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A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

I didn't, but I paid a whole lot less tuition that today's college kids do now, and moreover made far more money than 99% of them can now, at least if you allow for inflation.

Actually, education should not be free, not even K-12. Everyone should pay something, or education is seen as free and therefore of little value. It should not be out of reach of anyone, however, and it should be possible to graduate debt free. We don't want to make schooling difficult to obtain if we want to have an educated population.


We do want to have an educated population, don't we? The alternative is to become like a third world country.
it wasn't that long ago that we were not a debtor nation, now we are....
the govt can't keep spending for things we don't need with money we don't have and expect to retire our debt.
 
Yeah that's probably true. So what should our goal be? To give up and let things fall apart? Or to try to reduce the number of people in that boat and boost up our economy?

Boosting the economy and creating jobs for non-degreed people is how you make things better. People that want to get the much smaller percentage of degreed jobs available will get their education.
 
Boosting the economy and creating jobs for non-degreed people is how you make things better. People that want to get the much smaller percentage of degreed jobs available will get their education.

I dunno man. Your vision of the world and progress is just very different than mine I guess. I think we ought to move forward as fast as we can. Most the most people into the best jobs possible, develop new technologies as fast as we can, etc. It seems like you just kind of want to go back to the jobs of the past. People working in factories and whatnot. That's the wrong direction. You're headed backwards.
 
That's right. Read my post before you reply to it.

I did. The point is you're bitching about the cost of education, but you think that "the government" covering this horrendous cost would somehow "raise taxes a bit". Math is obviously not your strong suit.
 
I did. The point is you're bitching about the cost of education, but you think that "the government" covering this horrendous cost would somehow "raise taxes a bit". Math is obviously not your strong suit.

Again, if no more people got more education, it would raise taxes by the same amount it saves us in education spending, so it would be a wash. If more people went to college it would save money because they would be paying more in taxes on their additional income than their education costs.
 
I dunno man. Your vision of the world and progress is just very different than mine I guess. I think we ought to move forward as fast as we can. Most the most people into the best jobs possible, develop new technologies as fast as we can, etc. It seems like you just kind of want to go back to the jobs of the past. People working in factories and whatnot. That's the wrong direction. You're headed backwards.

So, you think the majority of Americans are BS recipients in waiting, huh?

Manufacturing is what employs the masses. Without it, our economy will continue to suck.
 
Again, if no more people got more education, it would raise taxes by the same amount it saves us in education spending, so it would be a wash. If more people went to college it would save money because they would be paying more in taxes on their additional income than their education costs.

Not when companies don't have to offer you as much to get you to work for them, because there are 1000 more applicants with the same credentials applying for the same job.
 
So, you think the majority of Americans are BS recipients in waiting, huh?

Manufacturing is what employs the masses. Without it, our economy will continue to suck.

No, that's not true at all. Manufacturing is only 14% of the economy. It USED TO BE what powered the economy up until about 20 years ago. We're moving away from manufacturing into higher return fields. Not that we want to turn manufacturing jobs away. Certainly they're still a good thing. But our growth area is clearly information economy jobs. Manufacturing is mostly being done by much poorer countries than us. It's last generation's work.

I dunno. It just doesn't seem like you believe in the idea of progress in general. Like your vision for the future and your vision of the past aren't really much any different. That's not a vision for the country I could possibly ever get behind.
 
Not when companies don't have to offer you as much to get you to work for them, because there are 1000 more applicants with the same credentials applying for the same job.

We're just going around in circles. Again, the more educated people, the more new things they invent, the more new business models and approaches and ideas. The more of that that goes on, the more jobs there are that require people with educations. Progress.
 
We're just going around in circles. Again, the more educated people, the more new things they invent, the more new business models and approaches and ideas. The more of that that goes on, the more jobs there are that require people with educations. Progress.

Well...we have a higher percentage of educated people than ever before....and we're slipping in every catagory, including "inventing things". How does that fit your vision?
 
No, that's not true at all. Manufacturing is only 14% of the economy. It USED TO BE what powered the economy up until about 20 years ago. We're moving away from manufacturing into higher return fields. Not that we want to turn manufacturing jobs away. Certainly they're still a good thing. But our growth area is clearly information economy jobs. Manufacturing is mostly being done by much poorer countries than us. It's last generation's work.

I dunno. It just doesn't seem like you believe in the idea of progress in general. Like your vision for the future and your vision of the past aren't really much any different. That's not a vision for the country I could possibly ever get behind.

partly true, we are supposedly in an information age....but information is too often abused...

the way to make money has become lying to the public, misleading them into buying things they can't afford, then when their dreams die, someone comes in and picks the bones....it is called vulture capitalism. Go out and kill something, then pick its bones clean.
It isn't sustainable.
Not sure what is coming next, but I won't be a part of it. One of my neighbors is an "investment counselor" and tried to get me to turn over a chunk of money for him to invest for me. Sorry, been there, done that, lost money at it. I learned something.
That was an education I paid dearly for, before I bailed out and took personal control. Maybe the govt should pay me for learning that?
 
Well...we have a higher percentage of educated people than ever before....and we're slipping in every catagory, including "inventing things". How does that fit your vision?

No we're not. Not even close. Our economy has grown by an average of 2.4% a quarter for the last 2 years. That's above average. The nasdaq just hit the highest level its been at since Clinton was in office. It has grown back not just from the slump, but has recovered the entire amount lost during the whole Bush presidency in just 3 years. But, regardless, trying to analyze a question about employment trends based on short term data is ridiculous. We need to plan for our education needs 30 years out. Of course there will be recessions in that time. That doesn't mean that history is suddenly going to stop.
 
my main problem with the current university system in the West is that we are pushing young people into going to College who then go and get a degree only to go work in the service indusrty etc. I think we should cut univeristy courses in half and persuade more people to go to trade school, apprenticeship etc. People are coming out of college with degrees that theey will never use and are up to their necks in debt, makes no sense to me.
 
No we're not. Not even close. Our economy has grown by an average of 2.4% a quarter for the last 2 years. That's above average. The nasdaq just hit the highest level its been at since Clinton was in office. It has grown back not just from the slump, but has recovered the entire amount lost during the whole Bush presidency in just 3 years. But, regardless, trying to analyze a question about employment trends based on short term data is ridiculous. We need to plan for our education needs 30 years out. Of course there will be recessions in that time. That doesn't mean that history is suddenly going to stop.

Is America Losing Its Edge? | Foreign Affairs
Space disgrace: U.S. will lose hard-earned technology edge - Houston Chronicle
U.S. Losing Competitive Edge in Technology, Science: National Science Board - IT Infrastructure - News & Reviews - eWeek.com


It's all about partisanship, eh?

BTW, we ranked at 159 for economic growth in 2011.
 
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my main problem with the current university system in the West is that we are pushing young people into going to College who then go and get a degree only to go work in the service indusrty etc. I think we should cut univeristy courses in half and persuade more people to go to trade school, apprenticeship etc. People are coming out of college with degrees that theey will never use and are up to their necks in debt, makes no sense to me.

You're just looking at it through the lens of the recession we are still clawing our way out of. That isn't typical at all. You don't want to plan your education strategy around this year, you want to plan it around the time between 4 and 40 years from now. But, even now, people with bachelor's degrees are making a median of 37% more than people with 2 year trade degrees.
 

So wait a minute... Let me get this straight. You think we are losing our edge in science and technology so you want to educate people LESS?
 
So wait a minute... Let me get this straight. You think we are losing our edge in science and technology so you want to educate people LESS?

an education alone does not make for much progress, especially when you consider where, and who, the education comes from....
ONLY the best and brightest should get advanced education, dolts need not apply....
 
So wait a minute... Let me get this straight. You think we are losing our edge in science and technology so you want to educate people LESS?

Nice diversion, and look back and find where I said I wanted to educate people less. I'll wait. The point remains, we are more educated than ever and losing our technological edge. Your vision is flawed...and apparently, hyper-partisan.
 
an education alone does not make for much progress, especially when you consider where, and who, the education comes from....
ONLY the best and brightest should get advanced education, dolts need not apply....

Well, I've explained why that isn't so a dozen different ways, but you seem to just be ignoring everything I'm posting and just repeating your assumption over and over. So let me try another way. The biggest problem this country faces right now economically is how far red states are lagging behind blue states. The median income in blue states is $10k/year higher. That's the difference between the US and Italy. Every major economic boom in modern history has come from a blue state. If the red states caught up to the blue states we would be running a surplus. Now, why is that happening? What are the red states doing wrong? It seems to me that the obvious answer is their lackluster educational systems and the lack of commitment to staying in school by conservatives. The students in the top schools are overwhelmingly liberals from blue states. The average Democrat has 1.5 more years of education than the average Republican. Red states lag way behind blue states in the number of people with college degrees and radically far behind in terms of the number of people with graduate degrees.

The picture of the economy you are presenting as being mostly driven by things like manufacturing and manual labor seems totally bizarre to me. I don't know anyone, not one single person, that works in an area like that. Not all my friends are in jobs that officially require college degrees, but virtually all of them are in jobs where more than 90% of the people have college degrees, about 1/3 of them are in fields where a graduate degree is required. So the economy you're describing just sounds to me like some kind of page out of a history book from 30 years ago. But it is dawning on me now that maybe what is going on is that you're describing what you see living in a red state. That maybe red states really are that far behind.

So, if that's the case, what is the solution? It sure isn't to just continue to lazy around not getting an education and doing jobs that don't need one. So you tell me. If not education, what is it that you think the red states need in order to catch up?
 
Nice diversion, and look back and find where I said I wanted to educate people less. I'll wait. The point remains, we are more educated than ever and losing our technological edge. Your vision is flawed...and apparently, hyper-partisan.

No, we are falling behind the rest of the world in terms of education. That is what your articles say and that is something everybody knows. We used to be right at the very top of the list for education, now we're steadily dropping. Isn't picking up the pace and getting more education the obvious solution to being out competed by countries that are more educated?
 
Again, if no more people got more education, it would raise taxes by the same amount it saves us in education spending, so it would be a wash. If more people went to college it would save money because they would be paying more in taxes on their additional income than their education costs.

Too many students are already in four-year institutions who don't need to be there, IMO. Continuing to support excellent two-year degrees in applied science--e.g. allied health and network administration is one positive move.
 
No, we are falling behind the rest of the world in terms of education. That is what your articles say and that is something everybody knows. We used to be right at the very top of the list for education, now we're steadily dropping. Isn't picking up the pace and getting more education the obvious solution to being out competed by countries that are more educated?

Only Switzerland spends more per pupil than America. The public school system can't be reformed. There are too many people whose livelihoods depend on maintenance of the status quo. Nothing is going to change.
 
Too many students are already in four-year institutions who don't need to be there, IMO. Continuing to support excellent two-year degrees in applied science--e.g. allied health and network administration is one positive move.

The median person makes 37% more for their entire career if they finish the 4 year degree instead of stopping at 2. Why would you encourage somebody to do that? The extra 2 years pay for themselves in no time and then the whole rest of their lives they'll make that much more.
 
If that's the case, it's just one more proof that American high schools need a serious overhaul, which clearly they do.

They do..schools need to dump all the social engineering and indoctrination crap that takes most of the day and go back to teaching the 4Rs...

This is pretty simple...when I was in school we were in school longer per day than most kids are today...we were in school from 7:45am to 3:15pm...and we were taught any social engineering at all....so how the hell can they have enough time in the day to teach them what they REALLY need to learn....
 
Only Switzerland spends more per pupil than America. The public school system can't be reformed. There are too many people whose livelihoods depend on maintenance of the status quo. Nothing is going to change.

IMO the main reasons other countries are beating us on education are that they pay for college across the board and that for K-12 they have longer school years. But, regardless, what to do to improve the quality of K-12 is another topic.
 
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