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Mexico is just getting worse

Looking beyond the aspect of drug legalization for the moment: the principle behind the idea that we should dictate our policies based on how it might negatively effect other nations would lead us to bowing to other's problems rather than trying to continue to uphold stability in our own nation and control our own issues.

At what point would we stop doing that? If we started ending policies because of how it might affect other nations then at what point do we stop being a nation to ourselves and our own values and instead start fussing more over how we affect others?

Where do we then draw the line? How much should we let other nations weigh in on our beliefs, values, laws and regulations?

The 'legs' that such a policy-change could grow is the crux of the reason why I oppose starting those types of policy reversals. don't get me wrong - I've read quite a bit into how it negatively affects other nations (not just Mexico) - and it's not just resulting in violence but in other areas it's resulted in the drug-trade being the only employment for young men - and entire families have been lost purely for the fact taht the young man leaves home to find a job = works for a drug cartel = becomes and addict = his money home to family stops = the suffer.

I'm well aware . . . and while very tempting to want to support a reversal just to enable these nations to pick up the pieces - I just can't do it at the perile of our OWN nation.

No man is an island unto itself.

No nation is either.

What we do affects others and what others do affects us.

I understand the principle of your idea, but, with all due respect, reality still reigns supreme.
 
You wanna see **** get even worse in this country? Lets get everyone addicted to meth, crack and heroin. It has worked so well for those on it. Drugs are illegal for a reason.
 
They could deal with their issues IF THEY WANTED TO really get it done - but they've let it go for SO long that it's just exploded.

Errr, no. That's not how it happened.

What happened was that ever since the 1970's, the U.S. federal government decided to crack down on recreational drugs. Prior to the 1970's, marijuana, while illegal, wasn't prosecuted quite so harshly. However, Nixon decided to up the ante as a way to split the Democratic Party voters between blue collar workers and the youth hippie movement on his Law and Order campaign.

During the 1980's, Reagan increased the War on Drugs even further. The reason for this was because of the proliferation of crack cocaine throughout the inner-city urban areas of the U.S. Crack was invented because it was a greater concentration of cocaine in a smaller physical sample which meant that drug dealers could get more bang for their buck by selling it.

Because Central America and South America are natural regions where the plants used in the production of cocaine are grown, the War on Drugs also gave Reagan the causus belli to intervene in those countries. The reason why is because those countries are also prone to socialist and communist movements that threaten the more capitalistic regimes. Because socialist and communist paramilitary movements in Central and South America use the drug trade to fund their activities, Reagan was able to connect them to drug cartels and, in the eyes of the public, was able to justify military intervention in Latin America.

What has been forgotten about the American public, though, is the reason why Marxist guerilla movements have been so prevalent in Central and South America. It is because during the late 1800's and early-to-mid 1900's the U.S. government used its military to defend the business interests of international corporations established down there who profited by supressing the workers who inhabited those countries. These military occupations were known as the Banana Wars, and his experiences fighting in these conflict led Major General Smedley Butler, USMC, to write a pamphlet titled "War Is A Racket" in the 1930's that detailed the military-industrial-congressional complex that led to the U.S. military being used to protect the profits of multinational businesses.

This was why the leftist paramilitaries wound up being established in Latin America, and why Latin America has a strong history of socialist and communist policies - it's because of the abuses they suffered by U.S. corporations about 150 years ago.

Now while these leftist guerilla groups may have started out as political rebellions, they have since evolved into drug cartels out to make profits for themselves.

You see, by keeping recreational drugs illegal drug cartels have a monopoly on the recreational drug trade. And these regions in Latin America are so poor that working in the drug trade is the only way that many of those involved can make money.

And I'm not just talking about those who engage in the violence of the illegal drug trade. Just average guys earn paychecks by delivering the drugs, or by counting the money, or by helping to manufacture the drugs that are sold. The illegal drug trade is a business like any other and, for the poorest regions that have limited ability to develop economically, they see the drug cartels not as criminal organizations but rather as job creators.

That's the way it is in Mexico. Mexico is so full of drug violence because it is a buffer state between the U.S. and Central America. For drugs to travel from Central and South America, they have to do so through Mexico. Therefore, Mexico is a valuable pipeline from the source of drugs - Latin America - to the demand of drugs - the United States.

The Mexican government knows this, and it has honestly tried to crack down on the drug cartels. But it is incredibly difficult. Why?

Because working for a drug cartels can earn an individual much more money than working for their federal police.

Mexico isn't a wealthy nation by any means. Therefore, the ability for the Mexican government to tax its citizens is limited as well. And the Mexican government has to pay for the anti-drug task forces with tax dollars. But it is loathed to increase taxes because doing so will push out the reason why most multinational corporations go there - for the cheaper labor.

Which means the Mexican government does not have the tax revenue to pay for the police forces needed to act as enough of a counter to the drug cartels.

This is made quite clear by how one drug cartel, Los Zetas, came to be founded.

The Zetas drug cartel was founded by several members of the Mexican military. They were soldiers who fought against existing drug cartels and helped to crack down on them. But then they realized that they could make more money by taking over the drug trade than fighting against it. So what they did was use the military training and equipment at their disposal to become a major cartel of their own.

So in this case we have resources designed to help stop drugs being turned against the Mexican government and become a cartel in their own right.

This shows that the War on Drugs is very much an issue of the economy rather than an issue of violence. The people of Mexico and Latin America make so much money on the recreational drug economy. For many who are not part of the violence, it is their only way to make a decent living to take care of themselves and their families.

And many of them don't want to be involved with the violence of being part of a cartel. They don't like that their rivals or even their bosses could shoot them in the back of the head at any time for any reason. But they don't have any recourse. Why? Because the drug trade is such a major part of the Mexican economy and hires so many people.

But the violence is there only because the drug trade is kept criminal. Take the criminalization out of the drug trade and you allow those who aren't criminals to exert more and more control over it. Allow it to be taxed so the Mexican government can pay for essential government services. Allow businesses to deal in it so that competition will be done by market forces rather than by death squads.

It isn't that the Mexican government hasn't tried to do anything about it, because over the course of decades they have. The problem is that the drug trade is such a large part of the economy that they don't have any other economic resources that can compete with it.

And, really, all Mexico would really have to do is legalize all recreational drugs in their own country. That would allow Mexico to become a resort country and a focus of drug tourism from the U.S. But the U.S. government will exert so much pressure that they won't do that.

Which is funny since it's a case of the Mexican government not being able to make it's own internal decision because of outside influence from the U.S.

Either way you look at it, though, the only way out of the drug violence is legalization. Any other solution is only a call to increase the violence, which hasn't worked at all for the past 40 years.
 
You wanna see **** get even worse in this country? Lets get everyone addicted to meth, crack and heroin. It has worked so well for those on it. Drugs are illegal for a reason.

Cigarettes are legal. The number of smokers has actually decreased.

Alcohol is legal. People aren't drunk constantly.

Just because a drug is legal does not inherently mean many people will use it. Just because people have a choice to use something doesn't mean their choice will be to use it. And allowing those who do use those that choice will be much better than trying to imprison them for that choice.
 
Xenophobia! Xenophobia! Run away! Run away!

We go to Mexico all the time. We were in Puerto Peñasco a couple of weeks ago. There are area where you might run into trouble but it's not like those areas are a secret. LOL! Avoid them and you're fine. Mexicans are good people. Mexico is a beautiful country.

We'll go Puerto Vallarta this year and a planning to go to Guanajuato.

The biggest issue for Mexico is America's insatiable habit for illegal drugs. There would be no drug wars if Americans weren't funding them.
 
Cigarettes are legal. The number of smokers has actually decreased.

Alcohol is legal. People aren't drunk constantly.

Just because a drug is legal does not inherently mean many people will use it. Just because people have a choice to use something doesn't mean their choice will be to use it. And allowing those who do use those that choice will be much better than trying to imprison them for that choice.

There was a time when cigarettes were being used by almost everyone in the country. A large majority of Americans drink regularly. Do you know how ****ed up being belief a person's life would become if they were using meth and heroin a few times a week like people consume alcohol?
 
You wanna see **** get even worse in this country? Lets get everyone addicted to meth, crack and heroin. It has worked so well for those on it. Drugs are illegal for a reason.

The flawed logic here is that you assume that a significant amount of those who are not addicted to drugs are not addicted to drugs simply because its illegal. I would hazzard a guess and say that many of them are not addicted to drugs because they don't think it is a good idea. What we need to assess critically here is what value making these substances illegal actually has.
 
We go to Mexico all the time. We were in Puerto Peñasco a couple of weeks ago. There are area where you might run into trouble but it's not like those areas are a secret. LOL! Avoid them and you're fine.

Typically about 500 yards away from the coastline if i know Latin America:lol:
 
Actually, there's a very easy way for the government - Mexico's and the U.S.' - to get control over the drug cartels.

Legalize recreational drugs.

Legalize all recreational drugs and allow businesses to sell them to consumers. That way, the drug cartels will have to compete with Big Pharma for control of the recreational drug trade. Except that Big Pharma already has a leg up because 1) they've got lobbyists, 2) they've got marketing firms, and 3) they aren't tainted by massive murder and criminal activity.

Ah, yes, always the simple liberal answer.

Can you imagine how unproductive much of our citizenry would become if they could take drugs at will, and companies could no longer screen for them when hiring?

"Hey, Hal, what'd you do this weekend?"

"Not much. Shot heroine on Saturday night, so I was pretty catatonic all day Sunday. Totally missed work on Monday, dude."
 
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The flawed logic here is that you assume that a significant amount of those who are not addicted to drugs are not addicted to drugs simply because its illegal. I would hazzard a guess and say that many of them are not addicted to drugs because they don't think it is a good idea. What we need to assess critically here is what value making these substances illegal actually has.

The legalazation of something would likely peak the interested in a lot of people, especially when they are out partying on a Friday night and stop into 711 when they are drunk and high on weed and can pick up some meth and herion. There are very few meth heads, crack heads, ect that are productive in any society. We don't need to be taking hard working Americans and helping them turn into junkies. We need to be doing the opposite. The value of making these substances illegal is because they have been proven to take over a persons life even when initially used recreationally and destroy it completely. Can you name any benefits of legalizing meth?
 
Ah, yes, always the simple liberal answer.

Can you imagine how unproductive much of our citizenry would become if they could take drugs at will, and companies could no longer screen for them when hiring?

"Hey, Hal, what'd you do this weekend?"

"Not much. Shot heroine on Saturday night, so I was pretty catatonic all day Sunday. Totally missed work on Monday, dude."

Conversation doesnt stop there.

Since he missed Monday and was sitting home all day so he went ahead and got high again. Which screwed him over on going to work Tuesday too. That pissed his boss off who suspends him for a few days. So he decides to get high again since he is upset about the suspension. Ultimately leads to him getting fired. Which luckily for him he can fall back on our welfare system till he gets back on his feet. Which could take a while when you have a track record of poor attendance at your previous job and your piss is dirty. And in the job interview your teeth are rotting out of your head and your potentially new boss is watching your cold sweats shakes as you try to think of an answer. In hindsight offering to suck his dick for $20 probably wasnt helpful either. After a long while with this the guy will likely enroll in some type of rehab at the tax payers expense to help him clean up and get off the heroin. During that time he decides he should probably sue the manufacturer who is legally selling it for ruining his life draining our tax money and wasting a courts time. he will likely win because we always hold others accountable here in AMerica for our own failures. With that money he will "celebrate" and the cycle will start again.
 
Its not a popular message...but if you are going to combat certain groups, you have to play on their terms. You have to be ruthless, brutal, merciless. Frankly...most people dont have the stomach to accept the fact, let alone to engage.
 
So they're our responsibility? Another nanny-nation that we have to support? We already give support each year financially to numerous nations in order for them to deal with their drug-trafficking issues that have grown as a result of our policies. That is not enough?
We could cut-off our support for the cartels.
The cartels are using American money to run amok down there.

If we legalized the drugs they're making their money on, they would either have to go legit or get out of the game.

If we enabled the open use and growth of drugs in our nation then what's next? Just how undone do you want society to become. . .really?
We should do something to stop short of ending up where we're headed, which is toward having foreign drug cartels engaging in open violence in the US.

Given an excluded middle choice between an uptick in pothead basement dwellers and an uptick in Mexican drug cartels, I'm gonna go with the pothead in the basement.

Weshouldn't be spending our tax money to subsidize the profits of the drug cartels. imho.
 
Can you imagine how unproductive much of our citizenry would become if they could take drugs at will...
We already can take drugs at will. So it would be about the same afaict.

...companies could no longer screen for them when hiring?
What would stop them?
 
We could cut-off our support for the cartels.
The cartels are using American money to run amok down there.

If we legalized the drugs they're making their money on, they would either have to go legit or get out of the game.

We should do something to stop short of ending up where we're headed, which is toward having foreign drug cartels engaging in open violence in the US.

Given an excluded middle choice between an uptick in pothead basement dwellers and an uptick in Mexican drug cartels, I'm gonna go with the pothead in the basement.

Weshouldn't be spending our tax money to subsidize the profits of the drug cartels. imho.

So - ending demand, indeed.

Rather than just redirecting supply and it's demand.
 
The legalazation of something would likely peak the interested in a lot of people, especially when they are out partying on a Friday night and stop into 711 when they are drunk and high on weed and can pick up some meth and herion. There are very few meth heads, crack heads, ect that are productive in any society. We don't need to be taking hard working Americans and helping them turn into junkies. We need to be doing the opposite. The value of making these substances illegal is because they have been proven to take over a persons life even when initially used recreationally and destroy it completely. Can you name any benefits of legalizing meth?

If this was the case this would have happened in Portugal where drugs have already been legalized and use has actually gone down. I dont think that we are such base creatures that the state is the only thing keeping us from being off our tits on herion every night. If i wanted to be so I need only have asked the people next door, i choose not to because its a dumb thing to do and so, i think, do most people. Generally the state is very bad at stopping people from doing things recreationally.

And i can name four . 1 reduced income for criminals 2 less deaths resulting from use if the products are properly regulated 3 less addiction if the resources used for policing drug use are redirected into treatment 4 not having a civil war on your southern border.
 
Cigarettes are legal. The number of smokers has actually decreased.

Alcohol is legal. People aren't drunk constantly.

Just because a drug is legal does not inherently mean many people will use it. Just because people have a choice to use something doesn't mean their choice will be to use it. And allowing those who do use those that choice will be much better than trying to imprison them for that choice.

One word....

Holland...

Are they all stoned all the time because they have a legal trade for pot?
 
How did we come into a country populated with other people and take it over? How did we clean our nation up in such a short amount of time to where we are now considered the world's mother?

we might have been backhanded and smarmy - but we did it anyway.

They could deal with their issues IF THEY WANTED TO really get it done - but they've let it go for SO long that it's just exploded.

The fact of the matter is that the drug problem is both a Mexico and US problem. Do you think these drug cartels would be battling so hard against each other for control of the US border corridors if there wasn't massive amounts of money to be made? The drug trade will not end because Americans fund these cartels as well as the fact that the US has been involved in helping to smuggle drugs/launder money (such as the CIA and the DEA).
 
And i can name four . 1 reduced income for criminals [/B]

By that logic if we legalize murders then hitmen would be out of a job. We could legalize rape and put prostitutes out of jobs. You could legalize every crime and then we wouldn't have criminals at all right?

2 less deaths resulting from use if the products are properly regulated

How exactly do you properly regulate a product that is so addictive people will sell their bodies, children, rob, kill, ect to get?

3 less addiction if the resources used for policing drug use are redirected into treatment

So we should help people get addicted to heroin, meth and crack then pay to help them get off it. Does that really sound productive?

4 not having a civil war on your southern border.

If criminals and the like start fighting instead of fighting back we should tuck our tails between our legs and give in? Give in to lawlessness and any resemblence of decency and hope that if we legalize everything that people will eventually grow tired it all? Seriously?
 
If this was the case this would have happened in Portugal where drugs have already been legalized and use has actually gone down.

They also changed attitude to what addiction was.. a disease, a disease that could be managed. They are also doing it in Switzerland until the usual conservative wackjobs ruined that.

Both situations proved that if drug use is managed under control circumstances, then the addicts actually can have a functional life.. you know, family, work.. a volvo type situation. And it actually costs society much less, both in human lives but also in euros.

So not only has drug use gone down (the ohhh it is illegal and dangerous, so it must be good theory), but of those on drugs, many actually live normal lives.
 
What the heck is going on with Mexico? It seems to be getting worse. Is this country going to just implode? When the drug cartels clearly rule the roost, what can be done? Is there anything that can be done to fix this?


[video]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/47426255#47426255[/video]

Unfortunately, the general population of Mexico doesn't seem to have the backbone or the heart to fix the problems which are currently plaguing the country. As a general rule, the Mexican people are a good-natured, hard-working, simple, family-centered group of people. That being said, they don't like to face problems head-on, because they don't want the cultural disturbance it would cause. I have a lot of friends who are Mexican immigrants. Whenever I ask them questions or make observations about what is happening in Mexico, they invariably want to close their eyes to the situation, as if they can just wish it away, and they have an attitude that the people causing the problem need appeasement. It's very sad.
 
Do people REALLY believe legalizing marijuana solves this? Hey...Im all for legalizing pot...always have been and NOT to fight the drug war. But the real money is not in pot...its in heroin, and meth, and other smaller, more easily portable drugs. One of the reasons we see reduced meth labs in America is the production and distribution from mexico has gotten so much better and more efficient. So...do we decriminalize ALL drug use? Just stop arresting people? That stops usage...how exactly?
 
The law needs to square itself away and GET INVOLVED and rule the roost instead.

:shrug: But in the US we turn our back on gangs that deal in the drug trade . . . so I don't think we have any answers, either.

I thought the war on drugs was a waste of time. ;)
 
I thought the war on drugs was a waste of time. ;)

I've never believed that - obviously: that's what I support with my stance against them.

I can see it now: we legalize one source of an illicit substance and quickly - when crime and immoral activities directly related to it increases - our government is slaughtered for it and I'm proven correct.

Now how ever much I love to be right - i'd rather not find out *that* way.
 
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By that logic if we legalize murders then hitmen would be out of a job. We could legalize rape and put prostitutes out of jobs. You could legalize every crime and then we wouldn't have criminals at all right?

Not a great analogy because the objection we have with murder is related to the nature of the act itself, the problems we have with drug use (addiction, money for organised crime, overdoses, side effects etc.) are all either symptomatic of prohibition or could be allieviated by legalization.

How exactly do you properly regulate a product that is so addictive people will sell their bodies, children, rob, kill, ect to get?
Control the dossage and the over crap typically thrown in (who'd have thought allowing criminals to monopolise a product would make it so dangerous) legalize only the strains of Marijuana with less THC and more HTC.


So we should help people get addicted to heroin, meth and crack then pay to help them get off it. Does that really sound productive?

I've already shown how legalization will not dramatically increase use, again the case of Portugal shows that it may reduce it

If criminals and the like start fighting instead of fighting back we should tuck our tails between our legs and give in? Give in to lawlessness and any resemblence of decency and hope that if we legalize everything that people will eventually grow tired it all? Seriously?

Put simply this is more about doing what actually works, you think its worthwhile to bring a country to its knees over a plant?
 
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