• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

Article 89—Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer

Obama isn't a commissioned officer. He's an elected civilian politician. :lamo

Allow me to show you the actual DOD regulations:

4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

4.1.1.6. Write a letter to the editor of a newspaper expressing the member’s personal views on public issues or political candidates, if such action is not part of an organized letter-writing campaign or a solicitation of votes for or against a political party or partisan political cause or candidate. If the letter identifies the member as on active duty (or if the member is otherwise reasonably identifiable as a member of the Armed Forces), the letter should clearly state that the views expressed are those of the individual only and not those of the Department of Defense (or Department of Homeland Security for members of the Coast Guard).

You're welcome.
 
Anyone foolish enough to disrespect their boss on Facebook these days is kind of asking for something to be dropped on them from a great height.

Except Obama isn't this man's boss and this isn't a civilian job.
 
Obama isn't a commissioned officer. He's an elected civilian politician. :lamo

He's the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. You think there's a lesser duty to respect the Commander in Chief than there is to respect some 22-year-old ROTC grad? :2rofll:
 
Except Obama isn't this man's boss and this isn't a civilian job.

WTF are you talking about? The Commander in Chief is every troopers' boss -- from a rank private to a four-star admiral.
 
Military members can exercise free speech and even participate in political parties and express their opinions, but they cannot do so as a member of the military only as a private citizen. If you first post that you are a member of the military, then you limit your options. The problem this sergeant faces is because he identified himself as a Marine while making the statement. Had he never actually mentioned his being a Marine, then he would of been ok, unless of course he is a Commissioned Officer, in which case there is a UMCJ article for contempt towards public officials. But having mentioned and identfied himself as a Marine, he is then "speaking" as a Marine, not a private citizen. It is a very thin line, and one I would not recommend any member of the armed forces to approach. There are members of this forum who are active duty, if they post with a comment identifying themselves as active duty then express a political opinion, then they also have crossed the line and will and should be held accountable for their actions if brought to the attention of their commanders. However, if they never post that they are active duty members, then they have the same right to post their opinions here as anyone else. Their right to Free Speech is limited, not totatlly taken away.

Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.

He crossed the line after having been priviously informed of his actions were in violation of existing Regulations and Orders. It is that failure to follow orders that gets him into trouble under the UCMJ. Conduct Unbecoming may also be thrown in there. If he rejects non-judicial punishment, then the commander within his chain of command that has Courts Martial authority could then order a trial. Under non-judicial punishment, he can receive extra duties (limited), reduced in grade (but the amount of reduction is limited), be fined (also limited) and dismissed with a General Discharge, Under Other Than Honorable Conditions, which can be appealed and sometimes are upgraded to Honorable. If found guilty in a Military Court, depending on the level of Courts Martial, it is a felony conviction on your record with loss of gun rights, voting rights and others, he can be given confinement at hard labor, forfiture of all pay and allowences, reduction to E-1 and given a Bad Conduct Discharge or a Dishonarable Discharge, neither of which can be upgraded unless he wins an appeal of his conviction, they allowable punishments is determined by the level of Courts Martial called, but all guilty verdicts of any Courts Martial are a felony conviction. This is not a case which he would want to be put before a Marine/Navy Judge or a panel of Marine/Navy NCOs and Officers.
 
Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.

That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.
 
That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.

Any serviceman has the right to refuse to follow any order that he deems unlawful, regardless of rank. Now, when it comes time for the courts martial it's crap shoot to see whether, or not the order was actually unlawful or immoral, but there it is.
 
He's the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. You think there's a lesser duty to respect the Commander in Chief than there is to respect some 22-year-old ROTC grad? :2rofll:

CIC, yes. Commisioned officer, no. Huge difference.

The CIC does rate a certain amount of military courtesy. Barack Obama, as a person and a politician, doesn't.
 
WTF are you talking about? The Commander in Chief is every troopers' boss -- from a rank private to a four-star admiral.

There are no bosses in the service. There are leaders and commanders. Leaders supervise soldiers and commanders supervise leaders. Because of the chain of command, the CIC isn't a private's, "boss".
 
Military members can exercise free speech and even participate in political parties and express their opinions, but they cannot do so as a member of the military only as a private citizen. If you first post that you are a member of the military, then you limit your options. The problem this sergeant faces is because he identified himself as a Marine while making the statement. Had he never actually mentioned his being a Marine, then he would of been ok, unless of course he is a Commissioned Officer, in which case there is a UMCJ article for contempt towards public officials. But having mentioned and identfied himself as a Marine, he is then "speaking" as a Marine, not a private citizen. It is a very thin line, and one I would not recommend any member of the armed forces to approach. There are members of this forum who are active duty, if they post with a comment identifying themselves as active duty then express a political opinion, then they also have crossed the line and will and should be held accountable for their actions if brought to the attention of their commanders. However, if they never post that they are active duty members, then they have the same right to post their opinions here as anyone else. Their right to Free Speech is limited, not totatlly taken away.

Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.

He crossed the line after having been priviously informed of his actions were in violation of existing Regulations and Orders. It is that failure to follow orders that gets him into trouble under the UCMJ. Conduct Unbecoming may also be thrown in there. If he rejects non-judicial punishment, then the commander within his chain of command that has Courts Martial authority could then order a trial. Under non-judicial punishment, he can receive extra duties (limited), reduced in grade (but the amount of reduction is limited), be fined (also limited) and dismissed with a General Discharge, Under Other Than Honorable Conditions, which can be appealed and sometimes are upgraded to Honorable. If found guilty in a Military Court, depending on the level of Courts Martial, it is a felony conviction on your record with loss of gun rights, voting rights and others, he can be given confinement at hard labor, forfiture of all pay and allowences, reduction to E-1 and given a Bad Conduct Discharge or a Dishonarable Discharge, neither of which can be upgraded unless he wins an appeal of his conviction, they allowable punishments is determined by the level of Courts Martial called, but all guilty verdicts of any Courts Martial are a felony conviction. This is not a case which he would want to be put before a Marine/Navy Judge or a panel of Marine/Navy NCOs and Officers.

If this is the case, then I understand it alot better than i did.
 
That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.

Are we refering to the same article? The one posted by the OP? I see absolutely nowhere in it that he claims Obama is not the CIC. It says he critizied Obama's healthcare plan and then later, the part where the unlawful order part comes in,

He said he determined he was not in violation and relaunched the page. Last week, he said his superiors told him he could not use social media sites on government computers after he posted the message stating he would not follow the president's unlawful orders.

Stein said his statement was part of an online debate about NATO allowing U.S. troops to be tried for the Quran burnings in Afghanistan.

In that context, he said, he was stating that he would not follow orders from the president if those orders included detaining U.S. citizens, disarming them or doing anything else that he believes would violate their constitutional rights.

I guess you can interpret that however you will, but I just do not see it as him claiming Obama is not President or CIC.

Personally, if I was still on active duty, I would have to question the whole detaining American Citizens part myself, the military is not a law enforcement agency and also, I don't see where it would be legal for the US government to detain anyones citizens, encluding it's own other than those subject to the UCMJ, outside of US borders unless they were captured while engaging in armed action against our forces, then it is self defence and preventing them from further action, not acting as police.
 
Last edited:
If this is the case, then I understand it alot better than i did.

That is why there is the statement at the end

The Marine Corps said Stein is allowed to express his personal opinions as long as they do not give the impression he is speaking in his official capacity as a Marine.

Also, when on active duty you are briefed, a lot, about not using government systems for personal use, so he violated that also, unless the computer was there for Morale, Welfare and Recreation use. The article really doesn't say, just that he used a government computer to make a post.
 
Any serviceman has the right to refuse to follow any order that he deems unlawful, regardless of rank. Now, when it comes time for the courts martial it's crap shoot to see whether, or not the order was actually unlawful or immoral, but there it is.

The point is that he wasn't really objecting to the legality of any order. What he was objecting to was the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief, which is so far above his pay grade he can't even get there from here.
 
My point is that it should be allowed. The people in the military have opinions and should be free to express them.

Members of the military are free to express their political opinions, as long as they are not doing it in any official military capacity. However, that does not allow for suggesting that you will not obey the orders of your commander-in-chief. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this.
 
SO you support suppression of free speech as long as the government says so?

The military is NOT a democracy, and the 1st Amendment rights of servicemembers are abridged. It's in the damn contract when you sign up. It's a "buyer's beware" kinda thing.
 
The military is NOT a democracy, and the 1st Amendment rights of servicemembers are abridged. It's in the damn contract when you sign up. It's a "buyer's beware" kinda thing.

At this point Muciti is saying (I think) is arguing they have full 1st amendment rights, only that they SHOULD have full first amendment rights.

That is Muciti's opinion and he's free to it, I just happen to disagree with it.
 
At this point Muciti is saying (I think) is arguing they have full 1st amendment rights, only that they SHOULD have full first amendment rights.

That is Muciti's opinion and he's free to it, I just happen to disagree with it.

I agree with you here. Soldiers need to be soldiers. It is a volunteer military, and when you are done volunteering, you can speak out all you want. It doesn't help while they are in though.
 
Members of the military are free to express their political opinions, as long as they are not doing it in any official military capacity. However, that does not allow for suggesting that you will not obey the orders of your commander-in-chief. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this.

This Marine sai that he wouldn't follow unlawful orders, issued by the CIC. Not only is it his right to say that, it's his duty to refuse to carry an order that is unlawful, or immoral.
 
U.S. Marine faces boot for anti-Obama Facebook posts

To me, this is pretty messed up. Military should be allowed to speak their minds and give their opinions about what they are doing.

The President is the "Commander in Chief"... It doesn't work and the folks who sign on the dotted line understand the rights they give up. IMO this marine understood this and is doing this to get attention.
 
This Marine sai that he wouldn't follow unlawful orders, issued by the CIC. Not only is it his right to say that, it's his duty to refuse to carry an order that is unlawful, or immoral.

The thing is that he is not the final arbiter of what orders are lawful or not. So he should not be putting out that he would refuse to obey specific orders, particularly those that he put out because he feels they are not lawful. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with him on an order to arrest others, even if his belief is that it is for burning Qurans, is going to be unlawful.
 
It's the same in the private sector. Most companies of a decent size now have IT security teams that exist to protect a companies online identity from slander, off color remarks about the company, etc...and mostly, they do this against current employees of the company.


For instance, you're a mid manager of some manufacturing company, and you have a bone to pick with one thing or another, and you blog about it, or rant on facebook about it.

This ,realistically, could get you into trouble, if it shows the company in a bad light. And it's legal, because they make you sign a contract when you become employed.
 
The thing is that he is not the final arbiter of what orders are lawful or not. So he should not be putting out that he would refuse to obey specific orders, particularly those that he put out because he feels they are not lawful. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with him on an order to arrest others, even if his belief is that it is for burning Qurans, is going to be unlawful.

Actually, in many ways he is. Ever since the Nuremburg Trials, following orders is not a accepted defence for committing crimes. Each and every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine must evaluate the legality of an order. Most times this is not a problem. However, sometimes the question does arise. Violating someones civil rights in a war zone is a war crime and "I was following Orders" does not get you a free pass in any trial. Considering the nature of this directive/law/order about arresting civilians in another country, the military as a whole should be trying to get a court to give a constitutional judgment before ever trying it, however, if they don't, then each and every person given an order to arrest a civilian will have to make the judgment themselves since they can be held accountable, personally, if someones rights are violated. This particular order, to arrest civilians, places military personnel in a very bad position, they can face charges of disobeying an order if they don't follow it and they could face prosection for violating civil rights if the do and it is later found unconstitutional and it could potentially open them to civil suits as well as criminal charges. While I do not personally think that they would come back on individual Soldiers and Marines, all it would take is one Federal Prosecutor that is against the war and wants to highlight the "abuse" and all of those who did follow the order would then face possible charges.
 
Actually, in many ways he is. Ever since the Nuremburg Trials, following orders is not a accepted defence for committing crimes. Each and every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine must evaluate the legality of an order. Most times this is not a problem. However, sometimes the question does arise. Violating someones civil rights in a war zone is a war crime and "I was following Orders" does not get you a free pass in any trial. Considering the nature of this directive/law/order about arresting civilians in another country, the military as a whole should be trying to get a court to give a constitutional judgment before ever trying it, however, if they don't, then each and every person given an order to arrest a civilian will have to make the judgment themselves since they can be held accountable, personally, if someones rights are violated. This particular order, to arrest civilians, places military personnel in a very bad position, they can face charges of disobeying an order if they don't follow it and they could face prosection for violating civil rights if the do and it is later found unconstitutional and it could potentially open them to civil suits as well as criminal charges. While I do not personally think that they would come back on individual Soldiers and Marines, all it would take is one Federal Prosecutor that is against the war and wants to highlight the "abuse" and all of those who did follow the order would then face possible charges.

Right, if it's an order that a person knows will have lasting damage if he doesn't disobey (arresting civilians (not combatants), raping, killing, something to that affect). No soldier, sailor, marine, or airman would ever get in trouble for following an order to arrest another servicemember because it is very likely that those who decide that such an order was unlawful are going to be much higher up and perfectly capable of ensuring the person arrested is not punished.

Last I checked, unless they are on military property, servicemembers cannot arrest or otherwise do anything official to civilians. But those who burned the Qurans were not civilians. They were our servicemembers. There is no civil rights violation in arresting them. The worst that it could be is a wrongful arrest. And the order that the Marine mentioned that he wouldn't follow was that order because he believes that it would be unlawful to do so. Well I can believe that it is unlawful for the President to order me to hold his coat if he happened to visit whereever I may be stationed, but that doesn't make me right. Someone else is likely to make that decision, not me.

I'm not even commenting on whether or not arresting a servicemember for burning a Quran is lawful or not because frankly I wouldn't know. I could easily see though how it could either. I do know quite a bit about being able to refuse unlawful orders though, after all, my job in the Navy demanded that I be able to protect people and equipment from harm that might occur if I followed an order that was going to harm the reactor.
 
U.S. Marine faces boot for anti-Obama Facebook posts

To me, this is pretty messed up. Military should be allowed to speak their minds and give their opinions about what they are doing.
Absolutely they should. This one, however, is in danger of getting fired for his stated refusal to follow orders and his efforts to undermine the objectives of his employer. You can definitely get fired from any job for that.

Once again, freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences of your speech.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom