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Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

solletica said:
It's the truth, and truth is beautiful :)
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Well you and Catawba should go have a picnic together...you sound like you get along fine, both of you believing the president is a terrorist. I reckon you may have others join your party as well so bring extra napkins and bug spray.
 
solletica said:
Putting a bounty on all Muslims would be detrimental to US oil interests--i. e. the Saudi ruling family are Muslims--and so the military would never do that.
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Isn't their military Muslim as well? Consider the bounty available with just a few well placed bombs. Even at a hundred bucks each this could come to a tidy sum.

Uncle sam only labels the Muslims that endanger US corporate interests as "terrorists" and put the bounties exclusively on their turbans.
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Actually Muslims have murdered innocent people at work, on their holidays, doing their shopping, eating in restaurants, on airplanes, cruise ships, going school, waiting at bus stops,etc. What "corporate interests" are you referring to?

For example, if you live in a mineral rich country where your dictator signs an agreement w/Exxon to drill all over the place and only give a portion of the profits to the dictator and his family and none to the people, and you rebel against it, then uncle sam will brand you a "terrorist" since your actions impede Exxon.
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Perhaps a more specific example could be used, using specific data.

However, if you fight for the dictator, you will branded a "rebel" since your actions help Exxon.
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You just make it up as you go along, I see.
 
Catawba said:
I don't know about you, but I don't call someone that kills women and children in their sleep, one of my own.
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I would change "kills" to "targets", but he ain't one of us.

Wiggen said:
No, but it should. I'm imagining the reaction here if a foreign soldier in the United States (and they are here all the time on training exercises) murdered 16 American women and children and his government insisted he could only be tried there.
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This is not just "what if" and "imagine". There are specific agreements in place and international agreement standing to consider. If they insisted on prosecuting soldiers (and others, depending on circumstance), they coulda pressed that issue during the most recent contract/agreement negotiations.

muciti said:
Great point. Terrorism is terrorism.
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I made that point long before, in this thread. We will prosecute him and there are much more interesting discussions to have in regard to this even than political talking points...

Compared to Hasan? Death penalty (for both)?

Catawba said:
There is much that liberals and libertarians have in common in regards to foreign policy.
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It's where I leave libertarians (my green is free-market-based).

Ockham said:
Paul is really NOT an isolationist...
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He meant in context of foreign military policy (thus, the mentioning of hawkishness). Closing all foreign bases is crazy.

Grant said:
When a Muslim does much the same thing these excuses are never made. It seems that just being a Muslim is a ready made excuse.
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All excuses are always made. Some get more attention and some are more relevant. See also: 'blowback'.

ReverendHellh0und said:
wow, that is cuckoo bannanas!
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Such seems common around here.
 
Ecofarm: All excuses are always made. Some get more attention and some are more relevant. See also: 'blowback'.
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My point was regarding the excuses that are offered. If an American commits this sort of atrocity he is thought to be insane. No such excuse would ever be attributed to a Muslim for doing the same thing.

Did you ever hear of anyone suggesting that any Islamic terrorist was insane?
 
Grant said:
My point was regarding the excuses that are offered. If an American commits this sort of atrocity he is thought to be insane. No such excuse would ever be attributed to a Muslim for doing the same thing.

Did you ever hear of anyone suggesting that any Islamic terrorist was insane?
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how many 'sane' people do you know who blow themselves up?
 
justabubba said:
how many 'sane' people do you know who blow themselves up?
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Insanity would equate to a LACK of mental ability and resolve. People that commit such acts may be extremists...may be ideologues...but they arent 'insane'.
 
Mason66 said:
It is never a good idea to talk without having the facts. What did Obama say in his apology? He didn't know how it happened nor did he know why. Yes it is important the facts of the case.
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Fact, a soldier went into a town and killed 9 children/3 women.

Fact, that deserves an apology

Fact, it does not matter what was the reasons for these killings

Not a fact, but I do think that President Obama knew a lot more than you and I did about this case from the media. President Obama has sources that we do not have and he might have known a lot more before he made his apology.

Now an opinion but something that is just as factual to me, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were, an apology for the loss of lives was the least Obama could do IMHO.
 
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solletica said:
They are. . .



The US military uses violence (in Afghanistan, Iraq) and the threat of violence (i. e. comply w/inspections or-else) to coerce others (enemy forces into surrendering, countries to disarm) for political purposes.

Therefore, they're terrorists.
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lol, it also requires being of a sub-national character and targeting non-military and/or non-strategic targets, IE killing as many innocent people as possible with the simple intention of causing terror in a civilian population, the U.S. does its utmost to mitigate civilian casualties, your definition is a joke both legally and morally or a military no matter how just its cause would be considered a terrorist organization, next time grow up and don't get political definitions from a free dictionary, try a text book.
 
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solletica said:
There is no evidence that the US troop that fired on the civilians was not given an order to do so from a superior, or even if he had not been given an order, had a legitimate military reason for killing them.
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There's no evidence that he was not brainwashed by an extraterrestrial in order to kill these innocent civilians, we don't have all the facts yet and we may never know the truth (since those aliens don't want the world to know of their secret plans for galactic domination).
 
VanceMack said:
Insanity would equate to a LACK of mental ability and resolve. People that commit such acts may be extremists...may be ideologues...but they arent 'insane'.
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can't agree with you on your home baked definition
the staff sergeant who perpetrated the subject killing gave every indication of being resolved and having the mental acuity to inflict the wanton attack
... but possibly you are then telling us you believe his action against these women, children and other civilians was a sane act?
 
justabubba said:
can't agree with you on your home baked definition
the staff sergeant who perpetrated the subject killing gave every indication of being resolved and having the mental acuity to inflict the wanton attack
... but possibly you are then telling us you believe his action against these women, children and other civilians was a sane act?
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I dont know...havent had the convenience of actually discussing it with him. He may have a very reasoned and rational motivation (to him) and his actions post event certainly dont appear to be 'crazy' or insane.

Would you classify someone willing to die to protect their children or loved ones as insane? The woman who recently lost both her legs while protecting her children...insane? Sanity cant be defined by the act or action.
 
justabubba said:
... but possibly you are then telling us you believe his action against these women, children and other civilians was a sane act?
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It's just as credible to believe that he was bad, not mad. The jury's out, and will be for some time, I reckon. Plenty of sane people have committed appalling acts.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
What "flag" was this guys "terrorism" done?


The dude had a TBI apparently, was cleared, and snapped. War is hell, and the only "victims" aren't just the dead over there in Afghanistan, He had a wife, two kids, Can you tell me why the **** we are still in Afghanistan? where are the giant protests?
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The same flags flown by the invading armies responsible for all the civilian deaths in Afghanistan. If you want to see protests, bring back the draft where everyone has a stake in the death and destruction it brings. Why are most of the war protesters liberal? Why are none of the viable GOP candidates calling for a quicker exit from Afghanistan? Why is Romney calling for increased military spending? Why did Romney want to continue the Iraq war beyond when the President ended it?
 
Lokiate said:
Fortunately, there are people who do care, that will hopefully be able to study this event, and find ways to prevent actions like this from happening again in the future. And give me a break, of all the wrongful deaths, collateral damage done, and public outcry, you really think this is going to end the war? Keep dreaming.
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Have you ever heard of the expression, "the straw that breaks the camel's back"?

In Vietnam it was the My Lai Massacre:

Photo Gallery . My Lai . American Experience . WGBH | PBS

This doesn't look to be a bonding experience for the US and Afghanistan:

Afghanistan shooting: Protests are peaceful, but era of cooperation closing
 
Catawba said:
The same flags flown by the invading armies responsible for all the civilian deaths in Afghanistan. If you want to see protests, bring back the draft where everyone has a stake in the death and destruction it brings. Why are most of the war protesters liberal? Why are none of the viable GOP candidates calling for a quicker exit from Afghanistan? Why is Romney calling for increased military spending? Why did Romney want to continue the Iraq war beyond when the President ended it?
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Or bring back a republican and then all the fake anti-war leftists will come trapsing out against the war again. face it the anti-war movement is a fashion statment, while you may be the extreme, all your backup, seems to have vanished...... instead cheering for wars such as lybia.... Must really burn you to see that crap. eh?
 
Andalublue said:
Plenty of sane people have committed appalling acts.
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But not blowin' themselves up to harm civilians (who are strangers); that's definately nuts.
 
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ReverendHellh0und said:
Or bring back a republican and then all the fake anti-war leftists will come trapsing out against the war again. face it the anti-war movement is a fashion statment, while you may be the extreme, all your backup, seems to have vanished...... instead cheering for wars such as lybia.... Must really burn you to see that crap. eh?
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Its still the liberals protesting our optional middle east wars, not the conservatives.

IT'S TIME TO END THE AFGHANISTAN OCCUPATION
published by Aaron Hughes on 03/13/12 2:22pm
posted to: Field Organizers

"The reality on the ground is that the longer we stay in Afghanistan, the more damage we create … It’s time for us to get out. - Graham Clumpner, former Army Ranger who served in Afghanistan from 2005 to 2006.

Members of the Afghanistan Veterans Against the War committee of IVAW are speaking out about the recent massacre of at least 16 Afghan civilians by a U.S. Army staff sergeant in a Kandahar village. They see the incident as just the latest example of the U.S./NATO failed military strategy in Afghanistan and are calling on elected officials to stop funding the war, which now costs taxpayers between $1 and $2 billion per week.

Take action with Afghanistan Veterans Against the War and other veterans by:

Send a letter to the editor of your local paper condemning the massacre and calling for an end to our occupation in Afghanistan.

See if your member of Congress is a co-sponsor of H.R. 780 sponsored by Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA), which calls for an end to funding of our troops in Afghanistan except for the sole purposes of their withdrawal. If your rep has already co-sponsored, thank them. If not, urge them to co-sponsor using our easy online tool. This is the first step in getting this bill re-introduced in Congress."
It's time to end the Afghanistan occupation | Iraq Veterans Against the War

iraq_agnst_-veterans.jpg

http://www.commondreams.org/files/images/iraq_agnst_-veterans.jpg

SDS_NYC.jpg

April 9th, 2011 UNAC Anti-War Protest in NYC | Students for a Democratic Society





Where are the conservative protesters?
 
The correlation between TBI and PTSD is being studied. Having had someone, ex-military, I knew quite well with both was a life of internal torture for the man and rife with medical problems. At times he was unpredictable, unable to have close relationships for any extended time and was issued a medical dog to alert him before seizures would come.

The specifics of a link between TBI and subsequent violent behavior haven’t been entirely parsed out by scientists. And surely no one factor could possibly lead to the kind of rampage seen in Afghanistan on Sunday. But myriad studies have concluded that a connection between TBI and violence does seem to exist.

One report followed 850 young civilian adults over eight years, and found that those who’d suffered a TBI “reported more interpersonal violence” than their peers. Another, out of Sweden, tracked over 20,000 people for 35 years. That one, published earlier this year, noted that 9 percent of all TBI-afflicted study participants were implicated in a violent crime at some point after sustaining the injury. By comparison, only 3 percent of those without a brain injury ever committed a violent crime. The researchers concluded that TBI “significantly increased [the] risk” that an individual would behave violently.

A major 2009 study of Iraq war veterans suffering from TBIs published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that TBI sufferers experienced “significantly more” mental health problems in the years following their injury. In particular, the patients exhibited symptoms of PTSD, which can include depression and aggression, though the study doesn’t specify which PTSD symptoms were most severely exacerbated.
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DVBIC - Families & Friends
What Role Did Accused Soldier's Brain Injury Play in Afghan Massacre? (UPDATED) | Danger Room | Wired.com
MMS: Error
 
ecofarm said:
But not blowin' themselves up to harm civilians (who are strangers); that's definately nuts.
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The wanton killing of civilians is quite common, the IRA were doing it for several decades. Very few of them were certified insane. The concept of suicide missions is also quite common, and not always or even generally, the actions of the insane. Put the two together...
 
RDS said:
A soldier who methodically killed 16 people while they were at sleep in their homes, if he is not a terrorist then what is he?

John Kerry calls American troops terrorists - YouTube
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I hesitate to call him a terrorist. Terrorists have a political purpose... the act of killing or horrific things are meant to promote something political as well as to promote shock and fear. Killing is just a means to an end to accomplish that goal. This guy - I don't see anything that shows he killed these people for a political reason. He's a murderer... maybe psychotic murderer. But I don't see how the label of "terrorist" can be levied at this time.
 
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