Jeb Bush: 'Stand Your Ground' Doesn't Apply in Trayvon Case

Crosscheck · Mar 24, 2012

Lord Tammerlain said:
Niether am I

The article does not state who started the struggle, just that Zimmerman was on the losing end of it

That is the $64,000 question. Nobody seemed to witness that part of the confrontation.
What is know that it was Zimmerman who did the initial chasing of Martin.

Bigger question is if Zimmerman already had his gun in his hand when he confronted Martin.
There is the old adage, that has merit to it, is that you charge a gun and run from a knife.

But once again this all comes back to the police dept who handled this like it was a jaywalking case.

Eighty Deuce · Mar 24, 2012

Lord Tammerlain said:
I would ask the same of you

produce evidence that Trayvon initiated first contact and assaulted Zimmerman first

Last look in. I never said he did.

I only went by the current evidence.

Are you telling us all that if you are on the ground, being beaten, that you cannot defend yourself ?

Eighty Deuce · Mar 24, 2012

Crosscheck said:
That is the $64,000 question. Nobody seemed to witness that part of the confrontation.
What is know that it was Zimmerman who did the initial chasing of Martin.

Bigger question is if Zimmerman already had his gun in his hand when he confronted Martin.
There is the old adage, that has merit to it, is that you charge a gun and run from a knife.

But once again this all comes back to the police dept who handled this like it was a jaywalking case.

Not quite. If you are standing over someone on the ground, beating and kicking them, and the cops show up, you will be charged with assault. The "he hit me first" argument will remain to be substantiated. You will certainly be charged though.

Its pretty simple, btw.

Lord Tammerlain · Mar 24, 2012

Eighty Deuce said:
Last look in. I never said he did.

I only went by the current evidence.

Are you telling us all that if you are on the ground, being beaten, that you cannot defend yourself ?

Is it a fight I started

Does the other person not have the right to defend themself as well

Or is it only me

Can I start fights, lose them and then shoot the person i was losing the fight to. If I started it, then by all rights I deserve to get my butt kicked, a broken nose is the least of it. I should not have the right to start a fight, lose it and the shoot the person I lost the fight to

If Zimmerman started the struggle, he commited murder, he was not acting in self defense, as Trayvon would have been defending himself from the fight (again if Zimmerman took the first physical action) that Zimmerman started.

Crosscheck · Mar 24, 2012

Eighty Deuce said:
Not quite. If you are standing over someone on the ground, beating and kicking them, and the cops show up, you will be charged with assault. The "he hit me first" argument will remain to be substantiated. You will certainly be charged though.

Its pretty simple, btw.

If I tried to rob you with a gun in my hand and you charged me to the ground hitting me and I was able to free my gun hand and shoot you that I should walk?

TurtleDude · Mar 24, 2012

Thunder said:
never liked the leather skirts. not ma' thang'.

the super tight ones are a bit over the top. My college girl friend had a really neat pleated one and she spent 15 years in ballet. But I suspect you got the point. the boy apparently put his hood up in an effort to avoid being seen by this guy stalking him

Eighty Deuce · Mar 24, 2012

Crosscheck said:
If I tried to rob you with a gun in my hand and you charged me to the ground hitting me and I was able to free my gun hand and shoot you that I should walk?

Folks. How about we stick with the evidence so far ? All this conjecture is truely the stuff of nonsense.

Again, if you doubt me, then ask a cop. Or an attorney. If you are, at that moment, beating and kicking someone on the ground, and the cops are called and show up seeing you do exactly that, you will be arrested. The cops, and the attorney, will tell you that once you had defended yourself, ie subdued the imminent danger to yourself, you should have stopped your assault, if you are claiming self defense for why you kicked and punched someone on the ground.

However, if you are the one on the ground, you can continue to defend yourself. You will not be charged for doing so. That includes deadly force in self defense.

Learn the law libs.

Thunder · Mar 24, 2012

TurtleDude said:
the super tight ones are a bit over the top. My college girl friend had a really neat pleated one and she spent 15 years in ballet. But I suspect you got the point. the boy apparently put his hood up in an effort to avoid being seen by this guy stalking him

I like how you think, Turtle man.

Eighty Deuce · Mar 24, 2012

TurtleDude said:
the super tight ones are a bit over the top. My college girl friend had a really neat pleated one and she spent 15 years in ballet. But I suspect you got the point. the boy apparently put his hood up in an effort to avoid being seen by this guy stalking him

Just how does "putting a hood up" make one "unseen" ?

Lord Tammerlain · Mar 24, 2012

Eighty Deuce said:
Folks. How about we stick with the evidence so far ? All this conjecture is truely the stuff of nonsense.

Again, if you doubt me, then ask a cop. Or an attorney. If you are, at that moment, beating and kicking someone on the ground, and the cops are called and show up seeing you do exactly that, you will be arrested. The cops, and the attorney, will tell you that once you had defended yourself, ie subdued the imminent danger to yourself, you should have stopped your assault, if you are claiming self defense for why you kicked and punched someone on the ground.

However, if you are the one on the ground, you can continue to defend yourself. You will not be charged for doing so. That includes deadly force in self defense.

Learn the law libs.

If Zimmerman was the person that started the fight, does it look like he was subdued, not to me it doesnt. To bad Trayvon did not have a gun to be able to defend himself properly, and truely ensure that Zimmerman was subdued and no longer presented a threat to him

ric27 · Mar 25, 2012

Lord Tammerlain said:
If Zimmerman was the person that started the fight, does it look like he was subdued, not to me it doesnt. To bad Trayvon did not have a gun to be able to defend himself properly, and truely ensure that Zimmerman was subdued and no longer presented a threat to him

Lol...what ifs' all day. **** that noise. Just stick with the evidence

Let me first say I am not a heartless uncaring SOB but that teenager. He made a choice to engage in aggravated assault on Zimmerman. He ****ing got what was coming to him. Here's a clue, if you dont engage in illegal behavior that may result in a grievous injuries to someone, you dont get shot.

Thunder · Mar 25, 2012

ric27 said:
...He made a choice to engage in aggravated assault on Zimmerman. He ****ing got what was coming to him.....

prove it.

.......

Lord Tammerlain · Mar 25, 2012

ric27 said:
Lol...what ifs' all day. **** that noise. Just stick with the evidence

Let me first say I am not a heartless uncaring SOB but that teenager. He made a choice to engage in aggravated assault on Zimmerman. He ****ing got what was coming to him. Here's a clue, if you dont engage in illegal behavior that may result in a grievous injuries to someone, you dont get shot.

Wow I should tell that to my cousin

If she wasnt engaged in illegal behavior standing next to the ex of a murdersous thug she would never have been shot

But I like your way of thinking

I am going to rob banks and shoot everyone, it is their fault for engaging in illegal activity

mogur15 · Mar 25, 2012

ric27 said:
Lol...what ifs' all day. **** that noise. Just stick with the evidence

Let me first say I am not a heartless uncaring SOB but that teenager. He made a choice to engage in aggravated assault on Zimmerman. He ****ing got what was coming to him. Here's a clue, if you dont engage in illegal behavior that may result in a grievous injuries to someone, you dont get shot.

Okay, and if you don't play a masked man with an attitude you don't become the most hated person in the world. And I AM the most uncaring heartless SOB you ever met. And I am not a teenager. I am an old man just trying my best to piss you off. How am I doing?

ric27 · Mar 25, 2012

Lord Tammerlain said:
But I like your way of thinking

Thanks, dude

Just look up the laws of the state you are in concerning use of deadly force as it pertains to citizens. Know when you can respond and with what level of force. Talk to your lawyer*if you don't, get one* in your state if you aren't sure.

Generally, you cannot use deadly force to end crimes against property. However, if you challenge them and they respond by throwing a shot at you, its a totally different game.

Remember...A human being was killed by another, that's homicide. A murder is a homicide but a homicide is not necessarily murder. But sometimes people think there is no difference.

MaggieD · Mar 25, 2012

TheDemSocialist said:
Read more @: [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]Jeb Bush: 'Stand Your Ground' Doesn't Apply in Trayvon Case

Hmmm oll Bushie the original gov who signed it into law says this shouldnt apply... Interesting turn of events in my opinon.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?

He's a bit behind the curve, since Zimmerman's lawyer has already stated SYG would not be Zimmerman's defense strategy, and he himself doesn't think it applies. His defense strategy would simply be, wait for it, self-defense.

notquiteright · Mar 25, 2012

Ahhh Mongur, ya aint all that uncaring, you asked how am I doing, so ya care some.

Trayvon couldn't have fought it out with Zimmerman like the OK corral, 17 year olds can't conceal carry in Fl.

It will be interesting to see how the officers who set the neighborhood watch up explain what they told the watchers they could and can't do. A citizen confronting another citizen who isn't engaged in any other activity other than walking while black and in a hoodie isn't covered by the stand your ground law. The neighborhood watch isn't for frustrated civilians to pretend they are cops. Unless Trayvon was beating a little old lady Zimmerman had no right to use deadly force.

It will be interesting to see how the facts unfold, right now there are too many conflicting stories and a rather bad smell coming off the Sanford PD.

Jetboogieman · Mar 25, 2012

ric27 said:
Lol...what ifs' all day. **** that noise. Just stick with the evidence

Let me first say I am not a heartless uncaring SOB but that teenager. He made a choice to engage in aggravated assault on Zimmerman. He ****ing got what was coming to him. Here's a clue, if you dont engage in illegal behavior that may result in a grievous injuries to someone, you dont get shot.

A grown man (28 years old) vs. a seventeen your old kid.

I was assaulted last night by a guest of my hotel at which I'm security, he charged me, and I would have never felt the need to shoot him dead and we were equal in size.

Even if I admit that Zimmerman was assaulted by Trayvon physically, shooting him was uncalled for if he did not present a lethal weapon in return.

Simple as that.

ric27 · Mar 25, 2012

Jetboogieman said:
A grown man (28 years old) vs. a seventeen your old kid.

I was assaulted last night by a guest of my hotel at which I'm security, he charged me, and I would have never felt the need to shoot him dead and we were equal in size.

Even if I admit that Zimmerman was assaulted by Trayvon physically, shooting him was uncalled for if he did not present a lethal weapon in return.

Simple as that.

What should have been done or wonder why things happened the way that they did. Who knows?

Suffice it to say, I have been in what could/should have been a lethal force drama, and due to some specifics in the incident, I did not pull the trigger. It would have been right if I had shot as well, but something told me NO....in that millisecond time frame. Do not to shoot

Its a gut feeling.... something that clicks in your brain at the right moment

Excon · Mar 25, 2012

Lord Tammerlain said:
the problem here is that the 17 year old did not have a gun

If he did he could have shot Zimmerman, when Zimmerman first accosted him, then he could have claimed self defense from a violent and armed pyscho

No. That would have made Trayvon guilty of murdering a NW volunteer.

Thunder said:
so because he wore his hood, he deserved to get blown away?

Hyperbole.
He was not shot because he was wearing a hood.

Lord Tammerlain said:
I would ask the same of you
produce evidence that Trayvon initiated first contact and assaulted Zimmerman first

The girlfriends's statement.- Trayvon confronted Zimmerman first with a question.
Zimmerman's statement - that he was attacked from behind.

Jetboogieman said:
A grown man (28 years old) vs. a seventeen your old kid.

A kid?
Trayvon is 17. That is a young adult.
Trayvon was at least 6 feet tall, 160lbs and athletic.

j-mac · Mar 25, 2012

Excon said:
No. That would have made Trayvon guilty of murdering a NW volunteer.

So, in Treyvon's hands, he would have been guilty of murder, in Zimmerman's hands, it was acceptable self defense eh? Don't you see your bias here?

Hyperbole.
He was not shot because he was wearing a hood.

No, he was profiled by Zimmerman because he was wearing a hoodie, or so the reports go, we don't know for sure what alerted Zimmerman to key in on him.

The girlfriends's statement.- Trayvon confronted Zimmerman first with a question.
Zimmerman's statement - that he was attacked from behind.

As I said before, the two don't make sense...Which was it?

A kid?
Trayvon is 17. That is a young adult.
Trayvon was at least 6 feet tall, 160lbs and athletic.

OMG! Of course he was a kid. 17 for your information is still a minor in the law's eyes. The fact that Zimmerman got himself in over his head in trying to detain this young man is probably a good lesson as to why you should let the police do their job and not try that yourself...You might get your ass handed to you, or end up killing someone you shouldn't have.

j-mac

ric27 · Mar 25, 2012

j-mac said:
No, he was profiled by Zimmerman because he was wearing a hoodie, or so the reports go, we don't know for sure what alerted Zimmerman to key in on him.

The fact that you called it a *hoodie* makes me like you. Perceptions often become reality

Let me explain

There is a reason for it, but it cannot be the ultimate decision for action to be taken.

The fact that many BGs commit robbery, assault and battery when so dressed. The culture of certain music promotes the thuggery, and the lifestyle and dress go hand in hand for some/ many....

People can be good or bad, no matter, the clothing they are wearing, and just the mere wearing of a hooded sweatshirt is not probable cause.

That said...a fact of life is that a lot of gang bangers do wear them, and to ignore that is also silly and foolish

Let's be honest here

MaggieD · Mar 25, 2012

ric27 said:
The fact that you called it a *hoodie* makes me like you. Perceptions often become reality

Let me explain

There is a reason for it, but it cannot be the ultimate decision for action to be taken.

The fact that many BGs commit robbery, assault and battery when so dressed. The culture of certain music promotes the thuggery, and the lifestyle and dress go hand in hand for some/ many....

People can be good or bad, no matter, the clothing they are wearing, and just the mere wearing of a hooded sweatshirt is not probable cause.

That said...a fact of life is that a lot of gang bangers do wear them, and to ignore that is also silly and foolish

Let's be honest here

In Illinois, if you wear a hoodie into a bank, the security guard can shoot you.

/sarcasm

Excon · Mar 25, 2012

j-mac said:
So, in Treyvon's hands, he would have been guilty of murder, in Zimmerman's hands, it was acceptable self defense eh? Don't you see your bias here?

With the evidence we have, no.

j-mac said:
No, he was profiled by Zimmerman because he was wearing a hoodie, or so the reports go, we don't know for sure what alerted Zimmerman to key in on him.

Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious before he put the hood up. Yea, that's right. Before.
The hoodie crap is just that. Crap

j-mac said:
As I said before, the two don't make sense...Which was it?

They are consistent.
I am sure you know the difference between consistent and corroborates.
They do make sense. Figure it out.

j-mac said:
OMG! Of course he was a kid. 17 for your information is still a minor in the law's eyes. The fact that Zimmerman got himself in over his head in trying to detain this young man is probably a good lesson as to why you should let the police do their job and not try that yourself...You might get your ass handed to you, or end up killing someone you shouldn't have.

Oh Your God whatever. 17 is old enough to be on his own as an emancipated minor.
17 is old enough to go to be tried as an adult.
Focusing on calling him a kid, is bs.

Blue_State · Mar 26, 2012

Eighty Deuce said:
LOL ..... post evidence that Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon ? It may not have been the best idea for Zimmerman to get out of his car and say anything, but it is not against any law. Assault is ... btw Ever been on neighborhood watch ? Reporting folks is what you're supposed to do, and it does not make one a psycho.

Here's the recent Trayvon. Seen this photo in the media ? LOL ... "No" ... you see the 13 year old Trayvon. Why not use a current photo?

View attachment 67124759

All 7 pounds of him were real scary. I don't think these pictures help your case.

Jeb Bush: 'Stand Your Ground' Doesn't Apply in Trayvon Case

Crosscheck

Eighty Deuce

Eighty Deuce

Lord Tammerlain

Crosscheck

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Eighty Deuce

Thunder

Eighty Deuce

Lord Tammerlain

ric27

Thunder

Lord Tammerlain

mogur15

ric27

MaggieD

notquiteright

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon

ric27

Excon

j-mac

ric27

MaggieD

Excon

Blue_State