Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

j-mac · May 20, 2012

roguenuke said:
Because they just lost a large number of teachers because of a policy issue. They also have students who support those teachers and may just look for another college come next term. This is a double blow against them because now they need to find new teachers, who are willing to abide by their standards completely, and they may have to also worry about less money from students. Having a lower budget when you are searching to replace employees is not going to be a good thing.

Yes, valuable life lesson...Give up your values, and principles when it is too hard to uphold....Great.

I don't believe it was necessary and that it will hurt them and their students' education.

Oh, YOU don't believe it is necessary....Well then, it is settled...Tell me, does the board of shorter know that they need to run their decisions by you?

Except for the rest of that point. There are not a lot of college level professors looking for jobs.

Well, I have no idea if that is true or not...But it seems to me that they will do just fine.

On the contrary, many of those teachers were actually Baptists. They say so on their site explaining their decision.

SaveOurShorter

Well, I read that statement, and frankly it sounds like a bunch of whining from tenured blowhards trying frantically to remain relevant, and rewrite their place at the University.

It is not equally likely to make the college stronger if they are at risk of losing their accreditation or even just the quality of their teaching. College is mainly about teaching students academics, not about ensuring the staff follow certain religious beliefs.

You want a secular education, go to a secular collage. Don't get in a religious one and try to change their way of doing things to suit you.

Not nonsense. There are many younger people who believe that getting a good education is more important than a University, even a religious one, from keeping their staff from believing as they wish and doing things that have no impact on their school or its reputation.

Then find a better fit that jives with your values...Why get in and change it there....?

Many of the students did not sign up to attend a school where their teachers are forced to give up their own values or hide just to be able to work. This "Lifestyle Statement" is a very new thing and never before existed in this way for this school.

You mean they didn't know it was a Baptist school?

If the students feel that they are not going to get the same level of education as they were before due to this or their parents feel this way, then it could certainly affect the students' decision to stay at or even go to that school.

Yep, and it may attract others looking as a better fit to their own values...Who are you to say?

j-mac

Somerville · May 20, 2012

j-mac said:
See, I view this in a different way. For some time now, as an example Notre Dame has been struggling with the secular representation sitting on their board of directors as well, as I suspect many of these religious based institutions of higher learning are finding increasing secular involvement is attempting to change their fundamental structure.

No real surprise that in this time of Obama's war on religion, that instances like this would crop up.

j-mac

"Obama's war on religion!!!?"

dabateman · May 20, 2012

upsideguy said:
Still within the rights of a private institution. Not much different than a Company re-writing its employee handbook, except this is a bit of that on steroids. However, I find no problem with a Baptist institution insisting that its doctrine be followed on and off the field.

They should have done that from the beginning. Now they have created reliance issues.

roguenuke · May 20, 2012

j-mac said:
Yes, valuable life lesson...Give up your values, and principles when it is too hard to uphold....Great.

Those haven't always been the principles of that college. And they also haven't always been the principles of most Christians. The college is the one changing its principles and values, not the staff or students.

j-mac said:
Well, I have no idea if that is true or not...But it seems to me that they will do just fine.

They have lost over half of their staff to this and will likely lose more. It is not likely that "they will do just fine". They are at risk of losing their accreditation.

The school usually has about 100 full-time faculty.

Faculty leave Baptist school, Shorter University, over “lifestyle” statement - The Washington Post

j-mac said:
Well, I read that statement, and frankly it sounds like a bunch of whining from tenured blowhards trying frantically to remain relevant, and rewrite their place at the University.

How you feel their comments come across does not change the truth of the fact that most of those staff members were Christian, not atheists, as you tried to say earlier.

j-mac said:
You want a secular education, go to a secular collage. Don't get in a religious one and try to change their way of doing things to suit you.

You do realize that there is a difference between wanting a secular education and wanting a college to stick to their traditions, not restrictions that a church decides to place on them after 100 and some years of operation? This wasn't a Bible college. It was a college of mainly music and fine arts.

RN-T.com - LETTER TO THE EDITOR Shorter grad addresses board of trustees

j-mac said:
Then find a better fit that jives with your values...Why get in and change it there....?

This change to their policy just came out in the last 8 months. Most of those students who are now attending were accepted prior to the proposed change. They aren't trying to change anything. They are trying to keep things the way they were when they applied for this college.

j-mac said:
You mean they didn't know it was a Baptist school?

Because it wasn't one before now. At least that wasn't the image they projected.

j-mac said:
Yep, and it may attract others looking as a better fit to their own values...Who are you to say?

Not likely. College enrollment is up but private colleges, like this one, generally cost more to attend.

Plus, it isn't just those things I've already mentioned that they will need to worry about. This is a small college. At least some of their money comes from gifts from alumni. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of alumni who are not happy about this change of policy Shorter is experiencing. That will affect their donations from alumni, likely negatively. The money they get from the Baptist Church is a very small amount of their total budget. That means they also may need to up tuition. Sure this is all speculation, but these are very real possibilities, particularly so since many younger people prefer more freedom, not religious based restrictions.

justabubba · May 20, 2012

j-mac said:
See, I view this in a different way. For some time now, as an example Notre Dame has been struggling with the secular representation sitting on their board of directors as well, as I suspect many of these religious based institutions of higher learning are finding increasing secular involvement is attempting to change their fundamental structure.

No real surprise that in this time of Obama's war on religion, that instances like this would crop up.

j-mac

please explain your Obama's war on religion comment
what actions has he done which constitutes war on religion

Harry Guerrilla · May 20, 2012

j-mac said:
See, I view this in a different way. For some time now, as an example Notre Dame has been struggling with the secular representation sitting on their board of directors as well, as I suspect many of these religious based institutions of higher learning are finding increasing secular involvement is attempting to change their fundamental structure.

No real surprise that in this time of Obama's war on religion, that instances like this would crop up.

j-mac

There is enough hyperbole in this thread already.
No need to add this crap.

Shadow Serious · May 20, 2012

notquiteright said:
vendur-

The Taliwackers didn't start out loping heads off and beating slattern women, they stood for restoring traditional values that had been suppressed by the Soviets. Those bad ol' Commies had dared to educate women and place them in the workforce. Bad ol' Commies!

I think that the time has come to make an analog of Godwin's Law in which when discussing religious institutions requirements on their employees that the longer it discussed the probability that the Taliban and sharia law would be mentioned and with the observation that it weakens the argument of one who uses it without consideration.

I can see where the private sector is sacred crowd wants the 'marketplace' to decide discrimination outside of the government. It is an attractive siren. I hesitate to give it too much credit for being a steady hand, it's track record isn't the best. For large segments of the society it works fairly well, women getting the vote was a bit slow but at least it got done. Prohibition not so better but corrected once organized crime was well established.

Sorry, Jim Crow was a institution mandated by the government. Prejudice can be overcome if it is NOT institutionalized.:mrgreen:

After all prejudice was overcome against Asian people. Prejudice was mostly overcome against Jews. Both of these did not have government sanction like it was aginst the Blacks.

But for smaller groups it lacks the clout. I can't get on board with blacks first being freed and then a century later gaining something close to an end to outright discrimination if we relied on just the private sector to guide us to that better place.

Sorry, to end prejudice, it starts small from the bottom up not from the top down. The actions from the Federal Government against Segregation in the southern states was the end result of decades of grass root activity. It would not have happened without substantial popular support.

I am of the mind it doesn't matter what one does in the privacy of their home so no one not even a religious organization gets to dictate the private life of an employee. If the employee is also an follower, no problem. If the employee creates a major scandal then a very carefully worded morals clause sounds enforceable, but not a blanket prohibition.

Sorry, this is not just an employee, but are instructors who teach both the subject that they are experienced in and also are considered moral examples to the students there. The institution is religious in nature so requires a higher standard than from some community college.

Shadow Serious · May 20, 2012

Bob Blaylock said:
It seems that there ought to be an extension of Godwin's Law, that applies to gratuitous comparisons with the Taliban and other instances of extreme radical forms of Islam. Such comparisons are certainly becoming more common these days than Hitler/Nazi references are, for the purpose that Godwin's Law was intended to address.

Sorry I did not catch your suggestion before I posted the same idea.

Shadow Serious · May 20, 2012

iliveonramen said:
That's not entirely true...a lot of good Catholic Universities pride themselves in very good insitituions of higher learning that would see a revolt by students/alumni/professors if they tried to pull this crap.

Yeah, but Catholics had more than a millennia of practice with that. How long has the Southern Baptists had? At best 150 years or so maybe.

dontworrybehappy · May 20, 2012

justabubba said:
please explain your Obama's war on religion comment
what actions has he done which constitutes war on religion

Here is a really good video about it. It answers your question. Don't worry, its balanced, explains both sides.

Obama's 'War on Religion' Controversy (VIDEO)

Grant · May 20, 2012

justabubba said:
please explain your Obama's war on religion comment
what actions has he done which constitutes war on religion

Two were reducing charitable donation deductions, (defeated in his proposed budget 99-0) and attempting to interfere in the firing of a religious teacher (defeated by the Supreme Court 9-0).

His 20 years with Rev. Wright suggests his interest in genuine religion is minimal.

Faculty leaving University in droves over statement they must sign [W:89]

j-mac

Somerville

dabateman

Active member

roguenuke

justabubba

long standing member

Harry Guerrilla

Shadow Serious

Shadow Serious

Shadow Serious

dontworrybehappy

Grant