White House releases USD 1.5 bln aid to Egypt, meets Brotherhood figures

KUNA : White House releases USD 1.5 bln aid to Egypt, meets Brotherhood figures - Politics - 05/04/2012

I have given the POTUS the benefit of the doubt for the majority of his term in office, but if there is one thing I can not support it is the funding of theocratic groups who support barbarism and oppression straight out of the 7th century which is exactly what the POTUS has done by releasing this $1.5 Billion in U.S. taxpayer dollars to the Qutbist/Salafist ruled Egyptian government.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Stormageddon said:

KUNA : White House releases USD 1.5 bln aid to Egypt, meets Brotherhood figures - Politics - 05/04/2012

I have given the POTUS the benefit of the doubt for the majority of his term in office, but if there is one thing I can not support it is the funding of theocratic groups who support barbarism and oppression straight out of the 7th century which is exactly what the POTUS has done by releasing this $1.5 Billion in U.S. taxpayer dollars to the Qutbist/Salafist ruled Egyptian government.

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Although the Muslim Brotherhood isn't worth defending against criticism, your title is quite misleading seeing as we're simply giving foreign aid to the country itself not a particular group or subset of individuals. Funding a notoriously violent group (Hypothetically and indirectly that is, since we have absolutely no way of knowing how the money will be allocated) is immoral in my opinion, but then again so is funding a dictator for several decades in the same country.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Hare said:

Although the Muslim Brotherhood isn't worth defending against criticism, your title is quite misleading seeing as we're simply giving foreign aid to the country itself not a particular group or subset of individuals.

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That's like saying that giving foreign aid to Nazi Germany wouldn't be funding the Nazi's themselves, the Qutbists and Salafists are now the overwhelming majority within the Egyptian government.

Funding a notoriously violent group (Hypothetically and indirectly that is, since we have absolutely no way of knowing how the money will be allocated) is immoral in my opinion, but then again so is funding a dictator for several decades in the same country.

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That dictator at least kept the tenuous peace with Israel; whereas, the MB says they will not respect the treaty and we now have rocket fire coming from the Sinai.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Stormageddon said:

That's like saying that giving foreign aid to Nazi Germany wouldn't be funding the Nazi's themselves, the Qutbists and Salafists are now the overwhelming majority within the Egyptian government.



That dictator at least kept the tenuous peace with Israel; whereas, the MB says they will not respect the treaty and we now have rocket fire coming from the Sinai.

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You may make that comparison if you would like, but it's a little bit of a stretch for me at this point and time seeing as we haven't had any amount of time or actual legislative action to judge the true motives of the elected representatives themselves.

Supporting a dictator no matter how benevolent to Israel, is no more virtuous than supporting rebels, radicals, or whatever you may wish to label them as.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Hare said:

You may make that comparison if you would like, but it's a little bit of a stretch for me at this point and time seeing as we haven't had any amount of time or actual legislative action to judge the true motives of the elected representatives themselves.

Supporting a dictator no matter how benevolent to Israel, is no more virtuous than supporting rebels, radicals, or whatever you may wish to label them as.

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Judge the true motives of the Muslim Brotherhood? Really? :lamo

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

So the US govt. has to borrow approx. 40% of tthe 1.5Billion. and what will we get for it?

Does Obama really think the Egyptian people will remember or be thankfull to the American people?

I don't think so.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Stormageddon said:

KUNA : White House releases USD 1.5 bln aid to Egypt, meets Brotherhood figures - Politics - 05/04/2012

I have given the POTUS the benefit of the doubt for the majority of his term in office, but if there is one thing I can not support it is the funding of theocratic groups who support barbarism and oppression straight out of the 7th century which is exactly what the POTUS has done by releasing this $1.5 Billion in U.S. taxpayer dollars to the Qutbist/Salafist ruled Egyptian government.

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We are in debt.It doesn't matter what kind of group it is. The president shouldn't be giving out cash to other countries.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Hare said:

You may make that comparison if you would like, but it's a little bit of a stretch for me at this point and time seeing as we haven't had any amount of time or actual legislative action to judge the true motives of the elected representatives themselves.

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The MB has a long and notorious track record, they stand for what they have always stood for which is pan-Islamism, and puritanical theocratic rule. Their motto: "God is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations."

Supporting a dictator no matter how benevolent to Israel, is no more virtuous than supporting rebels, radicals, or whatever you may wish to label them as.

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I would rather live under a secular dictatorship than a theocracy and I'm sure the minorities of Egypt would agree.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Obama probably thinks he's buying some measure of protection.

For someone everyone says is so smart, he seems rather dumb to me...kind of like Chamberlain was.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Mycroft said:

Obama probably thinks he's buying some measure of protection.

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Must be stressful to see the worst possible motivations in everything the president does.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Mycroft said:

Obama probably thinks he's buying some measure of protection.

For someone everyone says is so smart, he seems rather dumb to me...kind of like Chamberlain was.

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... yeah... Chamberlain authorized the killing of Hitler when he had the chance right? What about send troops to Germany? Chamberlain do that too? Did he send troops into Poland? Yeah... Obama is kind of like Chamberlain if you live in a universe where oceans are made of Reductio Ad Hitlerum.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Hatuey said:

... yeah... Chamberlain authorized the killing of Hitler when he had the chance right? What about send troops to Germany? Chamberlain do that too? Did he send troops into Poland? Yeah... Obama is kind of like Chamberlain if you live in a universe where oceans are made of Reductio Ad Hitlerum.

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No I'd say he's more like the guy paying tribute to an Imperialist organization which is a declared enemy of the United States and liberal western values in general.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Deuce said:

Must be stressful to see the worst possible motivations in everything the president does.

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I see that as the best possible motivation, the worst motivation would be that he supports the Muslim Brotherhood and believes their laughable reformed image which they're trying to sell to the western world.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Stormageddon said:

No I'd say he's more like the guy paying tribute to an Imperialist organization which is a declared enemy of the United States and liberal western values in general.

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Lolwu? Tone down the rhetoric there son - you wouldn't want to hurt yourself using nonsequiturs.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Stormageddon said:

KUNA : White House releases USD 1.5 bln aid to Egypt, meets Brotherhood figures - Politics - 05/04/2012

I have given the POTUS the benefit of the doubt for the majority of his term in office, but if there is one thing I can not support it is the funding of theocratic groups who support barbarism and oppression straight out of the 7th century which is exactly what the POTUS has done by releasing this $1.5 Billion in U.S. taxpayer dollars to the Qutbist/Salafist ruled Egyptian government.

Click to expand...

It may come as a shock, but American governments, including Republican ones, have a long history of providing support, financial and otherwise, to regimes known for their "barbarism and oppression."

During the early 1980's, the Reagan Administration continued to support Saddam Hussein in the full knowledge that he was using chemical weapons not only on the Iranians - but against his own people, the Kurds.

American's don't seem to object on moral grounds, to supporting regimes that practice "barbarism and oppression," - as long as their innocent victims happen to be somebody else!

Document 25: Department of State, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs Action Memorandum from Jonathan T. Howe to Lawrence S. Eagleburger. "Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons" [Includes Cables Entitled "Deterring Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons" and "Background of Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons"], November 21, 1983.

State Department officials recommend discussing the use of chemical weapons with Iraqi officials soon, in order to deter further use and "to avoid unpleasantly surprising Iraq through public positions we may have to take on this issue." A background cable says that Iraq used lethal chemical weapons in October 1982 and, reportedly, against Iranian forces July and August 1983 "and more recently against Kurdish insurgents."

Source: Declassified under the Freedom of Information Act

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/#docs

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Document 52: Department of State Cable from George P. Shultz to the United States Embassy in Lebanon [et al.]. "Department Press Briefing, March 30, 1984," March 31, 1984.

The State Department announces it has imposed foreign policy controls on Iran and Iraq for exports of chemical weapons precursors. It responds to questions from the press about U.S. policy regarding the Iran-Iraq war, and a department spokesperson says Iraq's chemical weapons use will not change U.S. interest in pursuing closer U.S.-Iraq relations.

Source: Declassified under the Freedom of Information Act

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/#docs

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Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Deuce said:

Must be stressful to see the worst possible motivations in everything the president does.

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Oh, it's not stressful at all, but thanks for your concern.

Anyway, given the insincere double-speak Obama regularly engages in when explaining his actions, I learned years ago to never trust his stated reasoning for anything he does.

But, at least I proposed a possible motivation...what have YOU given us?

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Hatuey said:

Lolwu? Tone down the rhetoric there son - you wouldn't want to hurt yourself using nonsequiturs.

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Excuse me but I'm not your son, that's number one, and number two he invited the MB to his Cairo speech, his administration just got out of a meeting with the MB right before they just gave the MB $1.5 Billion dollars, that's billion with a B, of U.S. taxpayer dollars. Now if that is not overt support for a declared enemy of the United States then I don't know what is.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

jamesrage said:

We are in debt.It doesn't matter what kind of group it is. The president shouldn't be giving out cash to other countries.

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I would go further and say we have to cut subsidies as well. If you are debt, and having trouble paying your bills, you don’t donate 20 bucks to the little league team down the street. Sorry.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

jgarden47 said:

It may come as a shock, but American governments, including Republican ones, have a long history of providing support, financial and otherwise, to regimes known for their "barbarism and oppression."

During the early 1980's, the Reagan Administration continued to support Saddam Hussein in the full knowledge that he was using chemical weapons not only on the Iranians - but against his own people, the Kurds.

American's don't seem to object on moral grounds, to supporting regimes that practice "barbarism and oppression," - as long as their innocent victims happen to be somebody else!

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A) We were hardly the Baathists largest supporters, you're thinking of the Soviet Union, the U.S. only provided Iraq with appx. .5% of their foreign sold arms.

B) I'm not sure how not wanting Iraq to be conquered by Iran is analogous to sending the M.B. $1.5 Billion who isn't even involved in a war let alone one in which they are close to being overrun.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

I've disagreed with conservatives who had issues with pushing for Democracy in Egypt simply because the people that the citizens pick to lead them may be people we don't like. Either you support Democracy or you support singularly your immediete self interest, but don't pander the notion that somehow you support Democracy when you do so only when benefit you in the short term, otherwise bring on the dictatorships.

HOWEVER....

Once they have democracy, if that democratically chosen leadership is such that its adverse to the interests of the US then we absolutely should treat them like any other government that is against our interests....such as not funding them. Just beecause you're a Democracy doesn't mean we need to support you and give you money and other such stuff regardless of your governments standing in terms of US Security and Interests.

I'm all for supporting any country that seeks to democratically decide its governmental direction (note, SUPPORT, not win it for them. Democracy that is given, not taken, is tenuous to succeed long term imho), regardless if that direction is going to be benefitical to us or not. While I generally believe that America should act in its own interest, I believe its LONG TERM interest is best served by being a beacon and supporter of Democracy across the world. HOWEVER, there is no reason why our government should support any government that will act adverse to America's interest.

Egypt wanted Democracy, and I support their efforts for that. Once they've gotten Democracy, they've allowed an entity that is hostile to U.S. Interests in the area to become their government. As such, that government should be treated in a way that addresses that issue.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

From the article:

The United States gives Egypt USD 1.5 billion in military aid annually that must be spent on U.S. made weapons and goods, including M1A1 tanks and F-16 fighter jets.

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Okay, can somebody explain this to me?? We're giving them money to buy stuff from us. Wouldn't that be like Snapple giving me $5 to go buy a Snapple? Wouldn't it just be easy for Snapple to hand me a drink off the assembly line instead of handing me the money, which I then hand back to another party in exchange for the item I'm being mandated to buy? Would it not be more efficient for the government to pay their defense contractor directly and have the items themselves sent over to Egypt, if we're going to be mandating the specific items they're allowed to purchase with the money?

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Blue_State said:

I would go further and say we have to cut subsidies as well. If you are debt, and having trouble paying your bills, you don’t donate 20 bucks to the little league team down the street. Sorry.

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I agree,we should cut subsidies all foreign aid,grants and many other things.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

We could have, imo, cut out the middle man and just sent 750 mil to Hamas instead. Egypt has what we think is a democracy... or what may look like a democracy. The MB has known ties to terrorist organizations and if the MB is elected as the legitimate organization running said democracy, I don't see why we are sending over borrowed billions... what are we getting for our money? I have no issue with them speaking to mid-level officials at the WH... the money? No way... not now anyway.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

Ockham said:

We could have, imo, cut out the middle man and just sent 750 mil to Hamas instead. Egypt has what we think is a democracy... or what may look like a democracy. The MB has known ties to terrorist organizations and if the MB is elected as the legitimate organization running said democracy, I don't see why we are sending over borrowed billions... what are we getting for our money? I have no issue with them speaking to mid-level officials at the WH... the money? No way... not now anyway.

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As I heard on CNN last night, the "mid level officials" include the #2 person from the State Department, not exactly mid level, just more white house spin.

Re: Obama Releases $1.5 Billion to Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt

tessaesque said:

From the article:


Okay, can somebody explain this to me?? We're giving them money to buy stuff from us. Wouldn't that be like Snapple giving me $5 to go buy a Snapple? Wouldn't it just be easy for Snapple to hand me a drink off the assembly line instead of handing me the money, which I then hand back to another party in exchange for the item I'm being mandated to buy? Would it not be more efficient for the government to pay their defense contractor directly and have the items themselves sent over to Egypt, if we're going to be mandating the specific items they're allowed to purchase with the money?

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Then how would the politicians get their cuts? They can't get their piece of the pie if we just hand them weapons...unless of course, they are taking a Hummer for their own personal use.