A Generation Hobbled by the Soaring Cost of College

look at Andres Serrano one of the more famous experimental artists never went to college.

UtahBill said:

Very few of us have to work a job to get the high school education, but college is different.

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I started working at 16 and I went to a private high school. By the time I got to my senior year, I paid for my own school. I didn't have to, I wanted to. I worked all the way through college and paid every penny of it out of my own pocket. I didn't have to, I could have gotten loans and all that, I wanted to. Before I got my first degree, I was very firmly in management and making a very, very good living.

Today's kids got handed a raw deal. Everybody tells them the degree is worth the investment, then the jobs move overseas and the economy falters.

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Ha, everyone tells them they're special and they deserve to get things handed to them, just because they get out of bed in the morning. Many degrees are worth the investment. We are in an increasingly technical world. However, a degree alone doesn't guarantee you employment, nor is every degree worthwhile. Lots of people out there getting liberal arts degrees that are entirely pointless. My best friend got a Masters in history. He can't get a job because he never worked during his college years and history doesn't mean a damn thing to most in the workforce. It really doesn't matter what degree you get though, you're going to start at the bottom in most any company you get hired at and far too many of these self-absorbed idiots have unrealistic expectations, they want a corner office and a company car, just because they have a piece of paper in their hand. Sitting in a classroom doesn't automatically earn you jack squat.

YoungConserv said:

look at Andres Serrano one of the more famous experimental artists never went to college.

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I love it when other artists point to (fill in artist who didn't get formal training here) when they want to argue why they shouldn't have to get an education either. They never get good at their craft and I don't have to worry about about the competition. Meanwhile they'll continue to ignore the statistics in that the Andres Serranos and the Jimi Hendrixes of the world are one in millions. Also, there's this hundred year old guy who smoked three packs of cigarettes a day his whole life and he's doing great, so light up!

Cephus said:

It really doesn't matter what degree you get though, you're going to start at the bottom in most any company you get hired at and far too many of these self-absorbed idiots have unrealistic expectations, they want a corner office and a company car, just because they have a piece of paper in their hand. Sitting in a classroom doesn't automatically earn you jack squat.

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While I agree with what you say, then I must question why go to college? If I can get my foot in the door 4-6 years earlier than someone chasing a degree that won't even help them in the company, as they'd start at the bottom like I am, why bother? Get the head start, and by the time they get out with a degree, tons of student debt and no experience, you have 4-6 years of experience under your belt and are much more employable and "worth more" to the company, don't you think?

dontworrybehappy said:

While I agree with what you say, then I must question why go to college? If I can get my foot in the door 4-6 years earlier than someone chasing a degree that won't even help them in the company, as they'd start at the bottom like I am, why bother? Get the head start, and by the time they get out with a degree and no experience, you have 4-6 years of experience under your belt and are much more employable and "worth more" to the company, don't you think?

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It sounds like an equally calculated risk. You're basically relying on succeeding in the company you're getting a head start in. If the company or your relationship with it goes south for any reason, you're now stuck outside without a degree. That would suck.

dontworrybehappy said:

While I agree with what you say, then I must question why go to college? If I can get my foot in the door 4-6 years earlier than someone chasing a degree that won't even help them in the company, as they'd start at the bottom like I am, why bother? Get the head start, and by the time they get out with a degree, tons of student debt and no experience, you have 4-6 years of experience under your belt and are much more employable and "worth more" to the company, don't you think?

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There are many fields where college just isn't necessary. I think there should be more technical colleges which specifically teach hands-on skills for people who aren't going into a high-end career. That said though, it should never be an either/or proposition. You shouldn't make a decision between working or going to school, you should *ALWAYS* do both. Maybe if people had to work through college, they wouldn't have as much time to get drunk and party.

Cephus said:

I started working at 16 and I went to a private high school. By the time I got to my senior year, I paid for my own school. I didn't have to, I wanted to. I worked all the way through college and paid every penny of it out of my own pocket. I didn't have to, I could have gotten loans and all that, I wanted to. Before I got my first degree, I was very firmly in management and making a very, very good living.



Ha, everyone tells them they're special and they deserve to get things handed to them, just because they get out of bed in the morning. Many degrees are worth the investment. We are in an increasingly technical world. However, a degree alone doesn't guarantee you employment, nor is every degree worthwhile. Lots of people out there getting liberal arts degrees that are entirely pointless. My best friend got a Masters in history. He can't get a job because he never worked during his college years and history doesn't mean a damn thing to most in the workforce. It really doesn't matter what degree you get though, you're going to start at the bottom in most any company you get hired at and far too many of these self-absorbed idiots have unrealistic expectations, they want a corner office and a company car, just because they have a piece of paper in their hand. Sitting in a classroom doesn't automatically earn you jack squat.

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Entry level doesn't mean the same thing to a college grad as it does to a HS grad.....
In other words, the HS grad can start as a janitor, the college grad can start at much higher pay than the lead janitor....

A degree will open more doors, better doors, even a degree in Art History....some jobs just require a degree, not a specific degree, because you will most likely be representing the company to others who also have degrees. No brand new degreed sales rep is expected to meet with the company's top janitor...unless he is selling cleaning supplies...

Due to how my last semester has gone at college - how the professors seem less interested in challenging the sutdents and more interested in dumbing things down so more students manage to graduate (etc) - I hold a higher education in a slightly lesser light.

In the future when hiring employees I'll consider those who have no formal education - they might still know all that's necessary to do the job well. I just have to divise a method of figuring out what they can and do know - vs what they can't and don't.

Back in my day, parents were willing to help with college expenses... for their sons. If a daughter wanted to go to college, parents would scoff at the notion of "wasting" money on a mere female who would just find a guy to marry, pop out babies and mop floors for the rest of her life. However, I did not grow up in a "well off" society. We weren't blue collar, but we weren't rich either. The kids I knew in high school who went on to college worked to put themselves through. So when kids today have to also work to afford tuition, I just shrug and think, "Good, it builds character and they'll be studying because they want to learn, not frat-party their way through on mommy and daddy's nickle."

That said, private universities have skyrocketing personnel expenses, paying university administrators and professors what I consider to be exorbitant salaries... hundreds of thousands to millions annually. That is unconscionable. They poor money into their sports programs, bribing atheletes with tens or hundreds of thousands in perks, all at university expense, all of which is paid for by students who are struggling through without scholarships or wealthy parents.

I blame the colleges and universities for the higher-than-inflation tuititon fees. Corruption, competition for sports stars, obscene salaries... that is what I believe has caused this massive cost. If I ruled the world, every kid in the country would have an education funded by taxpayers from kindergarten through bachelor's degree. Our kids are not truly educated until they're college-educated, and I want every kid who wants to go to college to have the ability to do so.

Unfortunately, I don't rule the world. If one wants a degree from a particularly expensive university, there are only two ways to earn it: Work for the money you need or take out loans, realizing that by doing so you are chained to a debt you may never be able to repay.

sawyerloggingon said:

You had to have rich parents to stay in college then, like I said, cry me a ****** river.

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Not then, but now you do unless you want a massive debt. Jobs college kids could get paid a lot more relative to the cost of living, plus college cost a lot less than it does now. Lots of people who didn't have rich parents still stayed in college. Of course, lots of them did have a six year loaf made from Dad's dough before they graduated with that four year degree.

Don't forget: If everyone has a college degree, no one does.

Samhain said:

Don't forget: If everyone has a college degree, no one does.

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A degree, in and of itself, is just a piece of paper. It indicates that the individual has a specific level of training and knowledge, nothing more. Even if everyone had a degree in the same subject, it would just mean a very well trained workforce, albeit in an incredibly overcrowded field.

I want to say a couple of things:

On the cost of college education and related current events:

Prices have gone up a lot due to the fact that the federal government ties institutional aid to the amount of students receiving federal aid at the institution. This has only served to increase costs as colleges don't look to have any money left over, but rather go and spend all of their money.

Currently, we have a situation where student debt is over $1 trillion and a bubble has been created with large amounts of people defaulting on their debts. A recent Associated Press article stated that for the class of 2011, half of them are either unemployed or underemployed and “underemployment [is taken] into consideration, the job prospects for bachelor's degree holders fell last year to the lowest level in more than a decade.” (Half of recent college grads underemployed or jobless, analysis says | cleveland.com)

While many might automatically say that those are people who got 'useless' degrees, one has to look at the overall employment situation.

Mr. Invisible said:

Currently U-6 unemployment is at 14.5%. (Portal Seven | U6 Unemployment Rate) U-6 stayed at 14.5% last month and was at 14.9% in February. So, really there is no actual recovery. The WSJ does a great job of explaining how the unemployment rate dropped (Why Did the Unemployment Rate Drop? - Real Time Economics - WSJ). I think we also need to realize that the government does game the numbers (No Jobs For Americans |) (The January Jobs Are Statistical Artifacts |).

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Thus, seeing as how in general unemployment prospects are low, one cannot just go and lay the blame on students for not being able to get jobs.

Going back to the student debt problem, this should be of concern to everyone because there has been an increase in defaults on loans (you can't get rid of student loans in bankruptcy), which allows the government or lending agency to do such things as garnish social security payments or wages. Students are essentially thrown into debt slavery as if they can't pay their loans, their only choice is to default, which can have horrid effects on one's future financial security. (Consequences of Default)

These lending institutions act just like regular banks do when they get a ton of people not paying their debts. They either A) Increase interest rates or B) Tighten the flow of credit, both of which will result in there being less educated people. This could have serious negative effects due to the fact that as America moves from an industrial to a knowledge based economy, there won't be as many people with the intellectual capacity to ensure innovation, creation, and generally stimulate economic growth, thus putting American technological and economic dominance at risk.

On whether a college education is needed:

I think that so many people have gone to college (myself included) due to the fact that our parents and society at large has consistently stated to us that the only way to have a successful life is to go to college. I would agree with this up to an extent. I think that overall, one pays mainly for a piece of paper. While college can be beneficial in many ways (for example, I wouldn't be doing the writing and research I am now had it not been for a series of events that took place during my freshman year in college), in reality there are few things one could learn without either reading extensively on the topic or investing in a textbook. While this is true, a college education is also needed by many employers, thus that is also another reason to go to college: to become employable. However, I think that employers should offer on the job training as that would give people more experience than ever sitting in a classroom would.

Cephus said:

A degree, in and of itself, is just a piece of paper. It indicates that the individual has a specific level of training and knowledge, nothing more. Even if everyone had a degree in the same subject, it would just mean a very well trained workforce, albeit in an incredibly overcrowded field.

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I'm beginning to question that - the bolded statement. I think *generally* speaking it's suppose to mean that. . . but even if someone has A's it might be because they learned anything and *not* necessarily because they were a crap student: but becaues they had crap teachers. It's not a blanket issue, though - so it just puts me a little on edge and less likely to just *assume* someone has a degree and a good transcript and therefor was truly the 'best one' in the class.

“As an 18-year-old, it sounded like a good fit to me, and the school really sold it,” said Ms. Griffith, a marketing major. “I knew a private school would cost a lot of money. But when I graduate, I’m going to owe like $900 a month. No one told me that.”

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The marketing major got suckered by good marketing. :lol:

Maybe that was her first lesson. :2razz:

radcen said:

The marketing major got suckered by good marketing. :lol:

Maybe that was her first lesson. :2razz:

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:rofl

Before I go into debt for 120K I'm gonna do a lot of ****ing homework.

Odd, we didn't have this problem before LBJ, student loan programs, Pell grants, etc.

UtahBill said:

Odd, we didn't have this problem before LBJ, student loan programs, Pell grants, etc.

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A higher education use to be *for* wealthy individuals - or those savvy enough to compell someone to literaly invest in their higher education.

Aunt Spiker said:

A higher education use to be *for* wealthy individuals - or those savvy enough to compell someone to literaly invest in their higher education.

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I used the GI bill, after 12 years of active duty. Those friends from HS that went directly to college went on parentships, or scholarships.
The wife and I invested in our kids education, to minimize the odds that they would continue to live with us in their adulthood.
But, if things happen beyond their control, we have room for them.
Long time from now, we may have to live with them, when we get really old....

Grim17 said:

You know, if student loans and government grants didn't exist, I'll bet the price for college tuitions would be cut in half.

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Hmm lets see.. a huge portion of the student population would fall by the road, causing college bankruptcies.. leaving higher education only to the wealthy 1%.. yea, that would cut the price for sure...

UtahBill said:

I used the GI bill, after 12 years of active duty. Those friends from HS that went directly to college went on parentships, or scholarships.
The wife and I invested in our kids education, to minimize the odds that they would continue to live with us in their adulthood.
But, if things happen beyond their control, we have room for them.
Long time from now, we may have to live with them, when we get really old....

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Oh - I was thinking further back in time, before scholarships, etc . . . there was a significant amount of time in which even high-school seemed excessive and adequate pay / adequate living could be achieved without it.

Neomalthusian said:

$120,000 for a Marketing degree is no wiser an investment than $500,000 for a shoddy condominium. Marketing and other general business degrees are a dime a dozen, from most employers' perspectives. It amounts to a very bad investment decision on this girl's part and she will feel it for decades. To some degree she should have known better, but many 18-year olds don't know better and don't understand finance. So it's also too bad that these parents didn't know better or advise her better.

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Several points:

1. On the general point that the costs for a marketing degree at Ohio Northern make it a low value-added proposition in this case, we agree.

2. There is insufficient credible information on costs/benefits of specific degrees from specific schools, though more information is becoming available. I don't think Ms. Griffith had access to that kind of information.

3. The recent recession has led to structural changes that have altered the value proposition of degrees. Even MBAs from top schools have depreciated rather significantly in value on account of structural changes that have led, among other things, to the financial sector comprising a much smaller share of the economy than it did in the run-up of the housing bubble. Lower demand relative to supply have put firms into a price maker role that they did not enjoy during the credit boom, runup in the housing bubble.

4. The ongoing evolution of the U.S. economy and structural driving forces (trade and the technology and information revolutions) are leading to some significant mismatches between areas of study and employment prospects. The changes are occurring more rapidly than they had in the past.

5. Specialization is continuing to grow relative to generalization. From mid-level management and down, that trend is particularly significant, as it allows companies to become more efficient and differentiated. More jobs are being created with a degree of specialization. However, from an upper management standpoint, there are tradeoffs. The increased specialization is leading to greater difficulty in finding candidates for senior positions who have the capability of understanding the big picture, aligning the organization as a whole, etc. In a dynamic global environment, lack of ability to understand the environment in which a company operates can be lethal when it comes to preserving or advancing a company's competitive advantages.

In sum, one should be concerned with the plight many students are facing, especially if that trend leads to the current relative decline in educational attainment giving way to an absolute decline. College degrees are increasingly the minimal starting point for productive workers and holders of such degrees, once they gain positions, enjoy greater job stability and higher incomes than those who lack such degrees. The broad shift toward knowledge-intensive work is making such degrees necessary except for a small range of fields. With the gradual retirement of the Baby Boom generation underway, firms will be confronted with the challenge of filling essential positions. A lack of sufficientldomestic talent will compel firms to look abroad where eductional attainment is rising. One might argue that firms should focus on training, but in many cases, firms lack the luxury of time to develop such employees and teaching the kind of skills provided by a college education is not possible in a one-to-two week training session. In the end, a society that cannot educate its youth is also a society that cedes opportunity and progress to those that succeed in educating their youth.

Mr. Invisible said:

I think that overall, one pays mainly for a piece of paper. While college can be beneficial in many ways (for example, I wouldn't be doing the writing and research I am now had it not been for a series of events that took place during my freshman year in college), in reality there are few things one could learn without either reading extensively on the topic or investing in a textbook. While this is true, a college education is also needed by many employers, thus that is also another reason to go to college: to become employable. However, I think that employers should offer on the job training as that would give people more experience than ever sitting in a classroom would.

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In many cases, firms don't have the luxury of rigorously testing their job applicants. In part, such testing can be cost-prohibitive. In part, testing has been outlawed, because "tests" had been used as an instrument to discriminate against members of minority groups, some of whom were eminently qualified for the actual requirements of the positions in question. Hence, a college degree serves as an instrument that attests to a person's possessing a given level of skills and knowledge, albeit an imperfect one.

On the point of self-teaching, I agree with you. Any reasonably intelligent and highly-motivated person can advance his/her knowledge in the fashion you describe. Unfortunately, an inadequate number of people are motivated to the extent that such an approach is viable to the point where firms would look less to a college degree.

YoungConserv said:

look at Andres Serrano one of the more famous experimental artists never went to college.

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Creative genius (a level of creativity that runs far above the norm) is not something that can necessarily be taught. It can be cultivated in many ways, including but not limited to education. Few people truly possess creative genius to the extent that they can surmount a college education. Andres Serrano is an exception, not the norm.

Aunt Spiker said:

Due to how my last semester has gone at college - how the professors seem less interested in challenging the sutdents and more interested in dumbing things down so more students manage to graduate (etc) - I hold a higher education in a slightly lesser light.

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It's unfortunate that you have had professors who are not interested in challenging students. How does your college evaluate its professors? For those who are on tenure track, is student success an important consideration? Just try to do the best you can in your studies. Don't get discouraged.