persulfate
Sodium Chloride
Magnesium Peroxide
Magnesium Oxide
Calcium Chloride
Choline Chloride
Tetramethyl ammonium chloride
Sodium Chloride
Isopropanol
Methanol
Formic Acid
Acetaldehyde
Petroleum Distillate
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate
Potassium Metaborate
Triethanolamine Zirconate
Sodium Tetraborate
Boric Acid
Zirconium Complex
Borate Salts
Ethylene Glycol
Methanol
Polyacrylamide
Petroleum Distillate
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate
Methanol
Ethylene Glycol
Guar Gum
Petroleum Distillate
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate
Methanol
Polysaccharide Blend
Ethylene Glycol
Citric Acid
Acetic Acid
Thioglycolic Acid
Sodium Erythorbate
Lauryl Sulfate
Isopropanol
Ethylene Glycol
Sodium Hydroxide
Potassium Hydroxide
Acetic Acid
Sodium Carbonate
Potassium Carbonate
Copolymer of Acrylamide and Sodium Acrylate
Sodium Polycarboxylate
Phosphonic Acid Salt
Lauryl Sulfate
Ethanol
Naphthalene
Methanol
Isopropyl Alcohol
Butoxyethanol
What Chemicals Are Used | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry

Good old mother earth...... what would you do if someone was raping your mother ?
 
I already have. Try and keep up, please. Thank you.

No, what you provided was a list of chemicals that are sometimes used in fracking. There is no requirement that companies divulge the chemicals they are actually using.
 
No, what you provided was a list of chemicals that are sometimes used in fracking. There is no requirement that companies divulge the chemicals they are actually using.

This is actually untrue. There are disclosure requirements (at least in states with any significant production). Most states use FracFocus.

Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry
 
This is actually untrue. There are disclosure requirements (at least in states with any significant production). Most states use FracFocus.

Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry

The disclosure requirements are voluntary and not comprehensive.

Voluntary, Partial Listing of Chemicals

In April 2011, the Ground Water Protection Council, in conjunction with the industry, began releasing well-by-well lists of hydraulic fracturing chemicals at [11].[101] Disclosure is still on a voluntary basis. Lists do not include all substances used; a complete listing of the specific chemical formulation of additives used in hydraulic fracturing operations is still not currently made available to landowners, neighbors, local officials, or health care providers, let alone the general public. This practice is under scrutiny.[102] Two studies released in 2009, one by the U.S. Department of Energy and the other released by the Ground Water Protection Council, address hydraulic fracturing safety concerns. Chemicals which can be used in the fracturing fluid include kerosene, benzene, toluene, xylene, and formaldehyde.[103][103]

Notable omissions. Lists provided by companies do not include many radioactive tracers used in hydraulic fracturing, such as Antimony-121, Antimony-122, Antimony-123, Antimony-124, Antimony-125, Antimony-126, Antimony-127, Chromium-51, Cobalt-57, Cobalt-58, Cobalt-60, Gold-198, Iodine-127, Iodine-128, Iodine-129, Iodine-130, Iodine-131 (one of the most commonly named in patents of the process, with a half life of 8.04 days), Iridium-192, Iron-59, Krypton-85, Lanthanum-140, Potassium-39 (activated to Potassium-40), Potassium-41 (activated to Potassium-42), Potassium-43, Rubidium-86, Scandium-45, Scandium-46, Scandium-47, Scandium-48, Silver-110, Strontium-85, Xenon-133, Zinc-65, and Zirconium-95. Several are typically combined and injected together. Their half lifes range from 40.2 hours (Lanthanum-140) to 5.27 years (Cobalt-60).[104][38][39][40]

Hydraulic fracturing in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
The whole point of hydraulic fracturing is to increase the permeability of rocks to release the natural gas in them, often with high pressure fluids. Those fluids are making it easier for themselves to get out into the broader rock formations. Through the process of chemical osmosis, areas with a high concentration of a given substance will tend to migrate to an area of lesser concentration, and the osmotic process can create pressures of its own. I don't see why anyone would think that it wouldn't be at least possible that chemicals used in fracking could make their way in to local groundwater.
 
This thread reminds of the Penn and Teller episode when they went around a massive environmental protest in DC convincing 100s of people to sign a petition banning "di-hydrogen oxide."

Lets got through this big list of scary sounding chemicals and look at their common uses...shall we:

Hydrochloric Acid-multiple uses but the main component in Gastric acid....what you body creates to digest food. Scary stuff there.
Glutaraldehyde - used to disinfect medical and dental equipment as well as treat warts! Heebee jeebies on that one.
Quaternary Ammonium Chloride - main component in some anitbacterial soaps.
Tetrakis Hydroxymethyl-Phosphonium Sulfate - flame retardent commonly used on textiles and cotton products.
Ammonium Persulfate - etching liquid, make microchips with it
Sodium Chloride - this might the scariest one of all......salt.
Magnesium Peroxide-proven bioremediation agent (helps remove toxins), used to treat farm soil so ends up in food
Magnesium Oxide - component of TUMS (chronic heartburn...love me some Mg Peroxide!)
Calcium Chloride - lots of good stuff, deicing, food preservative, fish tank additive, treats wastewater to allow drainage into the environment
Choline Chloride - common GNC supplement....this one terrifies me!
Tetramethyl ammonium chloride-not whole lot on this one but the MSDS indicates there not much health concern over it
Sodium Chloride -well, this one is sooooo scary they used it twice! Salt again.
Isopropanol - from medical to fuel additive (drying agent)
Methanol - this one is actually a little toxic but would require 4 fl. oz (= two shots) of pure methanol to have a lethal does.
Formic Acid - another antibacterial agent, used in feed and fertilzer...prevents e.coli
Acetaldehyde - found in Marijuana smoke! Know some of you will love that!
Petroleum Distillate - this one is kind of sneaky as its the general term for several other chems on this list.
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate- same as above
Potassium Metaborate - commonly found in welding flux
Triethanolamine Zirconate - used in printing ink
Sodium Tetraborate - laundry soap
Boric Acid - used for emergency first aid eyewash
Zirconium Complex - this could mean host of different substances but zirconium is used to make face diamonds.
Borate Salts - Borax laundry soap again!
Ethylene Glycol - antifreeze
Methanol - I'm wondering if these repeats occur to make this big scary list longer.
Polyacrylamide - flocculate, used in wastewater treatment before putting back into the environment
Petroleum Distillate - this ones so nice they listed it twice!
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate- dar
Methanol- dar
Ethylene Glycol-dar
Guar Gum - damn...they use this for a lot including our food.
Petroleum Distillate- dar
Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate-dar
Methanol dar
Polysaccharide Blend - one for you ladies! Used in hair removal wax!
Ethylene Glycol-dar
Citric Acid - HELLO!!! Orange juice anyone!
Acetic Acid - used in pickles...yumm
Thioglycolic Acid - used in perms.
Sodium Erythorbate - an anitoxidant found in food
Lauryl Sulfate - SHAMPOO
Isopropanol - air freshener
Ethylene Glycol - dar
Sodium Hydroxide - used to remove peal on cocoa beans....so WILLY WONKA is involved!
Potassium Hydroxide - soft hand soap
Acetic Acid - dar
Sodium Carbonate - for you starving college kids....RAMEN NOODLES!
Potassium Carbonate - used in WINE
Copolymer of Acrylamide and Sodium Acrylate - FAKE SNOW!! In a nutshell...plastic
Sodium Polycarboxylate - dishwasher soap
Phosphonic Acid Salt - used in medicine to treat bone disorders
Lauryl Sulfate - dar
Ethanol - Bourbon anyone...primary ingredient in booze
Naphthalene - mothballs
Methanol - dar
Isopropyl Alcohol - dar
Butoxyethanol - another ingredient commonly used in soap.
 
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Why yes, what a surprise - not!

We have someone posting a partial list of the chemicals, there are over 750, that are known to be used in fracking. Chemicals so common we encounter them everyday - with one small problem not mentioned in the attempt to show how 'safe' these good little chemicals are - concentration levels. A substance that is safe to use when diluted may well be toxic at higher concentration levels.

for instance - hydrochloric acid is found in stomach acid where it may at elevated levels cause damage to the lining of the stomach and to the esophagus. Since 1988, hydrochloric acid has been listed as a Table II precursor under the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances because of its use in the production of heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine.

Glutaraldehyde is a toxic chemical that is used as a cold sterilant to disinfect and clean heat-sensitive medical, surgical and dental equipment.

Quaternary Ammonium Chloride is used in anti-bacterial soaps at a concentration level of 0.08 to 0.02%

Just a couple of examples. The problem for those who claim fracking is safe and provide us with a list of the "common" chemicals to be found in the fluids used for the fracking process - the companies have consistently refused to divulge just which chemicals they use and in what concentrations.
 
Why yes, what a surprise - not!

We have someone posting a partial list of the chemicals, there are over 750, that are known to be used in fracking. Chemicals so common we encounter them everyday - with one small problem not mentioned in the attempt to show how 'safe' these good little chemicals are - concentration levels. A substance that is safe to use when diluted may well be toxic at higher concentration levels.

for instance - hydrochloric acid is found in stomach acid where it may at elevated levels cause damage to the lining of the stomach and to the esophagus. Since 1988, hydrochloric acid has been listed as a Table II precursor under the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances because of its use in the production of heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine.

Glutaraldehyde is a toxic chemical that is used as a cold sterilant to disinfect and clean heat-sensitive medical, surgical and dental equipment.

Quaternary Ammonium Chloride is used in anti-bacterial soaps at a concentration level of 0.08 to 0.02%

Just a couple of examples. The problem for those who claim fracking is safe and provide us with a list of the "common" chemicals to be found in the fluids used for the fracking process - the companies have consistently refused to divulge just which chemicals they use and in what concentrations.

What's the secret Coca-Cola recipe?

Don't get me wrong. I understand your point, but you cannot expect the petroleum industry to play by rules you aren't willing to implement in other industries. Industries that are pumping chemicals into our environment and blood stream on a daily basis.

Frankly, a greater threat is posed by herbicides and pesticides.
 
I thought righties favored state rights to determine their own fate?
 
I thought righties favored state rights to determine their own fate?

Apparently they do. And there are consequences to self-determination. If Vermont got cut off or charged double, well then, that's what happens. Live by State's rights, Die by State's rights.
 
Vermont is entitled to go its own way. Each state should go its own way. Living and dying by state's rights is just fine. Let self-determination reign.
 
Vermont is entitled to go its own way. Each state should go its own way. Living and dying by state's rights is just fine. Let self-determination reign.

It is and when several years down the road, a brutal winter hits the NE and heating oil skyrockets, what do you think they're be able to do?
 
I already have. Try and keep up, please. Thank you.

And where oh where would that exactly be?

I saw a list of most often used chemicals but there was no mention of the quantity of what was used. And the list was incomplete.



Two pills may help my pain. Twentyfive may kill me.

What is the dosage here? Without that information, this is fairly meaningless data.
 
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It is and when several years down the road, a brutal winter hits the NE and heating oil skyrockets, what do you think they're be able to do?

Let the people of Vermont figure out what is in their best interests, and how to save themselves from freezing. The federal leviathan is problem no. one facing this generation.
 
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