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Syria crisis: France raises use of force(edited)

Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Al-Queda is absolutely fractured and beyond crippled. Has been for years. Never believe an Intel report that plays it safe. If the CIA reported how wrecked the Al-Queda network is and the next day an attack occurs somewhere in the world with individuals claiming Al-Queda influence, then people would get fired and the CIA got ridiculed in the media. These type reports released to the public are always inaccurate and will always play it safe. It's always better to predict failure and to be wrong then predict success and be wrong.

Oh, while I don't consider any of it the gospel, I would be wary of being too confident, and not only for the reasons you note above. I would also add that actions other than the invasions likely hurt them more.


Bush's rational was for the public because like so many other things, the public needs a simple answer to deal with a complex issue. Spreading Democracy creates an environment where issues like "terrorism" are more manageable. Nobody ever stated that all terrorism will end when people vote. This was always a false argument used by the Left because they didn't have the creativity to actually make arguments about the whole affair. And today we see Conservatives doing the same thing against Obama.

Yes, it was for the public, thus less than truthful. A lie if you will.

But I don't believe it makes in more manageable. In fact, the opposite. Freedom, freedom of movement, of association, privacy, all of that makes management more difficult and not less. So, I don't think freedom helps is in terms of terrorism. it may help in other areas, but not terrorism.

As for think tanks, you're right. I noted myself that it wasn't the gospel. It just made more sense than the rationale given to the public. I was not arguing they had it down or had inside information.

I also think words like necessary and last resort have actual meanings. Choice is a different word with a different meaning. To our favor, doesn't mean necessary. Just because something might work to our favor (or not as it too often turns out) cannot really be argued as necessary. War is serious business. Asking young men and women to die is serious. The standard for saying it is necessary should be high. There is something called just war theory, and that type of rationale, as a standard works better than ad hoc efforts. Having a standard, having core values, these help us when faced with more difficult choices. It also prevents us from trying to contort language into meanings the words don't mean, and unreasonable into reasonable.





I don't know what I am.

Well, I'm not one to judge for you. But I think too contorting is being done to twist anything into counting. I don't think anything in the constitution supports aggression or imperialism. I would be interested in either showing it to me in the constitution, or showing how our actions were not aggressive, and not imperialistic. After all, our interests does not mean those countries attacked us. The fact is we invaded and conquered two countries and neither attacked us.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Oh, while I don't consider any of it the gospel, I would be wary of being too confident, and not only for the reasons you note above. I would also add that actions other than the invasions likely hurt them more.

Absolutely. The invasion was to wreck their host base. The real damage came from military and CIA work outside of Afghanistan and around the globe. But drama likes an invasion so that's what the media clings to.


Yes, it was for the public, thus less than truthful. A lie if you will.

Sure. I'll give you that. But I accept lying if it allows our leaders to maneuver around this media hostile world in order to protect.

But I don't believe it makes in more manageable. In fact, the opposite. Freedom, freedom of movement, of association, privacy, all of that makes management more difficult and not less. So, I don't think freedom helps is in terms of terrorism. it may help in other areas, but not terrorism.

I don't understand how you can't believe this. There is no coincidence that the only region on earth that hosts thousands of terrorist organizations throughout also lingers in oppression and dictatorship. On the other hand, while there are individual terrorists here and there in the West looking to be a douche, there are hardly any terrorist organizations rallying and preaching military reactions from the populations over fueled hatreds. he closest we have is a political Party preaching venom through a microphone that may or may not be elected. The grand difference is that one part of the world has a political outlet to air out grievances, while the other has no political outlet other than to coup, rebel, or terrorize. Throw God into the mix and you begin to breed Apocalyptic Terrorists and their organizations. And given the social and environmental troubles of this region (lack of education, lack of fresh water per capita, economic ruin, etc.) only democracy has proven in history to be able to deal with these matters. I believe a democracy allows for everything to be manageable.

I also think words like necessary and last resort have actual meanings. Choice is a different word with a different meaning. To our favor, doesn't mean necessary. Just because something might work to our favor (or not as it too often turns out) cannot really be argued as necessary. War is serious business. Asking young men and women to die is serious. The standard for saying it is necessary should be high. There is something called just war theory, and that type of rationale, as a standard works better than ad hoc efforts. Having a standard, having core values, these help us when faced with more difficult choices. It also prevents us from trying to contort language into meanings the words don't mean, and unreasonable into reasonable.

I think these terms merely allow politicians to convince the public that they are legitimate in their choices. "War as a last resort" isn't a resort. It's their failure. But like I have stated, we have engaged in combat with enemies, far more over economic security than as an act to physically defend America. How do you convince a public that conflict is necessary if you weren's attacked? Most can't seem to fathom how their local store gets stocked with food. It all needs resources that comes from all over the world. Imagine a war with China. Militarily we would be fine, but our two nations would be crippled because of the inability to protect economy.


Well, I'm not one to judge for you.

You are an American citizen, trusting people to go forth and represent you without hacking the heads off of foriegners. I would say that gives you license to ask questions, express opinions, and demand professionalism.

But I think too contorting is being done to twist anything into counting. I don't think anything in the constitution supports aggression or imperialism. I would be interested in either showing it to me in the constitution, or showing how our actions were not aggressive, and not imperialistic. After all, our interests does not mean those countries attacked us. The fact is we invaded and conquered two countries and neither attacked us.

Exactly my point. Without being physically attacked, Americans can't fathom the need to preserve global order. And we learned real fast in our history that the instability of foreign regions directly affects our way of life. It began with the Spanish~American War and has thus far taken us up to the invasion of Iraq. None of this is as simple as 1+1=2. And rememeber, nothing we have done in our history has been about a single country. It has always been about the region. You have to throw all kinds of curveballs, smiley faces, and division signs to identify how a foreign empire cracking down on a neighbor's ability to produce rubber affects coal miners in Western Virginia. Or going to war to invade Libya over pirates because our new nation can't afford to pay ransoms in order to get our goods through a sea zone. And I know you don't like it, but if our trades weren't being so adversely affected, Roosevelt would have had to use bigger words than "democracy and freedom" to get us into Europe.

Oil, as I'm sure you would agree, is vastly important to the entire world. We know that Russians were a huge factor in defeating Germany, but many don't realize that it was the Brits that strangled Germany of their oil import. The inability to continue manufacturing their military was huge to the war effort. The Soviets immediately sought to control the oil fields in the Middle East after the World War. This began our Cold War dictator party in the region. Most of the Cold War was really about preventing the Soviet Union with the resources to produce vast miltaries. And our relationships with the leaders of the Middle East today absolutely had everyting to do with ridding them of their thorn in Iraq who proved that he was determined to be a belligerent well into his old age. We need the oil to flow. Our nation (and the world) runs on it. But if we can do it without the use of dictators then we should because that is what we are supposed to do as a nation that preaches democracy and higher moral authority. We fail everytime we have an opportunity to get rid of them. And we fail because people automatically fall back on "but, we weren't attacked."
 
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Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Absolutely. The invasion was to wreck their host base. The real damage came from military and CIA work outside of Afghanistan and around the globe. But drama likes an invasion so that's what the media clings to.

Yes drama sells, but let's not forget cost. The invasion cost, a lot. Especially in Iraq where there really wasn't any such base.


Sure. I'll give you that. But I accept lying if it allows our leaders to maneuver around this media hostile world in order to protect.

You're one of the few.



I don't understand how you can't believe this. There is no coincidence that the only region on earth that hosts thousands of terrorist organizations throughout also lingers in oppression and dictatorship. On the other hand, while there are individual terrorists here and there in the West looking to be a douche, there are hardly any terrorist organizations rallying and preaching military reactions from the populations over fueled hatreds. he closest we have is a political Party preaching venom through a microphone that may or may not be elected. The grand difference is that one part of the world has a political outlet to air out grievances, while the other has no political outlet other than to coup, rebel, or terrorize. Throw God into the mix and you begin to breed Apocalyptic Terrorists and their organizations. And given the social and environmental troubles of this region (lack of education, lack of fresh water per capita, economic ruin, etc.) only democracy has proven in history to be able to deal with these matters. I believe a democracy allows for everything to be manageable.

The region house them even where there is democracy, even where we have allies. Iraq for example had them relatively under control. We've had a difficult time. And democracy in Brittian didn't slow terrorism. I think you're looking at the wrong factor for the problem. There is no proven history that shows democracy deals with this problem. This is one of the major misconcoptions people hold on this issue.

I think these terms merely allow politicians to convince the public that they are legitimate in their choices. "War as a last resort" isn't a resort. It's their failure. But like I have stated, we have engaged in combat with enemies, far more over economic security than as an act to physically defend America. How do you convince a public that conflict is necessary if you weren's attacked? Most can't seem to fathom how their local store gets stocked with food. It all needs resources that comes from all over the world. Imagine a war with China. Militarily we would be fine, but our two nations would be crippled because of the inability to protect economy.

I think we have always been wron to engage only over economic issues. And while I agree with what we need, we have to right to think of what others have as ours. No more than I can think what is at market here is mine, and thus go take it, we should not take from others what we don't negotiate.

You are an American citizen, trusting people to go forth and represent you without hacking the heads off of foriegners. I would say that gives you license to ask questions, express opinions, and demand professionalism.

I agree, but I think I meant that on a more personal level.

Exactly my point. Without being physically attacked, Americans can't fathom the need to preserve global order. And we learned real fast in our history that the instability of foreign regions directly affects our way of life. It began with the Spanish~American War and has thus far taken us up to the invasion of Iraq. None of this is as simple as 1+1=2. And rememeber, nothing we have done in our history has been about a single country. It has always been about the region. You have to throw all kinds of curveballs, smiley faces, and division signs to identify how a foreign empire cracking down on a neighbor's ability to produce rubber affects coal miners in Western Virginia. Or going to war to invade Libya over pirates because our new nation can't afford to pay ransoms in order to get our goods through a sea zone. And I know you don't like it, but if our trades weren't being so adversely affected, Roosevelt would have had to use bigger words than "democracy and freedom" to get us into Europe.

Oil, as I'm sure you would agree, is vastly important to the entire world. We know that Russians were a huge factor in defeating Germany, but many don't realize that it was the Brits that strangled Germany of their oil import. The inability to continue manufacturing their military was huge to the war effort. The Soviets immediately sought to control the oil fields in the Middle East after the World War. This began our Cold War dictator party in the region. Most of the Cold War was really about preventing the Soviet Union with the resources to produce vast miltaries. And our relationships with the leaders of the Middle East today absolutely had everyting to do with ridding them of their thorn in Iraq who proved that he was determined to be a belligerent well into his old age. We need the oil to flow. Our nation (and the world) runs on it. But if we can do it without the use of dictators then we should because that is what we are supposed to do as a nation that preaches democracy and higher moral authority. We fail everytime we have an opportunity to get rid of them. And we fail because people automatically fall back on "but, we weren't attacked."

But that oil isn't ours. What feeds terrorism to a large degree is that we think it is. We behave like it is. So, while you may get a majority willing to forsake any moral notion of right and wrong, that only means they lack a moral center, and that as a nation, we lack one as well. I believe those countries need us and much as wee need them. There has to be a way other than war, and you are right, it is a failure if war is what we do.
 
IMO, if France feels military intervention in Syria is in France's national interest, France can pursue that course. However, I do not believe the Security Council should authorize military intervention in a de facto civil war. Certainly, I don't believe the U.S. should be involved. No major U.S. interests are at stake and no neighboring U.S. allies have requested U.S. intervention.

Right now, a cruel authoritarian regime is confronted by elements whose pursuit of power may well have much more to do with removing the minority Alawite regime from power than any of its claims toward liberal values. Regime change does not assure an immediate dawn of a democratic era. At the same time, it can impact the balance of power in a fashion that promotes regional instability.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Yes drama sells, but let's not forget cost. The invasion cost, a lot. Especially in Iraq where there really wasn't any such base.

That's because Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Queda and everything to do with the Middle East and the future. In the big picture, Al-Queda is only a symptom of a larger disease.



You're one of the few.

I think I'm just more bold about my honesty out loud. Most people have a very high moral opinion of themselves and they project that outward. What they don't acknowledge is that much of that high moral code comes from convenience. I always feel like a liar or a hypocrit if I don't acknowledge that. It's easy to call the leader of the free world, with billions of people weighing on his shoulders, a liar. It makes the accusor feel larger. As long as the man's not "criminal" in his maneuvering I believe he is doing what is necessary.





The region house them even where there is democracy, even where we have allies. Iraq for example had them relatively under control. We've had a difficult time. And democracy in Brittian didn't slow terrorism. I think you're looking at the wrong factor for the problem. There is no proven history that shows democracy deals with this problem. This is one of the major misconcoptions people hold on this issue.

No, history is the evidence. What are you talking about in Britian? The Irish were outside the British democracy and were more Revolutionaries than terrorists. Though the IRA conducted some terrorist acts, labeling them a terrorist organization came smoother out of the tongues of the British elite. You can carve the world out and see distinct behaviors among the societies and democracy is a very huge factor. The only other factor is a dictator that is good at his job. But how long does a dictator last? We can see from the Arab Spring that they only last until the people get fed up. Only people last and this is why a democracy can handle the dynamism that is needed to create prosperous and advancing civilizations. A democracy creates the environment for economic growth (Soviet Union failed), heathy religious competition (MENA is failing), healthy political change (choose any South American coup, humanitarian needs (choose any African model). This is why instead of fearing this Arab Spring we need to embrace it and support it how ever they stumble along the way. The Middle east continues to be the only region on earth that is unstable and former dictators only offerred a temorary solution. In the end they die, get ousted, or create an environment that breeds our enemies.

This is all clear evidence. It's only in the West and in parts of Asia where people have healthy outlets to affect change in their destinies that we find societies working together and defining what we consider a "civilized" people. Hundreds of years have been spent by people around the globe defying monarchies and dictators. They have all chosen democracy as the other option. Those that chose communism couldn't fathom that Marxis't's dream was impractical until it was too late. Now even many of those have chosen democracy. This is because history provides plenty of proof that people can deal far better with the needs of a civilization than a single selfish ruler. There is no misconception here. This doesn't mean we have a right to force it anywhere. But if we take a dictator out, we have an obligation to provide the path of opportunity rather than propping in the next dictator as if the Cold War still exists. We just don't live in that world anywmore. The problem here, as I see it, is that our Washington leaders and all their constituents don't understand the historical eras.


I think we have always been wrong to engage only over economic issues. And while I agree with what we need, we have to right to think of what others have as ours. No more than I can think what is at market here is mine, and thus go take it, we should not take from others what we don't negotiate.

Resources flow all over the globe via business deals and government dealings. We pay the government of Saudi Arabia quite handsomly for oil. If that government decided to treat their people better then we wouldn't stop them because despote the criticism, we really don't get involved with soveriegn rules. It's just business in a world full of different perspectives and values. This world won't allow anybody to be pure. But at least we can have comfort in the fact that we don't rape. We do have a theme of higher moral code in our actions. We took out the Japanese and capped it with a couple atomic bombs...then we went on to develop them into such a modern prosperous state that the Yen was catching the Dollar in the 80s. We continued the war in Korea for almost two years over the subject of prisoner repatriation , which was the first time in recorded history because we were in a global power position that we could afford to seek the most out of our higher moral authority. We hung around Vietnam far longer than we should have because we felt obligated to protect the people of South Vietnam. "No War for Oil" was the protestor's cry over freeing Kuwait, but they seem to ignore that all of Kuwait was, indeed, freed. Republicans criticized President Clinton for his humanitarian projects in Bosnia and Kosovo, but not dealing with those had grave implications to European economy if gone unchecked for too long. And people have plenty of criticism about Afghanistan and Iraq (plenty understandable), but even that came with a theme of democratization and humane support.

So I don't think we have ever really engaged over just economy. Though it is the basic motivator in even our history, we also see how our values, applied to foriegn regions, benefits us.

But that oil isn't ours. What feeds terrorism to a large degree is that we think it is. We behave like it is. So, while you may get a majority willing to forsake any moral notion of right and wrong, that only means they lack a moral center, and that as a nation, we lack one as well. I believe those countries need us and much as wee need them. There has to be a way other than war, and you are right, it is a failure if war is what we do.

It's as much our oil as a Nike shoe made in South America is. It's all business and we pay for it. Were someone in that country not selling it we wouldn't be buying it. Did you know that the U.S. is producing more crude oil and, for the first time in decades, has become a net exporter of petroleum products? Is this because someone out there is buying what we are selling? This makes it there's.

Sauds produce oil, barrel it, send it across the ocean through sea zones we protect, and cut a very sizable check. And the vast majority of all of this comes without war. It's called doing business with the governments that can't protect itself against other governments and against their own belligerants. But this is where we find that other moral flip of the coin. Business with a dictator? Support Hussein against Khomeini? Support Mubarak in Egypt? Ship goods in from China? People criticize us for our few dictator dealings as well. For this, we are supposed to not be allowed to talk about democracy in Iraq because somehow that makes us "hypocritical" in a world that demands hypocracy or a never ending state of war. Once again, I submit that we have very solid and good reasons to support democracy in the Middle East where our business ties must continue. And if this Arab Spring turns out stable enough, we will have even less dictators supported and we will have done it without war.
 
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IMO, if France feels military intervention in Syria is in France's national interest, France can pursue that course. However, I do not believe the Security Council should authorize military intervention in a de facto civil war. Certainly, I don't believe the U.S. should be involved. No major U.S. interests are at stake and no neighboring U.S. allies have requested U.S. intervention.

Right now, a cruel authoritarian regime is confronted by elements whose pursuit of power may well have much more to do with removing the minority Alawite regime from power than any of its claims toward liberal values. Regime change does not assure an immediate dawn of a democratic era. At the same time, it can impact the balance of power in a fashion that promotes regional instability.

I praise temporary instability in the MENA in order to correct the illusion provided from temporary stability.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

That's because Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Queda and everything to do with the Middle East and the future. In the big picture, Al-Queda is only a symptom of a larger disease.

I think this is a case of missing diagnosing. Iraq as a country, with a dictator, as brutal as he was, was not the symptom of the terrorist disease. At least not in that if you treat the symptom you effect the disease. In medicine, we know that sometimes we treat a symptom and think it is the disease, only to later see the patient suffer or die due to the mistake. It is sometimes better to go past the symptom and attack the disease directly. In any case, no matter how we work this metaphor, nothing about invading Iraq treats the disease of terrorism.



I think I'm just more bold about my honesty out loud. Most people have a very high moral opinion of themselves and they project that outward. What they don't acknowledge is that much of that high moral code comes from convenience. I always feel like a liar or a hypocrit if I don't acknowledge that. It's easy to call the leader of the free world, with billions of people weighing on his shoulders, a liar. It makes the accusor feel larger. As long as the man's not "criminal" in his maneuvering I believe he is doing what is necessary.

There's some truth to that. Sure, people too often fall short. Which is one good reason to have clear standard to guide us.






No, history is the evidence. What are you talking about in Britian? The Irish were outside the British democracy and were more Revolutionaries than terrorists. Though the IRA conducted some terrorist acts, labeling them a terrorist organization came smoother out of the tongues of the British elite. You can carve the world out and see distinct behaviors among the societies and democracy is a very huge factor. The only other factor is a dictator that is good at his job. But how long does a dictator last? We can see from the Arab Spring that they only last until the people get fed up. Only people last and this is why a democracy can handle the dynamism that is needed to create prosperous and advancing civilizations. A democracy creates the environment for economic growth (Soviet Union failed), heathy religious competition (MENA is failing), healthy political change (choose any South American coup, humanitarian needs (choose any African model). This is why instead of fearing this Arab Spring we need to embrace it and support it how ever they stumble along the way. The Middle east continues to be the only region on earth that is unstable and former dictators only offerred a temorary solution. In the end they die, get ousted, or create an environment that breeds our enemies.

This is all clear evidence. It's only in the West and in parts of Asia where people have healthy outlets to affect change in their destinies that we find societies working together and defining what we consider a "civilized" people. Hundreds of years have been spent by people around the globe defying monarchies and dictators. They have all chosen democracy as the other option. Those that chose communism couldn't fathom that Marxis't's dream was impractical until it was too late. Now even many of those have chosen democracy. This is because history provides plenty of proof that people can deal far better with the needs of a civilization than a single selfish ruler. There is no misconception here. This doesn't mean we have a right to force it anywhere. But if we take a dictator out, we have an obligation to provide the path of opportunity rather than propping in the next dictator as if the Cold War still exists. We just don't live in that world anywmore. The problem here, as I see it, is that our Washington leaders and all their constituents don't understand the historical eras.

I think by definition terrorist are outside. And that they consider themselves revolutionaries, so I see no real difference between the two.

And that people get fed up with a dictator doesn't change what I've said. Terrorism is a different animal. We are seeing terrorism because people are fed up with dictators. We have people who fear their beliefs are being attacked, that their resources are being taken by others, depriving them of the benefits of those resources.

However, you have to show as evidence that terrorism stopped Wherever there a democracy came in. There is no such evidence. Hell, we still can see terrorism here. Remember McVey? What about the KKK? You don't have to be a brutal dictator to find folks who will let hate dictate their actions. However, a free country does allow more freedom of movement and association, and makes combating them even harder. Freedom isn't cheap.



So I don't think we have ever really engaged over just economy. Though it is the basic motivator in even our history, we also see how our values, applied to foriegn regions, benefits us.

However that is the point of dispute. If there is a valid reason for conflict, that is another story. If it is economic, that isn't a valid rationale. If we accept that we don't need to be threatened, face aggression, and merely seek to make all nations fall into the line we desire, we become the evil empire.

It's as much our oil as a Nike shoe made in South America is. It's all business and we pay for it. Were someone in that country not selling it we wouldn't be buying it. Did you know that the U.S. is producing more crude oil and, for the first time in decades, has become a net exporter of petroleum products? Is this because someone out there is buying what we are selling? This makes it there's.

Sauds produce oil, barrel it, send it across the ocean through sea zones we protect, and cut a very sizable check. And the vast majority of all of this comes without war. It's called doing business with the governments that can't protect itself against other governments and against their own belligerants. But this is where we find that other moral flip of the coin. Business with a dictator? Support Hussein against Khomeini? Support Mubarak in Egypt? Ship goods in from China? People criticize us for our few dictator dealings as well. For this, we are supposed to not be allowed to talk about democracy in Iraq because somehow that makes us "hypocritical" in a world that demands hypocracy or a never ending state of war. Once again, I submit that we have very solid and good reasons to support democracy in the Middle East where our business ties must continue. And if this Arab Spring turns out stable enough, we will have even less dictators supported and we will have done it without war.

Only when done in business, traded, sold, agreed up on. But to use force to take, or to put in people who will work with us, is a different equation all together. Yes, as we cannot run the world, we may have to do business with China. And in doing so, we can show our way is better, enter the market place of ideas (once a popular conservative phrase), and win the war of ideas. But we will not invade China, and we will stop trading with them, no matter what abuses they do, and that is where the hypocracy comes in, in that we'll use force in one place making the argument of threatening our economy (the same argument Saddam made concerning Kuwait BTW), but fold with China.

The point is, it is wrong to invade with a country actually threatening to attack us, or actually attacking us.
 
IMO, if France feels military intervention in Syria is in France's national interest, France can pursue that course. However, I do not believe the Security Council should authorize military intervention in a de facto civil war. Certainly, I don't believe the U.S. should be involved. No major U.S. interests are at stake and no neighboring U.S. allies have requested U.S. intervention.

Right now, a cruel authoritarian regime is confronted by elements whose pursuit of power may well have much more to do with removing the minority Alawite regime from power than any of its claims toward liberal values. Regime change does not assure an immediate dawn of a democratic era. At the same time, it can impact the balance of power in a fashion that promotes regional instability.

Who requested our help in Libya, and what major US interests were there? Just curious.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

I think this is a case of missing diagnosing. Iraq as a country, with a dictator, as brutal as he was, was not the symptom of the terrorist disease.

Stop looking at the man and the country. This is a region. The entire region is the disease and needs to change. Saddam Hussein wasn't secure from this because he had his people on proper lock down. But despite our UN rules that permitted this lock down, he still rushed his military to borders and flew his jets into allied air space provoking an ever escallating build up of our military to defend Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. This, in turn, gave Bin Laden and all the many different religious organizations throughout the region an excuse for terror. If the region was to change, it had to start with ousting "our" dictator. I don't think it is a misdiagnoses at all. What is impractical is the idea that the entire region could change, except for Saddam Hussein's terrority.

There are so many ways to see this. Consider the Cold War. Did we face the Soviet Union by invading Moscow? No. We used a term called "rollback" and attacked communism at the fringes. It didn't work too well, but one thing was sure...there was no way to bruise the Soviet Union by marching on Moscow. Now look at the Middle East. People are fond of stating that most of the 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia or Egypt. This is, of course, true. It is also true that most of the extremist base come from writings and works that stem from the Saudi and Egyptian populations. However, it is also true that Al-Queda was just the orhcestrator of 9/11. Dealing with this problem means dealing with the hundreds of terrorist organizations that threaten allies constantly and serve to preserve the hate that so many Muslims are reminded of daily in that region just for their idea of Islam. But can we send our troops into Riyadh or Cairo? Hell no. But we can apply a sense of "rollback" to the fringes of Islam. Our attempts to bring instant democracy and peace to Iraq was highly impractical and it was never going to be easy, because of the population fractures that exists. But we did have to get rid of him and it did offer a source of pressure for surrounding governments, which is why they freely allowed their Sunni fighters to enter in order to disrupt as much progress as possible. But this Arab Spring that kicked off in North Africa and spread to the Middle East, was exactly what was needed in order to affect change. It's this pressure coming from the people that will force Saudi Arabia to bend. And after the peopple have taken control of their destinies and gotten past their fumbles, this "disease" that breeds religious fanatics by the legions will subside to a healthier place. It is a fact that no religious radical can thrive in a locale where the people have a choice. For the Middle East, the temporary immediate offering of support towards politically radical organizations should be understood, but this will pass fast enough. For evidence that lends credit to this theory, look to Turkey. Though it is not an Arab state, this is an Islami country that has experimented with democracy since the 1920s. They constantly have to deal with religious groups seeking religious rule, but in the end, how many terrorist organizations threaten anybody outside of Turkey? This is because Turks have accepted that blaming a "foriegn devil" doesn't work in a democracy where you have to look in the mirror. Right now, Arab nations have the convenience of shoving all their civilizational failures and responsibilies elsewhere. Hence..the disease that creates symptoms like Bin Laden.


And that people get fed up with a dictator doesn't change what I've said. Terrorism is a different animal. We are seeing terrorism because people are fed up with dictators. We have people who fear their beliefs are being attacked, that their resources are being taken by others, depriving them of the benefits of those resources.

We are seeing religious terrorism because Islam, as an organizing tool, has failed in the modern age. Everything else is an excuse. For an example just re-read Osama Bin Laden's "justifications" for 9/11. He used the "children of Iraq" as one of the excuses. I guess he didn't care about the children in Sudan when he was a guest during the genocide that murdered non-Arab children. As for resources, it is Muslims that drill, barrel, and sell to the world. It is Muslims that oppress their own, with radical groups merely seeking to oppress in a different manner. With Bashir in Sudan, the Lebanese Civil War, Black September, the many Sunni that enetered Iraq to kill Shia, and the many terrorist organizationsaround the region that seek to murder either a Sunni or a Shia, it should be clear that instead of catering to the idea that a foreign devil is the source of their problems, they should be looking in a mirror. They will use any excuse they can to try to create a practical sense for their behaviors in order to help us relate to their plight, but the truth is that they simply can't cope with the failures that they have created for themselves. The tighter they cling to Islam the tighter the noose.

However, you have to show as evidence that terrorism stopped Wherever there a democracy came in.

This is not true at all. You are still trying to use the argument that the War on Terror was and is about erasing terrorism completely. This was never the case. This was never stated by anybody and if it was, in a speech, then it was taken out of context. The goal is to deal with the out of control terror throughout the Middle East. There is a huge difference between McVeigh and the hundreds of terrorist organizations in the Middle East. And the huge difference between the KKK and any terrorist organization in the Middle East is that our government cracked them apart until they turned into an old man's social club. People do not stand for their governments behaving badly if they have the power to guide it. Currently, terrorist organizations are simply left alone as long as their terror gets exported. Governments that need the people to focus their hatreds and attentions elsewhere will and do accomodate the hatred that their religious organizations preach.

Do you argue that a "War on Crime" is supposed to simply end crime? It is just a convenient name to call attention to a new found focus in order to make it more manageable. The War on Terror is generational and its aim is to deal with the Middle East expressly.


Only when done in business, traded, sold, agreed up on. But to use force to take, or to put in people who will work with us, is a different equation all together.

And where do we do this?

The point is, it is wrong to invade with a country actually threatening to attack us, or actually attacking us.

I disagree. I tend to believe in a first strike to prevent the attack. I also believe in correcting wrongs and preserving Hussein so that he could go back and murder, torture and starve his people for over a decade was wrong.
 
Who requested our help in Libya, and what major US interests were there? Just curious.

The MENA is a major US interest. Why do you people insist on disecting this region apart into borders? The "Islamic Community" sees man made borders only. There is a reason the 20th century shows us three distinct time frames where all Arab nations followed one after another into the same place.

I have never understood this. We can appreaciae that France and Germany are two seperate nations, but we also accept that "EUROPE" is important and vital to our interests. Why then do we refuse the same truth about MENA?
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Stop looking at the man and the country. This is a region. The entire region is the disease and needs to change.
But the disease isn't dictatorship. It can't be cured by invasion. This is the point I'm trying to make. We do not combat the disease of terrorism by invasion and democracy anymore than we cure Anemia with leeches.




We are seeing religious terrorism because Islam, as an organizing tool, has failed in the modern age. Everything else is an excuse. For an example just re-read Osama Bin Laden's "justifications" for 9/11. He used the "children of Iraq" as one of the excuses. I guess he didn't care about the children in Sudan when he was a guest during the genocide that murdered non-Arab children. As for resources, it is Muslims that drill, barrel, and sell to the world. It is Muslims that oppress their own, with radical groups merely seeking to oppress in a different manner. With Bashir in Sudan, the Lebanese Civil War, Black September, the many Sunni that enetered Iraq to kill Shia, and the many terrorist organizationsaround the region that seek to murder either a Sunni or a Shia, it should be clear that instead of catering to the idea that a foreign devil is the source of their problems, they should be looking in a mirror. They will use any excuse they can to try to create a practical sense for their behaviors in order to help us relate to their plight, but the truth is that they simply can't cope with the failures that they have created for themselves. The tighter they cling to Islam the tighter the noose.

That may or may not be, but again, the secular dictator is the cause. And they see us as 1) helping the oppression, and 2) doing so because we think their resources belong to us. In that context, invading and setting up any government, no matter how friendly, seems to prove their case.


This is not true at all. You are still trying to use the argument that the War on Terror was and is about erasing terrorism completely. This was never the case. This was never stated by anybody and if it was, in a speech, then it was taken out of context. The goal is to deal with the out of control terror throughout the Middle East. There is a huge difference between McVeigh and the hundreds of terrorist organizations in the Middle East. And the huge difference between the KKK and any terrorist organization in the Middle East is that our government cracked them apart until they turned into an old man's social club. People do not stand for their governments behaving badly if they have the power to guide it. Currently, terrorist organizations are simply left alone as long as their terror gets exported. Governments that need the people to focus their hatreds and attentions elsewhere will and do accomodate the hatred that their religious organizations preach.

Do you argue that a "War on Crime" is supposed to simply end crime? It is just a convenient name to call attention to a new found focus in order to make it more manageable. The War on Terror is generational and its aim is to deal with the Middle East expressly.

No, I am not arguing that it ends all terrorism. But to say there is a connection, you have to show a connection. There is no evidence I know of that democracy slows, hinders, lessens terrorism at all.



And where do we do this?

There are those who will argue Iraq. Iraq met no other critieria for invasion. No letigimate critieria.

I disagree. I tend to believe in a first strike to prevent the attack. I also believe in correcting wrongs and preserving Hussein so that he could go back and murder, torture and starve his people for over a decade was wrong.

You have to have reason to believe there will be an attack. There was no such reason to believe in one from either country.
 
The MENA is a major US interest. Why do you people insist on disecting this region apart into borders? The "Islamic Community" sees man made borders only. There is a reason the 20th century shows us three distinct time frames where all Arab nations followed one after another into the same place.

I have never understood this. We can appreaciae that France and Germany are two seperate nations, but we also accept that "EUROPE" is important and vital to our interests. Why then do we refuse the same truth about MENA?

I guess this would be one of the few areas we disagree.

I don't consider any nation anywhere, regardless of location or politics or economy, to be "vital" to our interests.

That doesn't mean I'm not in favor of having trade with them, or supporting them when it happens to be advantageous. But that doesn't mean they are vital. Europe right now is on the brink of absolute destruction because of their socialistic policies.

If Europe crashes into 3rd world status, the USA can, and will continue on into the future without them. We have trade with south America which is largely growing, and of course Asia, and even Russia is mildly starting to get back on their feet.

Europe is not vital to us at all. And nor is anyone.

It's kind of like my extended family. I have some great people in my extended family, and I wish them the best. But some are flushing their lives down the drains. I think every family has a few crazy people. But those people, as important as they might be, are not vital. I will survive even if they crash and burn. Same is true internationally.
 
I guess this would be one of the few areas we disagree.

I don't consider any nation anywhere, regardless of location or politics or economy, to be "vital" to our interests.

Why? Some nations have far more significance than others when it comes to U.S. interests.

While I agree with MSgt that the MENA is a vital U.S. interest (access to oil is vital to the U.S./U.S. allies/world economy, all of which have a bearing on the U.S.), I disagree that the existence of such interests applies to every country and every situation. If Iran were to threaten Saudi Arabia or threaten to block the Strait of Hormuz, vital U.S. interests would be threatened. Disappearnace of a significant share of oil from the world market would greatly and adversely impact the U.S. economy and U.S. living standards. The U.S. would act regardless of whether the President was a Democrat or Republican.

What's happening in Syria, though, has little impact. It poses no threat to stability in U.S. allies such as Israel and Jordan. Indeed, there is some concern that a successful toppling of the cruel dictatorship in Damascus might lead to a regime that is more hostile to Israel and Jordan, with its favoring the significant Palestinian population in Jordan at the expense of the Monarchy that it might view as illegitimate. Furthermore, events in Syria do not threaten U.S./global access to oil nor do they threaten the region's overall balance of power. Hence, when it comes to Syria, I don't believe the U.S. should intervene in the civil conflict. Sympathies alone do not trump the lack of compelling interests.

If Europe crashes into 3rd world status, the USA can, and will continue on into the future without them. We have trade with south America which is largely growing, and of course Asia, and even Russia is mildly starting to get back on their feet.

Europe is not vital to us at all. And nor is anyone.

The collapse of Europe create major balance of power issues, not to mention the elimination of relationships that are based on widespread shared interests. It would be very damaging to the U.S. Geopolitics is not just about economics. Access to other countries' economies via trade or investment does not make those countries perfect or even good substitutes for relationships with other countries. Existing U.S. allies would correctly conclude that U.S. indifference to Europe means that the U.S. would treat them in similar fashion. In other words, U.S. commitments were cynical and expedient, nothing more. Hence, they would properly recalibrate their interests and the U.S. would find itself largely abandoned, still formidable but much less relevant. No U.S. President can or will be indifferent were Europe to face such an outcome.

In the end, assuming that the U.S. has no vital interests does not make such a situation true. The isolationism/neo-isolationism that would result from such a posture would damage U.S. interests (erosion of relationships, changed balance of power, increased instability, etc.). A strategic foreign policy need not be activist to the point where the U.S. intervenes in civil conflicts wherever they break out whenever elements involved invoke democracy. IMO, the U.S. should not have intervened in Libya. The country today is no more democratic than it was under Gadhafi, there's some evidence of scattered political retribution/persecution campaigns, it's drifting toward renewed civil conflict, and the new regime has still protected the Lockerbie bomber. Similarly, the U.S. should not intervene in Syria in a conflict that likely has much more to do with the goal of toppling the minority Alawite regime than creating liberal democracy. In contrast, given Al Qaeda's 9/11 attack, the U.S. should have intervened in Afghanistan when the Taliban regime chose to protect Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
 
Why? Some nations have far more significance than others when it comes to U.S. interests.

While I agree with MSgt that the MENA is a vital U.S. interest (access to oil is vital to the U.S./U.S. allies/world economy, all of which have a bearing on the U.S.), I disagree that the existence of such interests applies to every country and every situation. If Iran were to threaten Saudi Arabia or threaten to block the Strait of Hormuz, vital U.S. interests would be threatened. Disappearnace of a significant share of oil from the world market would greatly and adversely impact the U.S. economy and U.S. living standards. The U.S. would act regardless of whether the President was a Democrat or Republican.

What's happening in Syria, though, has little impact. It poses no threat to stability in U.S. allies such as Israel and Jordan. Indeed, there is some concern that a successful toppling of the cruel dictatorship in Damascus might lead to a regime that is more hostile to Israel and Jordan, with its favoring the significant Palestinian population in Jordan at the expense of the Monarchy that it might view as illegitimate. Furthermore, events in Syria do not threaten U.S./global access to oil nor do they threaten the region's overall balance of power. Hence, when it comes to Syria, I don't believe the U.S. should intervene in the civil conflict. Sympathies alone do not trump the lack of compelling interests.

And that's where the rub comes. If we knew for a fact that doing X in whatever location would benefit the US, then perhaps I could see going into a situation. But the problem is, we don't. Saddam was a perfect example. When we first supported his efforts, it seemed like he would be a pro-western, pro-America, pro-peace leader. Obviously that isn't how it turned out. Although ignorant people still deny this, Saddam became a large security threat to the US, and thus had to be dealt with.

So in a vain effort to protect "American Interest" we ended up with a national defense threat. That's not an even trade in my book, especially since we ultimately didn't need to protect our "interests" in Iraq. We were buying oil from Iraq right up to 2002, even with a hostile anti-American dictatorship in place.

Which begs the question, why do we need to interfere with non-security threats, for the sake of national interest.... if we are getting those resources through the free-market regardless of who is in power?

Thus far, I have yet to come up with, or hear a plausible reason for this. So why should we be involved at all with MENA or Europe, or anywhere? Any resource, whether oil or Uranium, is of absolutely no value unless it is sold. So what difference does it make if Gaddafi or some other person is in control of Libya, from a national interest perspective? I say, no difference.

The collapse of Europe create major balance of power issues, not to mention the elimination of relationships that are based on widespread shared interests. It would be very damaging to the U.S. Geopolitics is not just about economics. Access to other countries' economies via trade or investment does not make those countries perfect or even good substitutes for relationships with other countries. Existing U.S. allies would correctly conclude that U.S. indifference to Europe means that the U.S. would treat them in similar fashion. In other words, U.S. commitments were cynical and expedient, nothing more. Hence, they would properly recalibrate their interests and the U.S. would find itself largely abandoned, still formidable but much less relevant. No U.S. President can or will be indifferent were Europe to face such an outcome.

But again I say, how? If Europe crashes, there is nothing we could do to prevent that, except to fund their implosion, and thus crash ourselves with them. So how would we treat them any differently?

If anything, our non-indifference towards central and south Africa, has proved our intervention has done nothing productive. Which as a free-market capitalist, this doesn't surprise me one bit. By giving aide to these countries, we have allowed them to avoid making the tough choices needed to bring about a productive stable economy.

And I'd suggest we're seeing the same thing in Europe right now. Bailouts flying all over the place, which is simply allowing problematic governments to avoid making the serious cuts in spending needed to get their budget in order. As a result, the problem is simply spreading around, with now Spain and France are looking bad.

If people stopped bailing everyone else out, it would force countries to fix their problems themselves, which would end the crisis. But instead the opposite is happening.

I would suggest the best option we can do, is allow other countries to do as they choose, and deal with the consequences of those actions, for good or bad.
 
And that's where the rub comes. If we knew for a fact that doing X in whatever location would benefit the US, then perhaps I could see going into a situation. But the problem is, we don't.

In foreign policy, there's always an element of uncertainty. There's always nuance and ambiguity. Yet, a nation should have clear understanding of its interests and the kind of developments that could threaten those interests. It should also understand the balance of power involved and trends underway that could alter it. Management of the balance of power is a dynamic process. Access to Persian Gulf oil is a clear vital interest. There's little dispute as to what would happen if that supply were disrupted for an appreciable length of time. Hence, a logical commitment would be to ensure that access is safeguarded. Ensuring that the friendly suppliers have sufficient power to defend themselves is one element. Having contingency plans to intervene militarily if a hostile state attempts to block access is another.

Saddam was a perfect example. When we first supported his efforts, it seemed like he would be a pro-western, pro-America, pro-peace leader. Obviously that isn't how it turned out. Although ignorant people still deny this, Saddam became a large security threat to the US, and thus had to be dealt with.

Leaders should never be judged by our transposing our hopes and aspirations on them. Judgment should be based on a clear understanding of how they perceive their nation's interests and their capacity to pursue/advance those interests. Saddam Hussein was not pro-Western. Indeed, during much of the Cold War, he was actually sympathetic to the Soviet Union. U.S. policy shifted toward Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. In part, that war was a consequence of the U.S. having abandoned a generally reliable ally, leaving Iran to fall to radicals who had expressed anti-U.S. and anti-democratic aspirations and the emergence of a power vacuum. IMO, the U.S. made a similar blunder when it came to pushing aside President Musharraf in Pakistan.

So in a vain effort to protect "American Interest" we ended up with a national defense threat. That's not an even trade in my book, especially since we ultimately didn't need to protect our "interests" in Iraq. We were buying oil from Iraq right up to 2002, even with a hostile anti-American dictatorship in place.

There are lessons involved:

1. Never judge revolutions or events by the most idealistic outcome.
2. Pay careful attention to a leader's history (past actions) and judge him/her by concrete action, not words or hopes.
3. Don't abandon key allies with the hope that their successors will respect your interests. Often, they perceive the existence of the alliance as reason to radically change their country's policy.

Both in Iran and Pakistan, the U.S. could have worked behind the scenes with the Shah and Musharraf to promote gradual reform in a shape that is compatible with those countries' institutions, history, and culture. Instead, the U.S. assumed each time that the changes would lead to democracy. Today, Iran's people are no more free than they were under the Shah. Arguably, they're less free given the imposition of religious doctrine. Iran is also a hostile state and undertaking efforts that, if successful, could dramatically change the Middle East's balance of Power. Pakistan has a weak, ineffectual, corrupt and undemocratic regime. It is currently sliding toward failed state status and increasingly hostile to U.S. interests.

Which begs the question, why do we need to interfere with non-security threats, for the sake of national interest.... if we are getting those resources through the free-market regardless of who is in power?

Foreign policy doesn't require military intervention. Many other tools exist. Military intervention should be a last resort. Containment was a much less expensive option for dealing with Iraq and, ultimately as it turns out, a much more effective approach than had been assumed. Furthermore, leaders don't engage relationships for economic reasons, alone. There can be cases where their objectives contradict free market dynamics. Resource nationalism is one example.

Any resource, whether oil or Uranium, is of absolutely no value unless it is sold.
Resources are sold, because they are needed. If they weren't needed, there would be no demand and, thus, no price/value. Therefore, oil cannot have no value in today's world. Oil is needed. Moreover, global demand for oil is growing as the global economy expands.

If people stopped bailing everyone else out, it would force countries to fix their problems themselves...

Bailouts are a different matter. They entail benefits and risks. They also entail moral hazard. Yet, the cost of refraining from a bailout can sometimes be so excessive, that a bailout is pursued. The extraordinary support to prevent the collapse of the U.S. financial sector is one example. Had no action been taken, an unprecedented global depression would have unfolded.
 
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Re: France, suddenly has backbone

But the disease isn't dictatorship. It can't be cured by invasion. This is the point I'm trying to make. We do not combat the disease of terrorism by invasion and democracy anymore than we cure Anemia with leeches.

The disease is eveything that comes from dictator and religious oppression. Eventually, the lack of education, social support, creativity, freedom of politicial expression, freedom of religion, and economic depravity will create "rebels." But in a religious swamp like the Middle East, this rebellious streak will turn to God for answers. For too many, it is the infectius West and its modernity that infects God's people, so they design an enemy in us. And Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all too happy to allow them to hate on a "foriegn devil" rather than focus all hatred upon local government. For many of them, blaming the culture that has created this environment means blaming God. Since this will not do, God gets a pass. Who does that leave? It all stems from a disease that is social in nature. Imagine a starving Soviet Union, with the ability to arm nuclear weapons, but throw God into the mix. Their social problems have just become to much to bare.

But let's not exaggerate the invasion situation. We didn't invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Libya, etc. We invaded a hostile goverment that harbored and would continue to harbor an organization that attacked our soil quite violently and publicly. Then we invaded another hostile government that constantly threatened its neighbors and due to the UN mission was an obvious source of anger for Sunni extremists everywhere. This, by itself, was never going to reign in this region. But they did have everything to do with it. It wasn't until Arabs elsewhere took matters into their own hands that we started seeing this region head into a healthy direction. So invasion, by itslef didn't do it. But in the mean time, it was only a matter of time. Saudi Arabia had already bent to pressures and allowed low level elections for the first time in history among other firsts. Eventually a man tired of his social opressions and lit himself on fire in Tunisia. Then, as we have seen two other times in Arab history in the 20th century, one after another, other Arab states followed suit. Call Tunisia the "Arch Duke Ferdinand" event of the region and we can begin to see through the smoke.

I know your point. But your point relies on the idea that we are marching all over the region assaulting borders and planting flags in the name of Democracy. This isn't true. We dealt with the two antagonists that defined the dictator/religious theocracy status quo for Arabs. They both happen to have had intimate historical ties to us, which gave us obligation. Since Bush gave a speech to the UN about democracy spreading from a democratic Iraq, there was a sense of future path for this region. We can't deny this. Cultural experts were on to something. I won't take that away just because Rumsfeld was a douche and incapable of making sound decisions.


That may or may not be, but again, the secular dictator is the cause. And they see us as 1) helping the oppression, and 2) doing so because we think their resources belong to us. In that context, invading and setting up any government, no matter how friendly, seems to prove their case.

This is what I was writing just above. This disease stems from the environment dictators maintain. And we aren't talking about a single dictator or two. We are talking about a region full of dictators and religious oppression that we offer handshakes to. HOWEVER, this is 2012. The Cold War is long dead. What we did in the past does not have to be anymore. In fact, we haven't needed these dictators ever since the Berlin Wall came down. We have just been robots to our Cold War habits. Our relationship has been very apathetic and distant. Saddam Hussein was "our" dictator. No more. We gave the people what they have been wanting for two centuries. But what we learned was that the Sunni can't fathom a Baghdad that the Sunni tribe doesn't completely control, hence the opposition and violence that ensued. The same is true for Afghanistan. As long as the Pashtun are in complete control, they will accept democracy. The same is going to be true in the rest of the Arab world where this "Spring" took place.

We are between a rock and a hard place. It is a fact that the region was and is the threat, but the dictators (save Hussein) were not. As long as they maintained control, we had "stability" and order. The people knew this. But could we simply abandon the dictators and the region? Of course not. Aside from the oil issue, we are not a nation that simply denies its responsibilities. The people know this. The people also know that we did not install a dictator after Saddam Hussein. What we did was struggle to keep the Sunni and the Shia from exploding totally for the safetly of the mass of the population. What would have been hugely helpful to our image in the region was if President Obama actually sided with the people against Mubarak and Quddafi instead of waiting to see if it was safe to do so (France actually had balls in this regards). In my opinion, it was this that proved their case. We have been lingering along in this region enslaved to habit for far too long. And in the big picture scheme of threats, all of this needs to get healthy before nuclear power enters the region.


No, I am not arguing that it ends all terrorism. But to say there is a connection, you have to show a connection. There is no evidence I know of that democracy slows, hinders, lessens terrorism at all.

Other than history being clear about it, what proof are you seeking? Just check it out.....

Europe has just gone through it's longing lasting peace in history. This period started at the end of World War II, where the dictators of Germany and Italy died, to present day. The only real exception was up in Ireland. Without the ability to control destiny, Ireland produced the IRA against the UK. Notice how the IRA didn't seek the "foriegn devil" for supporting the British? But is it a coincidence that all of those nations joined the democratic world at this time and are no longer subjected to the whims of monarchs and dictators? Communism in the former Soviet Union has generated plenty of Islamic hatreds and terrorism from local organizations are on record. The same is true in China where Buddhists in the Sichuan Province demand political freedom and in the Xinjiang Province where Muslims constantly protest for the same. None of which export their terror upon a "foriegn devil," but oppose an oppressive non democratic nation. In other words, other than violent clashes, they have no outlet to be heard. Only democracies have that outlet, which is why the democratic world only sees the occasional individual terrorist and not organizations and groups on the move. This is why it is so terribly convenient to state that "terrorism is a police matter." In the parts of the world where there is no democracy and whole organizations center around violent clashes, the police aren't a good enough tool. Even the British used the military to face the IRA.

The Middle East is different in this regard. Their dictator and religious oppressive enviroment, stamping down political thought and expression, has and does generate terrorism. But, unlike the above, they do export their terrorism upon a scapegoat to answer for all their problems. This makes us obligated to secure ourselves, but somehow keep their resources flowing to the world. The best way to do this through democracies where people control their resources. You think Iraq will shut the American dollar down by not pumping oil? Economy matters to all. And it will flow either way...with a dictator or with the people. We should prefer the people, because not only is it simply the right thing to do, but people are the true stability.



There are those who will argue Iraq. Iraq met no other critieria for invasion. No letigimate critieria.

Depends on how you want to look at it. It really just comes down to that. People will argue what is "right" and what is "wrong" and what is legitimate and what is not. People will argue for the legitimacy of international laws when it conveniently applies (nobody in America argued this under Clinton). People will choose to either see a region or see a single nation seperated by borders that is supposed to have nothing to do with each other. People will choose to state that we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. Some even argue that we should have just forgiven the terrorists and simply continued to insist that the Taliban hand them over for due process. In the end, the invasion happened and history marched on to present day where we have a new President doing much the same deeds overseas with most former arguments silent. This tells me something.

You have to have reason to believe there will be an attack. There was no such reason to believe in one from either country.

Same with Japan and Germany. There are greater attacks that affect our civilization than a military act. A year later, Japan had left us alone. Germany never touched our soil. The Soviet Union never touched our soil. Iraq invaded Kuwait...not America. The truth is that only Al-Queda proved to have a mission to murder Americans year after year and they were protected by a Sudanese government and then an Afhan governmet. In regards to Saddam Hussein, he did what the rest in history did. He threatened the flow of resources and economy. The invasion of Iraq was nothing new to our history. In fact, the only difference between European colonial power and us was and is that we don't localy control our business deals with military control. Embassies and diplomats do this. After the business deal is made, governments may treat their people however they like, which is why we get criticized for looking the other way. It wasn't until we saw how the oppressive treatment of their people proves to bite us the ass that we took an interest in "nation building." After all, do we really care about French, German, or Russian people? Or do we care about their goverments?
 
I guess this would be one of the few areas we disagree.

I don't consider any nation anywhere, regardless of location or politics or economy, to be "vital" to our interests.

Yet it is. We recognized young that our commerce and prosperity in the world relied on open sea passages like the Suez and Panama. The Mediterranean Sea was where we first engaged an enemy in a deployed capacity. The Spanish-American war had everything to do with local intrusions, but spread out to the world (the first time a European colonial power was defeated). Though we maintained our sense of isolationalism, we understood what built and secured Europe from threats (internal threats being something different). Before the 20th century, we passed Britian as the number one economy in the world. This was due to our preservation of passages and the security of our trade partners while European colonial powers spent fortunes to make fortunes. After Europe's civil war in 1919, we had passed all other nations on earth to become the most powerful. After World War II we became the most powerful in history. And we have been creating a globalized world ever since, because a world that deals with grievances through a UN type setting and creates corporate business ties is a world without World Wars. Stable regions has been the key. Consider what the former Yugoslavia was. It was a humanitarian disaster full of gencide and ethnic cleansing....and it was the birth place of World War I. Therefore, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, and Kosovo had more to do with Europe than the former Yugoslavia. And without so much economy paired up with Europe, this made this location vital to our interests. Oil flow out of the Middle East was vital enough for the Soviet Union to covet and for us to maintain stability.

The flip side to globalization is that it absolutely burdens us to world ties. There is no reboot. There's no way to un-globalize. But consider that today's time in history is the most peaceful in recorded history. This is because this world is tied together by not only an escalating number of democracies, but economic handshakes and shared interests. many things are vital because we can't isolate anymore and be what we need to be to secure our health.

If Europe crashes into 3rd world status, the USA can, and will continue on into the future without them.

I doubt they will crash to 3rd world status, but even if, it only means that what we consider vital will change. Currently our commercial and diplomatic ties to China are as vital as our ties to Europe.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

The disease is eveything that comes from dictator and religious oppression. Eventually, the lack of education, social support, creativity, freedom of politicial expression, freedom of religion, and economic depravity will create "rebels." But in a religious swamp like the Middle East, this rebellious streak will turn to God for answers. For too many, it is the infectius West and its modernity that infects God's people, so they design an enemy in us. And Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all too happy to allow them to hate on a "foriegn devil" rather than focus all hatred upon local government. For many of them, blaming the culture that has created this environment means blaming God. Since this will not do, God gets a pass. Who does that leave? It all stems from a disease that is social in nature. Imagine a starving Soviet Union, with the ability to arm nuclear weapons, but throw God into the mix. Their social problems have just become to much to bare.

But let's not exaggerate the invasion situation. We didn't invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Libya, etc. We invaded a hostile goverment that harbored and would continue to harbor an organization that attacked our soil quite violently and publicly. Then we invaded another hostile government that constantly threatened its neighbors and due to the UN mission was an obvious source of anger for Sunni extremists everywhere. This, by itself, was never going to reign in this region. But they did have everything to do with it. It wasn't until Arabs elsewhere took matters into their own hands that we started seeing this region head into a healthy direction. So invasion, by itslef didn't do it. But in the mean time, it was only a matter of time. Saudi Arabia had already bent to pressures and allowed low level elections for the first time in history among other firsts. Eventually a man tired of his social opressions and lit himself on fire in Tunisia. Then, as we have seen two other times in Arab history in the 20th century, one after another, other Arab states followed suit. Call Tunisia the "Arch Duke Ferdinand" event of the region and we can begin to see through the smoke.

I know your point. But your point relies on the idea that we are marching all over the region assaulting borders and planting flags in the name of Democracy. This isn't true. We dealt with the two antagonists that defined the dictator/religious theocracy status quo for Arabs. They both happen to have had intimate historical ties to us, which gave us obligation. Since Bush gave a speech to the UN about democracy spreading from a democratic Iraq, there was a sense of future path for this region. We can't deny this. Cultural experts were on to something. I won't take that away just because Rumsfeld was a douche and incapable of making sound decisions.

The dictator Saddam was secular and more for education than then the religious elements. SO, he wasn't part of what you call a disease. And there is no exaggeration. We invaded two countries. Neither attacked us. Neither had the compacity to attack or threaden us. Neither was involved in any planning, paying for, or sending of anyone to attack us. Afghanistan could care less about us, and Saddam had as much to fear from terrorist as they did us. So, there is defending ourself rationale that works.

And no, my point does not rely on your exaggeration of flag planting. Merely changing an unfriendly government to friendly one by force is emough. It is us changing the metrics by force, not for terrorism, but for finace and power (say in surrounding Iran). I stated early on that we did not need to rule to be imperial. It's an improvement on the Roman model.


This is what I was writing just above. This disease stems from the environment dictators maintain. And we aren't talking about a single dictator or two. We are talking about a region full of dictators and religious oppression that we offer handshakes to. HOWEVER, this is 2012. The Cold War is long dead. What we did in the past does not have to be anymore. In fact, we haven't needed these dictators ever since the Berlin Wall came down. We have just been robots to our Cold War habits. Our relationship has been very apathetic and distant. Saddam Hussein was "our" dictator. No more. We gave the people what they have been wanting for two centuries. But what we learned was that the Sunni can't fathom a Baghdad that the Sunni tribe doesn't completely control, hence the opposition and violence that ensued. The same is true for Afghanistan. As long as the Pashtun are in complete control, they will accept democracy. The same is going to be true in the rest of the Arab world where this "Spring" took place.

We are between a rock and a hard place. It is a fact that the region was and is the threat, but the dictators (save Hussein) were not. As long as they maintained control, we had "stability" and order. The people knew this. But could we simply abandon the dictators and the region? Of course not. Aside from the oil issue, we are not a nation that simply denies its responsibilities. The people know this. The people also know that we did not install a dictator after Saddam Hussein. What we did was struggle to keep the Sunni and the Shia from exploding totally for the safetly of the mass of the population. What would have been hugely helpful to our image in the region was if President Obama actually sided with the people against Mubarak and Quddafi instead of waiting to see if it was safe to do so (France actually had balls in this regards). In my opinion, it was this that proved their case. We have been lingering along in this region enslaved to habit for far too long. And in the big picture scheme of threats, all of this needs to get healthy before nuclear power enters the region.

But freedom will not end the move to relgion. In Palistine for example, they voted for the religious zealots. They do that quite regularly. Our meddling hasn't changed it. And while there is no move that has everyone saying we're just the bomb, you know, cool, choosing the one in which we're the imperialist that forces our way by gun point plays into our enemies view of us. It was a foolish move.

Other than history being clear about it, what proof are you seeking? Just check it out.....

Europe has just gone through it's longing lasting peace in history. This period started at the end of World War II, where the dictators of Germany and Italy died, to present day. The only real exception was up in Ireland. Without the ability to control destiny, Ireland produced the IRA against the UK. Notice how the IRA didn't seek the "foriegn devil" for supporting the British? But is it a coincidence that all of those nations joined the democratic world at this time and are no longer subjected to the whims of monarchs and dictators? Communism in the former Soviet Union has generated plenty of Islamic hatreds and terrorism from local organizations are on record. The same is true in China where Buddhists in the Sichuan Province demand political freedom and in the Xinjiang Province where Muslims constantly protest for the same. None of which export their terror upon a "foriegn devil," but oppose an oppressive non democratic nation. In other words, other than violent clashes, they have no outlet to be heard. Only democracies have that outlet, which is why the democratic world only sees the occasional individual terrorist and not organizations and groups on the move. This is why it is so terribly convenient to state that "terrorism is a police matter." In the parts of the world where there is no democracy and whole organizations center around violent clashes, the police aren't a good enough tool. Even the British used the military to face the IRA.

The Middle East is different in this regard. Their dictator and religious oppressive enviroment, stamping down political thought and expression, has and does generate terrorism. But, unlike the above, they do export their terrorism upon a scapegoat to answer for all their problems. This makes us obligated to secure ourselves, but somehow keep their resources flowing to the world. The best way to do this through democracies where people control their resources. You think Iraq will shut the American dollar down by not pumping oil? Economy matters to all. And it will flow either way...with a dictator or with the people. We should prefer the people, because not only is it simply the right thing to do, but people are the true stability.

First history on not clear on your claim (freedom lessens terrorism). Terrorism has been prevenlent everywhere regardless of political system.

Now the British did set a blue print fot hwo to deal with terrorism. For a long time they used brute force. They failed. It wasn't until they backed up, started working quitely behind the scences to build coalitions, to work intell and quietly (queitly is important), quietly take out leadership. It was this tactic, the more surgical law enforcement effort and not the more bombastic sledge hammer approached that worked.




Depends on how you want to look at it. It really just comes down to that. People will argue what is "right" and what is "wrong" and what is legitimate and what is not. People will argue for the legitimacy of international laws when it conveniently applies (nobody in America argued this under Clinton). People will choose to either see a region or see a single nation seperated by borders that is supposed to have nothing to do with each other. People will choose to state that we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. Some even argue that we should have just forgiven the terrorists and simply continued to insist that the Taliban hand them over for due process. In the end, the invasion happened and history marched on to present day where we have a new President doing much the same deeds overseas with most former arguments silent. This tells me something.

I think if you look at life as having no real or objective standards, then you're right. Any silly excuse we throw out will do. But you got a few things wrong above. 1) people did argue against Clinton. He just knew what Bush didn't what is done quickly dies quickly. He had more trouble in Bosnia, but had the support of the UN, which gave him some cover. Many of his actions were argued against, and on both legal and moral grounds. 2) It isn't just international law that apllies here. Yes, we should adhere to our agreements, or they are meaningless. But there is also concepts of justice, and what si right and wrong. Just war theory spells this out fairly well.

However, there were options. As Scheuer argued, on 9/12 we knew exactly where OBL was. Go get him, and get out. Sends the proper message without all the cost. Which is better than the wrong message with all the cost, which is what we ultimately chose.

Same with Japan and Germany. There are greater attacks that affect our civilization than a military act. A year later, Japan had left us alone. Germany never touched our soil. The Soviet Union never touched our soil. Iraq invaded Kuwait...not America. The truth is that only Al-Queda proved to have a mission to murder Americans year after year and they were protected by a Sudanese government and then an Afhan governmet. In regards to Saddam Hussein, he did what the rest in history did. He threatened the flow of resources and economy. The invasion of Iraq was nothing new to our history. In fact, the only difference between European colonial power and us was and is that we don't localy control our business deals with military control. Embassies and diplomats do this. After the business deal is made, governments may treat their people however they like, which is why we get criticized for looking the other way. It wasn't until we saw how the oppressive treatment of their people proves to bite us the ass that we took an interest in "nation building." After all, do we really care about French, German, or Russian people? Or do we care about their goverments?


Japan did attack us. Our base is our soil. Germany declared war on us. The red scare was not our best moment. The differences matter.

BTW being somewhere is not protected by.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

The dictator Saddam was secular and more for education than then the religious elements. SO, he wasn't part of what you call a disease. And there is no exaggeration. We invaded two countries. Neither attacked us. Neither had the compacity to attack or threaden us. Neither was involved in any planning, paying for, or sending of anyone to attack us. Afghanistan could care less about us, and Saddam had as much to fear from terrorist as they did us. So, there is defending ourself rationale that works.

The entire region couldn't change with Saddam Hussein sitting safely in the middle. And as I have shown, our history of defense does not involve an attacker upon our soil.


But freedom will not end the move to relgion. In Palistine for example, they voted for the religious zealots. They do that quite regularly. Our meddling hasn't changed it. And while there is no move that has everyone saying we're just the bomb, you know, cool, choosing the one in which we're the imperialist that forces our way by gun point plays into our enemies view of us. It was a foolish move.

Freedom will end the move to extreme religion. Democracy hasn't killed Christianity either. But we in the West have stumbled and tripped our way through creating prosperous nations despite Christianity demanding obedience form kings and eventually tearing itself apart during the reformation. Perhaps we could give Arabs more than a couple years to figure a few things out? After all, they have been subjugated for a very long time. This is a region that has been shaken and shaken. Eventually, the top has to come off. Even Iraq's tribal violence has come from decades of not being allowed to sot out matters healthily.

At the birth of being freed from oppression, this region will do what is natural and seek religious leadership. They, after all, are the organized political parties on deck. However, this is temporary. These political parties may prove more than willing to compromise because even they have accepted that after all their violence and hatred, real power only comes through democracy. The Muslim Brotherhood has learned this. They also know that in order to maintain that power in Egypt, they will have to create an environment that the people want (education, freedom of expression, etc.). They will insist on their religious BS as they go, but they will face forward. Even Iran was electing more and more liberal presidents until the Majlis saw the writing on the walls and approved of Ahmenadejed (a Khomieni disciple). "Palestine" is a special case and is important. Palestinians spend more time being reminded that they are supposed to hate by Arabs elsewhere than actually hating. Used by religious zealots throughout the region, Palestinians act as the focus point for twisted regimes who need their people hating something outside their borders. The Israeli/Palestinian issue will always do. But the fact is that if Arabs spent as much energy seeking to change their own troubles as they do about hating a country where Muslims are the freest, they would have done this "Arab Spring" long ago.

But look at it this way. If France can take almost 75 years to get democracy right and even embrace an emporer (Napoleon) along the way.....and Germany can elect a dictator (Hitler), both of whom wrecked havoc upon Europe....maybe Arabs can be forgiven for a few stumbles that will probably not affect much?

First history on not clear on your claim (freedom lessens terrorism). Terrorism has been prevenlent everywhere regardless of political system.

Once again, we aren't talking about the absence of terrorism. We are talking about mass organized groups, their exportation, and society's stagnation because of terrorism. McVeigh does not equal Al-Queda or the countless other organizations that thrive in the Middle East because its social environment encourages a never ending recruitment pool willing to hate a foreign devil. The freedom to express and to elect true representation greatly reduces the man's capacity to organize and be heard through other means. This is 101 stuff.


Now the British did set a blue print fot hwo to deal with terrorism. For a long time they used brute force. They failed. It wasn't until they backed up, started working quitely behind the scences to build coalitions, to work intell and quietly (queitly is important), quietly take out leadership. It was this tactic, the more surgical law enforcement effort and not the more bombastic sledge hammer approached that worked.

I'm sure we are doing all of that as well. Iraq and Afghanistan were just our local involvements for expressed reasons. This entire regions knows that in order to be prosperos they have to join the world, which means dealing with America and allies. China is fine dealing with the dictators. We have proven that we want that behavior behind us. You think the Muslim Brotherhood will refuse to do business with the powers of the world and not give their people what they promised?

However, there were options. As Scheuer argued, on 9/12 we knew exactly where OBL was. Go get him, and get out. Sends the proper message without all the cost. Which is better than the wrong message with all the cost, which is what we ultimately chose.

This would hardly satisfy the American thirst for revenge, which is what all of America wanted.

Japan did attack us. Our base is our soil. Germany declared war on us. The red scare was not our best moment. The differences matter.

BTW being somewhere is not protected by.

Japan attacked Hawaii almost a year prior to Guadacanal. They were done with out soil.

Germany declaring war on us had nothing to do with our soil. Castro had also declared war on us during the Cold War.

It's our presence around the globe that offers protections to all regions where we conduct business. If we simply vacated these positions, nations like South Korea, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, etc. would be a mess of violence and upheaval...and so would our business ties.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

The entire region couldn't change with Saddam Hussein sitting safely in the middle. And as I have shown, our history of defense does not involve an attacker upon our soil.

I can think of nothing that would make that true. Saddam was a bit player with next to no real influence on the region.

OUr mistaken conflicts after WWII have not been, but like Iraq, they haven't been declared wars either. Those efforts have been just as flawed. More later.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Freedom will end the move to extreme religion. Democracy hasn't killed Christianity either. But we in the West have stumbled and tripped our way through creating prosperous nations despite Christianity demanding obedience form kings and eventually tearing itself apart during the reformation. Perhaps we could give Arabs more than a couple years to figure a few things out? After all, they have been subjugated for a very long time. This is a region that has been shaken and shaken. Eventually, the top has to come off. Even Iraq's tribal violence has come from decades of not being allowed to sot out matters healthily.

At the birth of being freed from oppression, this region will do what is natural and seek religious leadership. They, after all, are the organized political parties on deck. However, this is temporary. These political parties may prove more than willing to compromise because even they have accepted that after all their violence and hatred, real power only comes through democracy. The Muslim Brotherhood has learned this. They also know that in order to maintain that power in Egypt, they will have to create an environment that the people want (education, freedom of expression, etc.). They will insist on their religious BS as they go, but they will face forward. Even Iran was electing more and more liberal presidents until the Majlis saw the writing on the walls and approved of Ahmenadejed (a Khomieni disciple). "Palestine" is a special case and is important. Palestinians spend more time being reminded that they are supposed to hate by Arabs elsewhere than actually hating. Used by religious zealots throughout the region, Palestinians act as the focus point for twisted regimes who need their people hating something outside their borders. The Israeli/Palestinian issue will always do. But the fact is that if Arabs spent as much energy seeking to change their own troubles as they do about hating a country where Muslims are the freest, they would have done this "Arab Spring" long ago.

But look at it this way. If France can take almost 75 years to get democracy right and even embrace an emporer (Napoleon) along the way.....and Germany can elect a dictator (Hitler), both of whom wrecked havoc upon Europe....maybe Arabs can be forgiven for a few stumbles that will probably not affect much?

I see no evidence democracy ends extreme religion. In the Muslim world as well as here, the extremes exist. We are not by any streach fighting all muslims, but instead a small minority. Just as can happen here, the extremes have had good luck using religion to highten their call. We've fought on God's side a time or two ourselves. The enemy is small in number, but is helped by our inability to understand the motivations. We too often mistake the symptoms as the cause, and wrongly think we can dicatate the outcome. We can't. They have to travel that path and determine their destiny themselves. Our meddling will likley only make things worse in the long run.

Once again, we aren't talking about the absence of terrorism. We are talking about mass organized groups, their exportation, and society's stagnation because of terrorism. McVeigh does not equal Al-Queda or the countless other organizations that thrive in the Middle East because its social environment encourages a never ending recruitment pool willing to hate a foreign devil. The freedom to express and to elect true representation greatly reduces the man's capacity to organize and be heard through other means. This is 101 stuff.

And I did not say absence. Let me repeat what I said: "First history on not clear on your claim (freedom lessens terrorism). Terrorism has been prevenlent everywhere regardless of political system." They are not stagnet because of terrorism. And freedom will not prevent them from hating the foreign devil, in fact or efforts re-enforce that we are the devil they claim we are.

BTW, McVey was not alone. He belonged to a group. The KKK is not alone, but a group. And when these groups feel their view of the world uis threatened, they act violently. We've seen it ebfore, and we'll see it again. Freeedom has not lessened it. Not here. Not in Brittian. Not really anywhere. The premise you present is flawed fundamentally. There is no evidence that freedom or lack of freedom plays much of a role at all in terrorism.


I'm sure we are doing all of that as well. Iraq and Afghanistan were just our local involvements for expressed reasons. This entire regions knows that in order to be prosperos they have to join the world, which means dealing with America and allies. China is fine dealing with the dictators. We have proven that we want that behavior behind us. You think the Muslim Brotherhood will refuse to do business with the powers of the world and not give their people what they promised?

Perhaps we are. Likely they were doing both as well. But one works against the other. The public, big show, works to keep enough angry that you lose the advantage. Where is you keep it behind the scenes, there is less clutter, less public outcry, and more ability to get cooperation. Sometimes working smarter is better than working reckless.

This would hardly satisfy the American thirst for revenge, which is what all of America wanted.

yes, we ahd the fever. Just as a mob does when they want to lynch someone, too often the wrong someone. But should we cater to that mentality, or do bring reason to the table? And wouldn't it have been better to have him and not be on snipe hunts all over the place? I think we get better from people when we expect better, don't you?


Japan attacked Hawaii almost a year prior to Guadacanal. They were done with out soil.

Germany declaring war on us had nothing to do with our soil. Castro had also declared war on us during the Cold War.

It's our presence around the globe that offers protections to all regions where we conduct business. If we simply vacated these positions, nations like South Korea, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, etc. would be a mess of violence and upheaval...and so would our business ties.

Fact is Japan did attack our soil. That is defense when you strike back. Afghanistan, and Iraq even more so, did nothing remotely like that.

And when a nation declares war on you, espeically then, there is a reasonable expectation they will attack you. So it too is a different situation, and one that fits every just war situation. Castro, the result of interfering in Cuba to start with, declared no real war. And unlike Germany, had no real army. But a wise president both delt with the real threat there and didn't recklessly lead us into a mess.

But we can work on history in the proper forum. ;)

As for around the world, being in South Korea is not equal to onvading North Korea. Working with allies is not equal to invading other countries. Hell, even Israel told a couople of years ago to claim down concering Iran (I won't look it up again tonight). We have to make a distinction between supporting allies and invading countries. VN is better today, more workable with us, than it was when we fought them. We were unable, and pick your reason, to make them a democracy. But, they trade with us fine now. If we look close at history, we actually could have had the relationship we have now, if not even better, minus all the death and destruction. VN is a perfect example of what being to ready to go to war for less than valid reasons leads us to. We have to use better judgment.
 
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Access to Persian Gulf oil is a clear vital interest. There's little dispute as to what would happen if that supply were disrupted for an appreciable length of time. Hence, a logical commitment would be to ensure that access is safeguarded. Ensuring that the friendly suppliers have sufficient power to defend themselves is one element. Having contingency plans to intervene militarily if a hostile state attempts to block access is another.

But we had a hostile state attempt to block it, and nothing happened. In fact, this has happened three times thus far, and nothing ever happens. Again, in a global economy, it's impossible to stop the oil from going where it is going to go. So on this point, we differ. I completely disagree with this concept.

Leaders should never be judged by our transposing our hopes and aspirations on them. Judgment should be based on a clear understanding of how they perceive their nation's interests and their capacity to pursue/advance those interests. Saddam Hussein was not pro-Western. Indeed, during much of the Cold War, he was actually sympathetic to the Soviet Union. U.S. policy shifted toward Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. In part, that war was a consequence of the U.S. having abandoned a generally reliable ally, leaving Iran to fall to radicals who had expressed anti-U.S. and anti-democratic aspirations and the emergence of a power vacuum. IMO, the U.S. made a similar blunder when it came to pushing aside President Musharraf in Pakistan.

I will agree that whatever a policy is, we should be consistent in applying it. If we are going to be an ally to the Shaw of Iran, then we should have remained an ally to the end. If we are going to defend south Vietnam, we should remained to defend south Vietnam to the end. One of the problems with having a government that is moving away from a representative republic, and more towards a democracy, is that policy changes with whichever way the wind is blowing, and that is bad for our reputation, and international opinion of us.

However, I would argue that the policy should be consistently minimal international intervention. Minimal as in, last resort, and only when we have absolutely no other option. The reason is because the moment we ally ourselves with another nation, that nation inherently believes they can wield more power than they rightfully have. World War 1, was exactly this principal in action. Countries who typically would not have been bold enough to engage in hostile action, did so knowing they had allies who would be obligated to help if they needed it.

Both in Iran and Pakistan, the U.S. could have worked behind the scenes with the Shah and Musharraf to promote gradual reform in a shape that is compatible with those countries' institutions, history, and culture. Instead, the U.S. assumed each time that the changes would lead to democracy. Today, Iran's people are no more free than they were under the Shah. Arguably, they're less free given the imposition of religious doctrine. Iran is also a hostile state and undertaking efforts that, if successful, could dramatically change the Middle East's balance of Power. Pakistan has a weak, ineffectual, corrupt and undemocratic regime. It is currently sliding toward failed state status and increasingly hostile to U.S. interests.

My problem here is, even if something good did come out of some 'behind the scenes' action, we would inevitably be found out, and enemies would use that to rouse the public against us, and all of those 'good things', regardless. I mean, how many times have you heard someone blame the US for Pinochet in Chili? I've heard that dozens, if not a hundred times.

Yet, when you dig into the details, we didn't do jack squat in Chili. We *DID* investigate helping, but it turned out there was a domestic push to remove Pascal Allende already in place, and the CIA advised doing nothing, and did nothing.

Yet just because we investigated the possibility of helping, we've been blamed for Pinochet for almost 40 years.

If we had actually done something, it would have only served to embolden anti-America groups throughout Latin America, and ruin all the good things we may or may not have accomplished. Again, it's best to just stay out. Open trade, be friendly, but have a more hands-off approach to everything.

Foreign policy doesn't require military intervention. Many other tools exist. Military intervention should be a last resort. Containment was a much less expensive option for dealing with Iraq and, ultimately as it turns out, a much more effective approach than had been assumed. Furthermore, leaders don't engage relationships for economic reasons, alone. There can be cases where their objectives contradict free market dynamics. Resource nationalism is one example.

Resources are sold, because they are needed. If they weren't needed, there would be no demand and, thus, no price/value. Therefore, oil cannot have no value in today's world. Oil is needed. Moreover, global demand for oil is growing as the global economy expands.

Containment wasn't working. Iraq was constantly causing us problems all during the 90s. They were violating to cease fire non-stop, and all indications were that Saddam intended to support terrorist action against US targets. The point that with 20-20 hindsight we know he wasn't doing that yet, doesn't change the situation at the time, and who is to say that Saddam would not have eventually been the direct supporter of terrorist action against the US in the future? Well we know he won't now... because Bush finished the job.

But back to the resources. Resource nationalism is completely irrelevant in my book. Venezuela nationalized the oil industry. Have you filled up at a Citgo lately? I have. ( Citgo is owned by Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the nationalized Venezuelan oil company. ) So we're STILL getting their oil here in the US. We get oil from Iran which has nationalized oil, and Russia which still has government run oil companies, and dozens of others.

Nationalizing a resource doesn't effect us one bit. The only people it effects are the citizens of the country which nationalized the resource, and typically the effect is that the citizens of those countries end up subsidizing those companies, or those companies don't grow and thus the economy loses out. But it most certainly doesn't stop us from purchasing their resources on the global market. ( which is even more ironic when you think about it. They are taxing their people, to effectively pay us to buy their oil. Crazy )

Bailouts are a different matter. They entail benefits and risks. They also entail moral hazard. Yet, the cost of refraining from a bailout can sometimes be so excessive, that a bailout is pursued. The extraordinary support to prevent the collapse of the U.S. financial sector is one example. Had no action been taken, an unprecedented global depression would have unfolded.

And yet what proof do you have of what didn't happen? This statement always bugs me, because you make a claim, and cite a non-existent evidence as the proof of concept.

We're not in a depression, therefore if we hadn't bailed out the financial sector, we clearly would have had a depression. Huh? That does not follow. The fact we're not in a depression, doesn't prove we would have had one, without the bailouts.

That's on the level of, we went to the moon, and that's why it's not made of cheese. If we had not have gone, it would have been.

Iceland for example, specifically didn't bailout their banking system. They simply let them all fail, and go into bankruptcy. Iceland today, is doing better than the US and most of Europe.

Lehman Brothers was not bailed out, and Lehman was larger by far than most of the other banks that were bailed out. Yet it didn't crash the entire financial sector. No, it simply went to bankruptcy, and the bond holders are getting some money, and the equity holders will get a few pennies on the dollar, and the rest of the assets have been (or are being) sold off by the court.

So no, I don't buy this idea at all, that had we simply allowed the banks to go bankrupt, that it would have been the end of the world. The Great Depression should have proved this to us. Hoover tried to save the banks then too, and we had the great depression. Here we are today, and we've tried the same exact thing all over again, and the results have been simliar. No we're not in a depression, but unlike the last 4 or 5 recessions, we haven't bounced back. Our economy is stagnate.
 
Yet it is. We recognized young that our commerce and prosperity in the world relied on open sea passages like the Suez and Panama. The Mediterranean Sea was where we first engaged an enemy in a deployed capacity. The Spanish-American war had everything to do with local intrusions, but spread out to the world (the first time a European colonial power was defeated). Though we maintained our sense of isolationalism, we understood what built and secured Europe from threats (internal threats being something different). Before the 20th century, we passed Britian as the number one economy in the world. This was due to our preservation of passages and the security of our trade partners while European colonial powers spent fortunes to make fortunes. After Europe's civil war in 1919, we had passed all other nations on earth to become the most powerful. After World War II we became the most powerful in history. And we have been creating a globalized world ever since, because a world that deals with grievances through a UN type setting and creates corporate business ties is a world without World Wars. Stable regions has been the key. Consider what the former Yugoslavia was. It was a humanitarian disaster full of gencide and ethnic cleansing....and it was the birth place of World War I. Therefore, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, and Kosovo had more to do with Europe than the former Yugoslavia. And without so much economy paired up with Europe, this made this location vital to our interests. Oil flow out of the Middle East was vital enough for the Soviet Union to covet and for us to maintain stability.

The flip side to globalization is that it absolutely burdens us to world ties. There is no reboot. There's no way to un-globalize. But consider that today's time in history is the most peaceful in recorded history. This is because this world is tied together by not only an escalating number of democracies, but economic handshakes and shared interests. many things are vital because we can't isolate anymore and be what we need to be to secure our health.

I doubt they will crash to 3rd world status, but even if, it only means that what we consider vital will change. Currently our commercial and diplomatic ties to China are as vital as our ties to Europe.

Well yes, we consider it vital. That really doesn't mean much in my books. Ethanol was considered vital to our interests too, and we know what a scam that is now. (there's a few who still don't know, and I'll be glad to explain).

My point is, vital is simply an ambiguous determination, largely by politicians. If you haven't figured out yet, I really couldn't care less what politicians think about anything. They are politicians. Inherently everything that they do and say for political advantage
OBAMA Considers Everyone Close Allies In The New World Order - YouTube
Granted this is about Obama, but it could be any politician. It's politics. It is inherently BS.

But to copy your last statement:
"I doubt they will crash to 3rd world status, but even if, it only means that what we consider vital will change."

That's kind of my point. If what we consider "vital" can randomly change to fit the current situation, then clearly they are not "vital". If they were "vital" then if they crashed into a socialist hell, we would be screwed. But we're not. We simply would trade with others that have not crashed into a socialist hell. Japan used to be "vital". Now India and China are "vital". In the next 20 years, Africa could be "Vital", or Europe could rebound, and they could be "Vital" again. Ultimately, none of them are vital.

They all are temporarily a good trading partner, and later may not.
 
But we had a hostile state attempt to block it, and nothing happened.

Iran threatened to block it, but did not take such a stance. The U.S. warned that it would act to prevent any blockade. Given the vital interest involved, there can be no uncertainty. Were Iran actually to try to close off the Strait of Hormuz, the U.S. Navy would smash the attempted blockade.

I will agree that whatever a policy is, we should be consistent in applying it. If we are going to be an ally to the Shaw of Iran, then we should have remained an ally to the end. If we are going to defend south Vietnam, we should remained to defend south Vietnam to the end. One of the problems with having a government that is moving away from a representative republic, and more towards a democracy, is that policy changes with whichever way the wind is blowing, and that is bad for our reputation, and international opinion of us.

Political sentiment changes more rapidly than nation's interests change. Not surprisingly, even as the U.S. elected Democrats and Republicans during the Cold War, there was a great deal of continuity in U.S. foreign policy vis-a-vis the Soviet Union.

However, I would argue that the policy should be consistently minimal international intervention. Minimal as in, last resort, and only when we have absolutely no other option. The reason is because the moment we ally ourselves with another nation, that nation inherently believes they can wield more power than they rightfully have. World War 1, was exactly this principal in action. Countries who typically would not have been bold enough to engage in hostile action, did so knowing they had allies who would be obligated to help if they needed it.

If you're suggesting military intervention should be a last resort, I agree. In most cases, many other diplomatic and other non-military approaches can be undertaken before military action becomes necessary. Non-military engagement via foreign aid, trade ties, etc., can and should be undertaken far more regularly.

My problem here is, even if something good did come out of some 'behind the scenes' action, we would inevitably be found out, and enemies would use that to rouse the public against us, and all of those 'good things', regardless. I mean, how many times have you heard someone blame the US for Pinochet in Chili? I've heard that dozens, if not a hundred times.

Of course there is risk. One of the lessons is that effective foreign policy needs a corresponding public relations strategy. That won't eliminate all such risk, but it can mitigate the risk. Although the toppling of the Allende regime, which was rapidly transforming itself into a dictatorship, was beneficial to U.S. interests, the U.S. did not directly topple the regime. It did threaten to cut aid for the anti-democratic policies that were being imposed and did not take a stance that the government should not be challenged by domestic elements (certain military officers) in Chile. Following the coup, it did not take a position that the Allende regime should be restored. Of course, when Allende committed suicide, that was not possible anyway.

If we had actually done something, it would have only served to embolden anti-America groups throughout Latin America, and ruin all the good things we may or may not have accomplished. Again, it's best to just stay out.

If the series of events that had been underway in Chile during the early 1970s was underway today, the U.S. would have played an even lesser role. Were situations such as the Vietnam War or coup in Chile or civil war in Nicaragua to have unfolded today, the U.S. response would have been far more restrained than it was during the Cold War. During the Cold War, national security interests made it impossible for the U.S. to be indifferent to events such events. Today, that is not the case. There are no compelling interests that justify intervention in Syria.

Containment wasn't working. Iraq was constantly causing us problems all during the 90s. They were violating to cease fire non-stop, and all indications were that Saddam intended to support terrorist action against US targets. The point that with 20-20 hindsight we know he wasn't doing that yet, doesn't change the situation at the time, and who is to say that Saddam would not have eventually been the direct supporter of terrorist action against the US in the future?

My reference to Containment related to the narrower WMD issue. Iraq was clearly engaging in provocations. But post-Iraq war, it was revealed that the Containment regime had proved surprisingly effective. Iraq had not redeveloped WMD. Moreover, from a geopolitical standpoint, Iraq had been a counterweight to Iran. Following the war, Iran has been pursuing a course that is threatening to transform the region's balance of power. Iraq no longer serves as a counterweight.

But back to the resources. Resource nationalism is completely irrelevant in my book. Venezuela nationalized the oil industry. Have you filled up at a Citgo lately? I have. ( Citgo is owned by Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the nationalized Venezuelan oil company. ) So we're STILL getting their oil here in the US. We get oil from Iran which has nationalized oil, and Russia which still has government run oil companies, and dozens of others.

Resource nationalism is separate from nationalization. Resource nationalism means that countries will not engage in trade of resources on economic considerations alone. Resources will be used as a lever for advancing national interests regardless of market-based interests. Russia has used resource nationalism via suspension of natural gas transmission. China is engaging in it by reducing its export of rare earth minerals, even as a ready and growing global market exists for those minerals.

We're not in a depression, therefore if we hadn't bailed out the financial sector, we clearly would have had a depression. Huh? That does not follow. The fact we're not in a depression, doesn't prove we would have had one, without the bailouts.

Pre- and post-TARP developments tell the story. Stabilization only occurred months after TARP. A free fall was underway prior to TARP.

Iceland for example, specifically didn't bailout their banking system. They simply let them all fail, and go into bankruptcy. Iceland today, is doing better than the US and most of Europe.

That's incorrect. Iceland nationalized most of its banking system.

The stunning collapse of Iceland - Business - US business - Bloomberg Businessweek - msnbc.com
 
Iran threatened to block it, but did not take such a stance. The U.S. warned that it would act to prevent any blockade. Given the vital interest involved, there can be no uncertainty. Were Iran actually to try to close off the Strait of Hormuz, the U.S. Navy would smash the attempted blockade.

I was referring to oil, which is also what you were referring to prior to this post. As for specific geological locations of international trade, I hadn't considered that. Ironically though, most people consider international trade to be horrible, and logically should be in favor of such trade routes being closed. However, as it relates to my anti-intervention policy, I don't know... I hadn't considered this. I'll have to think about it.

Political sentiment changes more rapidly than nation's interests change. Not surprisingly, even as the U.S. elected Democrats and Republicans during the Cold War, there was a great deal of continuity in U.S. foreign policy vis-a-vis the Soviet Union.

Actually, from the reading I have done about the cold war, it seems clear we didn't have a consistent policy at all. Many of the conflicts that started during that time, were situations created in many cases by us not having a consistent policy.

If you're suggesting military intervention should be a last resort, I agree. In most cases, many other diplomatic and other non-military approaches can be undertaken before military action becomes necessary. Non-military engagement via foreign aid, trade ties, etc., can and should be undertaken far more regularly.

No, I am suggesting that all action, non-military, diplomatic or otherwise, should be a last resort. For example, Iran. We shouldn't be having talks with Iran at all. The last 20 years should be proof that talking does nothing. We've talked, and talked, and talked, and talked, and golly.... we're still exactly where we were before. Same with North Korea. We've talked and talked and talked, and what a shock... 20 years later, we find out they were lying the entire time?

No, we should have more of the Bush system. We wait until we have absolutely no alternative but to take action. Then we go to them and say here's the deal... you do X, Y, and Z, or we smash you. Then they either do X Y and Z, or we smash them.

Going to Korea back in the 90s, and saying don't do this or else, and then they do it anyway and we do nothing, only makes us look like a paper tiger, and that virtually guarantees that they are going to force us to use force. See now, because we have babbled at them for 20 years and never done anything, now the *ONLY* way to make them see we're serious is to start dropping bombs. This is the natural result of 'blaw blaw' diplomacy for 20 years without backing it with action.

So no, ANY action AT ALL, should be the last resort, and when we do anything, we should go in 100%.

Of course there is risk. One of the lessons is that effective foreign policy needs a corresponding public relations strategy. That won't eliminate all such risk, but it can mitigate the risk. Although the toppling of the Allende regime, which was rapidly transforming itself into a dictatorship, was beneficial to U.S. interests, the U.S. did not directly topple the regime. It did threaten to cut aid for the anti-democratic policies that were being imposed and did not take a stance that the government should not be challenged by domestic elements (certain military officers) in Chile. Following the coup, it did not take a position that the Allende regime should be restored. Of course, when Allende committed suicide, that was not possible anyway.

And we should not threaten to cut aid either. Of course I would suggest we should be in the business of giving aid. But the problem with cutting aid is that, this just gives a dictatorship, or any socialist government, that ability to shift blame for bad policies.

I am skeptical of your claim it can mitigate risk.

If the series of events that had been underway in Chile during the early 1970s was underway today, the U.S. would have played an even lesser role. Were situations such as the Vietnam War or coup in Chile or civil war in Nicaragua to have unfolded today, the U.S. response would have been far more restrained than it was during the Cold War. During the Cold War, national security interests made it impossible for the U.S. to be indifferent to events such events. Today, that is not the case. There are no compelling interests that justify intervention in Syria.

The soviet union was ultimately done in by the complete failure that is all socialism. So I'm not sure it was necessary for us to be involved in preventing the spread of socialism.

My reference to Containment related to the narrower WMD issue. Iraq was clearly engaging in provocations. But post-Iraq war, it was revealed that the Containment regime had proved surprisingly effective. Iraq had not redeveloped WMD. Moreover, from a geopolitical standpoint, Iraq had been a counterweight to Iran. Following the war, Iran has been pursuing a course that is threatening to transform the region's balance of power. Iraq no longer serves as a counterweight.

I'm not convinced that Iraq was a counterweight to Iran after the end of the Iraq-Iran war. Clearly during the 80s it was, but I don't see that Iran was being held back during the 90s.

And again, with 20-20 hindsight, it's easy to say Iraq wasn't a threat. That doesn't change the fact that at the time, Iraq was a very real threat. It's not like if they were in fact developing dirty radioactive bombs to pass off to terrorist groups, that Iraq would have advertised it in the New York Times.

A president, or anyone really, can only go based on the information readily available, and that information suggested that Iraq was trying to develop such weapons, and was trying to gain a working relationship with terrorist groups. I don't know about you, but I don't want a president that is so pathetic, as to wait only until after a national danger physically happens, to react. We knew about Osama back in the 90s, and Clinton refused to do anything. We know about the Ayatollah Khomeini in the late 70s, and Carter refused to do anything. So 9/11 happens, and a 52 hostages are dragged through the streets of Tehran.

This is the natural result of waiting until something bad happens, because the intelligence could be wrong....

Resource nationalism is separate from nationalization. Resource nationalism means that countries will not engage in trade of resources on economic considerations alone. Resources will be used as a lever for advancing national interests regardless of market-based interests. Russia has used resource nationalism via suspension of natural gas transmission. China is engaging in it by reducing its export of rare earth minerals, even as a ready and growing global market exists for those minerals.

Russia is a bad example. They stopped piping the gas because a country the gas went through, was diverting the gas and not paying for it. That's a market system, granted run by the government, but it's no less a market system than you refusing to pay for your car and having it repo'd.

China is a slightly better example because they have a very large share of the market. But ironically, just like oil, if you refuse to sell, you'll just drive other people to produce more, or drive consumers to find alternatives.
Toyota finds alternative to rare earth metals for hybrids: report | Car Advice

As such, the market will naturally diversify sources of commodities, if someone tries to clamp down on the market. At some point China will lose it's monopoly power (unless it stops playing the market) and when that happens the market will drop to the competitive price, regardless of China.

Again, Venezuela tried that with oil, and it failed miserably. Why? Because when they cut production, that pushes up the price, which drive others to increase production. The market will always win out eventually.

Pre- and post-TARP developments tell the story. Stabilization only occurred months after TARP. A free fall was underway prior to TARP.

The free-fall was due to Sub-prime Mortgage Backed Securities, that had once (because of government) been considered 'safe', being considered unsafe. That fall was good and needed. The whole problem was people making bad loans and selling them. The reason they were able to sell these bad loans, was because people still considered them 'safe'. So those assets needed to be devalued, and that naturally caused a fall in the market.

The stabilization of those assets is not a good thing in my book. It means that poor people were taxed to pay rich people for bad assets. When stabilization means poor people paying rich, that's not a 'stabilization' I support.

We needed those assets to crash in value, to whatever the market value was. That would force people to consider what they were investing in more carefully, so that such a problem didn't happen again. Instead, we have merely made it safe to invest in bad assets again. And no amount of regulation is going to change that.

That's incorrect. Iceland nationalized most of its banking system.

When a bank in the US, crashes, the FDIC takes procession, and places it into receivership, where it is shut down and the assets sold off.

During this time, you could say the bank was nationalized because the FDIC is a government entity.

This is what happened in Iceland. It wasn't nationalized like the government owned and ran the banks, like India for example. It was nationalized in that it was assumed controlled by a government agency, where it was liquidated and run down.

That is because when Iceland's banks went spectacularly bust, instead of pouring in billions of taxpayers' money to shore them up, Iceland just closed them down.

Their debts were so huge that, in truth, the country had little choice. Nevertheless, it was a radical strategy. Iceland effectively said "stuff you" to the banks' creditors.

Foreign debts were written off - including $8bn (£4.9bn) of deposits from savers in the UK and Holland. "Bankrupting your way to recovery," it has been called.

Iceland's banking debt was actually far larger a portion of their GDP, than the bad debt of our banks compared to our GDP. So in many ways, the relative debt of Iceland was far greater, than here in the US.

Yet, instead of bailing them out, they simply shut them down.

Iceland's president is certainly convinced the strategy is working. Olafur Ragnar Grimsson reels off a series of impressive economic statistics when I meet him in his stark mansion on a forbidding spit of land jutting out into the bay outside Reykjavik.

He tells me how the economy is now growing faster than that of most other European countries and with a lower public sector deficit. Unemployment is falling and Iceland has just raised a billion dollars at favourable rates on the international market.

BBC News - Could Iceland be a model for debt-ridden Europe?

Yet instead of the economic doomsday predicted, Iceland is growing, and fast than most of Europe now who are still dealing with the crisis.

Ironically, this isn't the first time the strategy was tried and succeeded. In the 90s, Estonia adopted Milton Friedman's views, and among other reforms, like flat tax and free-markets, they also determined to allow banks to fail. Most of Europe and even Russia pressured Estonia to not allow their banking system to fail. But the president persisted, and a dozen of the largest banks went bankrupt. Since then Estonia became one of the three Baltic Tigers.

I see a pattern. What do you think?
 
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