Marines discharge sergeant for Facebook posts for criticizing President Barack Obama

Re: Hopefully this is the LAST time...

Arbo said:

That's why I bolded 'simplify'. No point in dragging it out long and detailed.

I am glad was already out of the Navy by the time Facebook came around.

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Facebook...when I got out we were lucky to have a NES in the shop for when there wasn't anything on either of the two TV channels we got...

Re: Hopefully this is the LAST time...

Thunder said:

and banning them from EVER again having a Federal job? seems pretty authoritarian to me.

and what were their selfish & greedy demands? better working conditions and a regular work week. God forbid.

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they broke federal law,since that union was working for the federal government,those employees were forbidden by law from striking.

also what they demanded was a 32 hour work week and a massive pay increase,though that didnt matter somuch their demands as much as they broke federal law and disrupted the airline industry.of all they things they were allowed to do,they did the ONE that was completely illegal for them to do.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Wake said:

Marines discharge sergeant for Facebook posts - Yahoo! News

What are your thoughts on this?

Do you think they went too far in punishment?

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They definitely took it too far. Its not like he showed up at a rally in uniform criticizing the president or anything.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Omgitsme said:

They definitely took it too far. Its not like he showed up at a rally in uniform criticizing the president or anything.

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The thing is, Sergeant Stein was warned at least once that his actions were unacceptable under the current social media policy, and was given the chance to reverse what he did. I feel for the guy and it sucks that his career went down the tube for a couple words he posted on facebook, but the rules are clear. Don't undermine the chain of command.

Re: Hopefully this is the LAST time...

Redress said:

Facebook...when I got out we were lucky to have a NES in the shop for when there wasn't anything on either of the two TV channels we got...

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NES? You should have been working, not playing primitive video games.

Re: Hopefully this is the LAST time...

Arbo said:

NES? You should have been working, not playing primitive video games.

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Yet another reason brownshoe > blackshoe

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

StillBallin75 said:

The thing is, Sergeant Stein was warned at least once that his actions were unacceptable under the current social media policy, and was given the chance to reverse what he did. I feel for the guy and it sucks that his career went down the tube for a couple words he posted on facebook, but the rules are clear. Don't undermine the chain of command.

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Yeah I didnt even realize that post went through. I thought I pushed cancel in time. I assumed he just said something along the lines of I dont agree with the president not I wont follow any of his orders. So I take back my post and agree that he should have been discharged.

Re: Marines discharge sergeant for Facebook posts for criticizing President Barack Ob

The first article I read on this lead me to think the Marine shouldn’t have been discharged. It quoted some of the criticisms the Marine made about Obama but they weren’t too over the top. Also, he is enlisted and enlisted members have a bit more leeway under the UCMJ in this area than officers do.

But I kept digging and found some other things he posted regarding Obama:

“Obama is the economic enemy”
“He is the religious enemy”
“He is a coward”
“He IS the Domestic Enemy”
"As an active duty Marine, I say screw Obama and I will not follow any orders from him” (he later said he meant ‘unlawful’ orders)
“I will not salute him"
He superimposed Obama’s face on a poster for the movie Jackass

Currently those of us in the military do NOT have the same freedom of speech as civilians. We can argue over whether or not that law is just, but it is the law. You can criticize the policies of a President without attacking him or trying to undermine him as the CinC. It is done every day by service members all around the world, including on this very board. This Marine crossed the line.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

No matter how much you dislike Hussein Obama you have to respect the office of the presidency.....

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Wake said:

Marines discharge sergeant for Facebook posts - Yahoo! News

What are your thoughts on this?

Do you think they went too far in punishment?

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Kinda bummed a NCO lost his benefits. I will give at the VFW for this guy.

I should mention, he needed to be booted, and I don't support what he did. I just don't think they should have taken his benefits. He earned those.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Blue_State said:

Kinda bummed a NCO lost his benefits. I will give at the VFW for this guy.

I should mention, he needed to be booted, and I don't support what he did. I just don't think they should have taken his benefits. He earned those.

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You just can't do what he did....I feel sorry for the guy to but he is lucky to did not go to jail......

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

The guy has a right to his POV and should not have been discharged for his speech. If his actions dictated that he put into practice his speech, then absolutely he should be discharged. This is a clear violation of the guys Free speech rights. I suspect he will win in court.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

disneydude said:

The guy has a right to his POV and should not have been discharged for his speech. If his actions dictated that he put into practice his speech, then absolutely he should be discharged. This is a clear violation of the guys Free speech rights. I suspect he will win in court.

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His statements go against military law. He is going to lose.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

disneydude said:

The guy has a right to his POV and should not have been discharged for his speech. If his actions dictated that he put into practice his speech, then absolutely he should be discharged. This is a clear violation of the guys Free speech rights. I suspect he will win in court.

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not a chance
what he says as a civilian in his civilian is one thing, and protected as you have recognized

but that was not his action. he wrote in his capacity as a member of the armed forces, subordinate to the commander in chief. that aspect of the situation is what did him in

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

We'll see. I'm not up at all on military law, but I'm not sure that a person completely gives up their first amendment rights when they join the military. Even if they have a right to discharge him, I'm not sure that they can dishonorably discharge him and deny him his benefits based on his speech. I very well could be wrong....like I said, I'm not familiar with military law, but it just goes against my legal instincts.

Re: Marines discharge sergeant for Facebook posts for criticizing President Barack Ob

muciti said:

I do not agree with it. Freedom of speech. If he was disobeying orders that would be one thing, but I dont know that to be the case.

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Most servicemembers are aware that they are not supposed to bad mouth the president in public. The troops have to show common respect to him. If the government allowed disrespect to run throughout the troops, they could refuse to take orders or even turn against the public and common interests.

Re: Hopefully this is the LAST time...

Thunder said:

you mean like when Reagan fired 11,000 air traffic-controllers and banned from ever having a Federal job again?

that kind of liberty and working together?

and what did these evil air-traffic controllers do? they demanded better working conditions and a regular work week. those Commy bastards!!!!

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Maybe it wasn't so much what they demanded, but how they demanded it.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

disneydude said:

The guy has a right to his POV and should not have been discharged for his speech. If his actions dictated that he put into practice his speech, then absolutely he should be discharged. This is a clear violation of the guys Free speech rights. I suspect he will win in court.

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He was under a contract with the military. That contract has stipulations about what authority you are under. Clearly he broke the rules. As Redress said, you have some Constitutional rights, but the same was civilians.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

disneydude said:

We'll see. I'm not up at all on military law, but I'm not sure that a person completely gives up their first amendment rights when they join the military. Even if they have a right to discharge him, I'm not sure that they can dishonorably discharge him and deny him his benefits based on his speech. I very well could be wrong....like I said, I'm not familiar with military law, but it just goes against my legal instincts.

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A person does not give up all of their free speach rights, but those rights are curtailed to an extent. That issue here is not whether he had any free speach rights, but that he exceeded what rights he does have and then violated his lawful orders when told to stop. While they could have taken him to a court martial and giving him a dishonorable, that would have been way out of line for the offense in this case. NJP and other than honorable where appropriate.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Would someone provide examples of quotes that are OK, and those that cross the line?

It'd be terrible if soldiers could voice their opion/civilly critique the president/administration's actions.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Wake said:

Would someone provide examples of quotes that are OK, and those that cross the line?

It'd be terrible if soldiers could voice their opion/civilly critique the president/administration's actions.

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It depends. When in uniform or stating your comments as a military member, you have to answer with the military position. That is "the position of the pentagon on this issue is such and such", which makes clear that it may not be your opinion, but that it is the official opinion. ON facebook, I think(we did not have facebook nor the internet when I served, so I could be wrong) you can state your opinion on issues as long as you do not invoke your military status or suggest breaking military regulations nor US laws. We were told that if we were approached while in civilian clothes by reporters, we could offer our opinions, but that we had to make it clear that those where our personal opinions and not those of our command, branch of service, the military our the government.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Redress said:

It depends. When in uniform or stating your comments as a military member, you have to answer with the military position. That is "the position of the pentagon on this issue is such and such", which makes clear that it may not be your opinion, but that it is the official opinion. ON facebook, I think(we did not have facebook nor the internet when I served, so I could be wrong) you can state your opinion on issues as long as you do not invoke your military status or suggest breaking military regulations nor US laws. We were told that if we were approached while in civilian clothes by reporters, we could offer our opinions, but that we had to make it clear that those where our personal opinions and not those of our command, branch of service, the military our the government.

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Interesting.

I guess there's a balance of sorts, though it's understandable how some soldiers get pissed off with the higher-ups. You would not believe some of the things my brother-in-law has to deal with. Apparently his friend video-taped the actions of some sargeants and other military higher-ups peeing on corpses/etc. If he were to reveal the evidence he'd be fired, so he just has to shut up and say nothing about such actions, or be demoted or worse. There are soldiers out there who video-record and keep, ahem, the very nasty and secret parts of war that the general populace don't know about.

He's had to kill 23 insurgents. He's gone through a lot of ****, and he's expected to choke down his experiences and emotions to not make those powerful people in suits from being "offended." In my world, I would allow any severity of critique from my military, because I want to know what they think and, hell, they're ******* dying out there.

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Wake said:

Interesting.

I guess there's a balance of sorts, though it's understandable how some soldiers get pissed off with the higher-ups. You would not believe some of the things my brother-in-law has to deal with. Apparently his friend video-taped the actions of some sargeants and other military higher-ups peeing on corpses/etc. If he were to reveal the evidence he'd be fired, so he just has to shut up and say nothing about such actions, or be demoted or worse. There are soldiers out there who video-record and keep, ahem, the very nasty and secret parts of war that the general populace don't know about.

He's had to kill 23 insurgents. He's gone through a lot of ****, and he's expected to choke down his experiences and emotions to not make those powerful people in suits from being "offended." In my world, I would allow any severity of critique from my military, because I want to know what they think and, hell, they're ******* dying out there.

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First there are proper channels that any military member can go through to report violations of orders/proper conduct/military rules, no matter their rank or the relative rank of those involved, particularly with evidence. The only way he would get into trouble for reporting it if they had something they were keeping on him, and it would have to be very serious for any military lawyer to not be able to get him off. Or, if he released such evidence to the general public before he gave it to his COC. Even if he is afraid of some conspiracy thing going on, he can insist on going through certain channels that would ensure that a record is kept of everyone who found out about what info he had. There are issues with people trying to cover stuff up, but it isn't as widespread as people think (not with the internet available to help show proof). Just because the public doesn't find out about everyone that gets into trouble for stuff, doesn't mean that people don't get into trouble for doing stuff.

(And yes, I know that comes off as somewhat naive, but I also know that there is always someone who is eventually going to listen to you, particularly if you ensure that you have evidence of what you are reporting and evidence of who you informed. You tell enough people in the chain of command, particularly the upper chain, someone will jump on it, even if it is mainly for their own promotion/benefit.)

Second, there is a big difference between blowing off steam with friends/family by voicing how you feel about people/policies you have to deal with or that might affect your life and posting that stuff on the internet that also includes a direct link to you and your current military service/rank/info. And this guy was told to knock it off. He was even posting while on base, at work, in uniform (according to one of the initial reports on this).

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

Sarcogito said:

The first article I read on this lead me to think the Marine shouldn’t have been discharged. It quoted some of the criticisms the Marine made about Obama but they weren’t too over the top. Also, he is enlisted and enlisted members have a bit more leeway under the UCMJ in this area than officers do.

But I kept digging and found some other things he posted regarding Obama:

“Obama is the economic enemy”
“He is the religious enemy”
“He is a coward”
“He IS the Domestic Enemy”
"As an active duty Marine, I say screw Obama and I will not follow any orders from him” (he later said he meant ‘unlawful’ orders)
“I will not salute him"
He superimposed Obama’s face on a poster for the movie Jackass

Currently those of us in the military do NOT have the same freedom of speech as civilians. We can argue over whether or not that law is just, but it is the law. You can criticize the policies of a President without attacking him or trying to undermine him as the CinC. It is done every day by service members all around the world, including on this very board. This Marine crossed the line.

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Okay... so what order did he not obey? None...

This didn't occur as the result of a lack of obedience... it was because someone took a screenshot of his facebook page... that's utterly ridiculous...

This isn't a 1 time occurrence with the Obama Administration, either...

I'm sure you've all heard about the extravagant GSA meeting, and all the wasted money from the conference... and how those people resigned before being fired... the reason that came to light wasn't the huge expenditures (only $800K... which is rather menial by Government waste standards... and about what a conference for 300 employees would cost… If you figure, flight, hotel, and accommodations for 4 days…) it's because they were openly criticizing Obama's green initiatives policy...

The more controversial videos showed GSA members mocking Obama in planning for the conference, especially in regards to the green initiatives policy… but somehow they've suddenly disappeared… as the narrative is bashing them for the rap video… and the waste of money...

Before that you had the firing of Gen. Stanley McChrystal… because he spoke open and honestly to a Rolling Stone reporter… who then did him a major disservice by publicizing things most people keep off the record… Still he didn’t go against any policy… he just was open and honest with a brazen personality…

Obama relieves McChrystal of command - US news - Military - msnbc.com
The Runaway General | Politics News | Rolling Stone


There are several other cases along the same lines… but somehow, all the information on them is cleaned up from the internet, and hard to access… ill keep looking for other ones like these, where the people didn’t necessarily do anything wrong… but are forced to resign because someone forwarded up the chain that the people were criticizing the president (something which became a national pass-time for liberals under Bush)…

People who make mistakes are forced to resign often to be the scapegoat by the administration… but when the people are being targeted for speaking their honest opinion about the President’s flawed leadership… it’s not they that should be removed, it’s the President…

Re: Marines discharge Sergeant for Facebook posts criticizing President Barack Obama

I highly doubt that the President would care two bits about the opinion that an enlisted person in any branch (unless we're talking MCPON or similar level) has of him or what such a person may say about him online (to his face is most likely another matter entirely).

The chain of command however, cares a lot. It shows disrespect for leaders and has the potential to be a big problem, particularly if the President makes a policy or gives an order that might directly impact that person's life.