• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

FDNY ordered to hire minorities

Aunt Spiker said:
Yeah: there's a huge host of other activities that would scream 'racist' and so on - but passing a test isn't one of them unless the whites were given the answers ahead of time.

You know - this approach to this issue I'm just not seeing.
Click to expand...

The helping the whites pass comment earlier I think is kind of close to giving the answers. But, no, a test can be fudged in a direction. It really isn't really the ahrd to do. The question is whether that is what happened or not. I would love to see the evidence.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
The only thing argued that could have been changed in the court's opinion was the order in which elements of the 'pass fail' system were presented.

Currently it's: Pass the written exam with an 84% FIRST - if you pass then proceed to the PPT, and so on.
Their suggestion: 'Don't do the written exam FIRST' . . . or 'lower the passing grade'

Why isn't the response from others more along the lines of 'apply yourself more so you can pass the test' - is this really racist to suggest? The ones who DID take it DID pass it and DID go on to qualify and ARE part of this so called 'racist' system of firefighters, now - they deserve recognition for their success. They've proven it's obtainable and passible. THEY, have no doubt, put in extra study time and learned what they didn't already know.

Bravo for their success.

This whole lawsuit and ruling diminishes their success which is such a tragic shame: the only time being better than the rest turns out to be a bad thing in life.

I just don't see it being the *fault* of the FDNY whether or not they come prepared to pass the written test.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I was just jazzed by the opportunity to those who told me in no uncertain terms that quotas are illegal and are therefore not in effect the berries. 'Cause I know for a fact that quotas are in effect and they are enforced. This is further evidence of that. :)
 
I agree: it's bull**** - this whole 'the % of people who apply and qualify but match the % of the population'

This goes back to an article I read about 'the Crack Alternative' - a study done on why Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in one area weren't succeeding in the new 'business world' - the people tried to say it was because of serious cultural differences that they couldn't (or wouldn't) get past. . . but sexism was glaringly obvious and so was the refusal to accept that to get a job you MUST comply with the necessary attitude and attire - be your own self on your own time. . . these stubborn qualities are why they didn't keep a job that was 'entry level' - not because the work environment was racist. Because those who did keep jobs that were 'entry level' were able to divide their 'work self' from their 'real self' and function just fine *at work* and succeed very well in their work-life and excel upward. Tehy weren't always on 'the bottom'

So until people who propose these arguments are willing to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that they - first - aren't their own problem then I'm just not going to flex very much on my view.

Race and gender are NO EXCUSE to suck in life.

They should be offended at the suggestion that they can sue their way into employment because they're a minority, truly . . . people tell me occasionally that some thing should be easier for me to get done because I'm a female and I get thoroughly offended and quite disgusted by the notion that my brains don't matter as much as everyone's elses.
 
Boo Radley said:
Agreed. But the question is how. It isn't like they or anyone would openly say we don't want a minority, or do anything too overt. They would just find away not to hire a minority. This is done rather often yet today. In private conversations I have been told by some who hire that the law be damned, no minority will work for them. So, without that admission, and as qualifications are really more subjective than most want to admit, how do you go about it?
Click to expand...

Forcing a race on a job that very directly is involved in life or death situations is just plain dumb. To answer your question, you implement a way to determine the best person for a job. When you hire based on race, or racial percentages you arent doing that. If a white guy and a black guy both apply for a job and the white guy is better for the job, then he should get it. Regardless of the percentage of blacks currently employed. That is irrelevant.
 
muciti said:
Forcing a race on a job that very directly is involved in life or death situations is just plain dumb. To answer your question, you implement a way to determine the best person for a job. When you hire based on race, or racial percentages you arent doing that. If a white guy and a black guy both apply for a job and the white guy is better for the job, then he should get it. Regardless of the percentage of blacks currently employed. That is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Race has anything to with not qualified as you can be denied the job and still be qualified, cmpletely qualified -- no risk at all in hiring them. In such fields (fire fighting, police, healthcare, education) a lot of misperceptions exist. Start with the fact that group think has led people to believe their is only one way to do something, only one standard. If all white males suddenly could be fire fighters tommorrow, women and maniorites woudl still find a way to fight fires. Particularly women, often seen as weaker, woudl simply find a different way to do it. Also, I doubt very seriously that minorities are simply not qualified. I would have to accept that they are in fact somehow less able to learn.

As for percentage, not really my concern. My concern is what evidence was there that showed the testing they were using was improper and the suugestion whites were helped. I withhold complete judgment until I see that. But I will say percentages can open the door for the question. It raises a flag that suggests we ask why? Now there may be a naswer. But, there may also be a reason show clear bias.
 
Last edited:
A black dude that has hope off of welfare? GOOD! A thug gang member in Emergency Serives? BAD!
If youre qualified..... HEY! you are qualified!
 
Harshaw said:
If you cannot pass that test, then you should not be a firefighter. The public safety is in the balance.
Click to expand...

Funny, they said the same in the South when trying to prevent voting by blacks.. Hello mr White Guy.. spell Cat.... Pass.. hello mr Black guy, spell supercalifragilisticexpialidocious... Fail, you too dumb to vote, hence voting right denied!
 
The Giant Noodle said:
A black dude that has hope off of welfare? GOOD! A thug gang member in Emergency Serives? BAD!
If youre qualified..... HEY! you are qualified!
Click to expand...
Oh, so any minority who can't pass the test is a "thug gang member"? Thanks for the clarification.
 
PeteEU said:
Funny, they said the same in the South when trying to prevent voting by blacks.. Hello mr White Guy.. spell Cat.... Pass.. hello mr Black guy, spell supercalifragilisticexpialidocious... Fail, you too dumb to vote, hence voting right denied!
Click to expand...
Is there any proof that minorities are forced to take a more difficult exam? Otherwise that comparison is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
 
Im still trying to figure out why the judge thinks blacks and latinos are too stupid to pass the test on their own merits.
 
A couple observations. First, the city has had this problem before. Second, The test, if the selected sample questions are representative of the exam, is easy enough that even I, with no prior firefighting training, could pass it.

So, if the city has responded to prior low minority pass rates by dumbing down the test in an attempt to get more minorities to pass, it seems they've dumbed it down so much that it may not have any bearing anymore on the job itself if a layperson can pass it.
 
Caine said:
Im still trying to figure out why the judge thinks blacks and latinos are too stupid to pass the test on their own merits.
Click to expand...

As that is not what he said, or even implied, you are being a little disingenuous.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No quota's my ass.
Click to expand...

They are illegal, unless ordered by a court to make up for clearly documented past wrongs. However, even then, the peole hired must be qualified.
 
Boo Radley said:
They are illegal, unless ordered by a court to make up for clearly documented past wrongs. However, even then, the peole hired must be qualified.
Click to expand...

And how are people suppose to know if they are qualified if the test that is given supposedly "has no bearing"? Even though from the sample questions given clearly show that they do have bearing? Take people at their word? Or perhaps we now need collage degree's and spend thousands of dollars to get that degree?

As for quota's being illegal...thats BS. They might SAY its illegal but reality shows that its perfectly acceptable to have so long as it isn't obvious. Also if quota's are illegal then it would be illegal for the courts to mandate a quota...they are not above the law.
 
Kal'Stang said:
And how are people suppose to know if they are qualified if the test that is given supposedly "has no bearing"? Even though from the sample questions given clearly show that they do have bearing? Take people at their word? Or perhaps we now need collage degree's and spend thousands of dollars to get that degree?

As for quota's being illegal...thats BS. They might SAY its illegal but reality shows that its perfectly acceptable to have so long as it isn't obvious. Also if quota's are illegal then it would be illegal for the courts to mandate a quota...they are not above the law.
Click to expand...

That may be aprt of the problem. But I wouldn't jump to any assumptions that they are not qualified.

And the reality is every case on quotas has been won by those suing. That is just the fact of the matter.

Your court comment is just silly.

(BTW, read the links provided earlier. The court did not order a quota. Just thought we should at least try to be accurate.)
 
Last edited:
Boo Radley said:
That may be aprt of the problem. But I wouldn't jump to any assumptions that they are not qualified.

And the reality is every case on quotas has been won by those suing. That is just the fact of the matter.

Your court comment is just silly.

(BTW, read the links provided earlier. The court did not order a quota. Just thought we should at least try to be accurate.)
Click to expand...

Here is the first paragraph, first link. That is not a quota?

A U.S. district judge ordered New York City to pay $128 million in to firefighters who allege the city used an entrance exam that deliberately sought to keep African-Americans and Latino Americans off the force. The judge also ordered the FDNY to hire 293 black and Latino applicants.
 
jimbo said:
Here is the first paragraph, first link. That is not a quota?

A U.S. district judge ordered New York City to pay $128 million in to firefighters who allege the city used an entrance exam that deliberately sought to keep African-Americans and Latino Americans off the force. The judge also ordered the FDNY to hire 293 black and Latino applicants.
Click to expand...


if it is a quota then tell us what the percentage is that the quota was established to be
 
justabubba said:
if it is a quota then tell us what the percentage is that the quota was established to be
Click to expand...

Wikipedia definition of a racial quota. I didn't bother to hunt any farther than the first paragraph of Wiki.

Racial quotas in employment and education are numerical requirements for hiring, promoting, admitting and/or graduating members of a particular racial group. Racial quotas are often established as means of diminishing racial discrimination, addressing under-representation and evident racism against those racial groups. Some individuals consider racial quotas reverse racism. Racial quotas are closely linked to notions of group rights, and special rights.

These quotas may be determined by governmental authority and backed by governmental sanctions. When the total number of jobs or enrollment slots is fixed, this proportion may get translated to a specific number. In education, this kind of quota is also known as Numerus clausus.
 
jimbo said:
Wikipedia definition of a racial quota. I didn't bother to hunt any farther than the first paragraph of Wiki.

Racial quotas in employment and education are numerical requirements for hiring, promoting, admitting and/or graduating members of a particular racial group. Racial quotas are often established as means of diminishing racial discrimination, addressing under-representation and evident racism against those racial groups. Some individuals consider racial quotas reverse racism. Racial quotas are closely linked to notions of group rights, and special rights.

These quotas may be determined by governmental authority and backed by governmental sanctions. When the total number of jobs or enrollment slots is fixed, this proportion may get translated to a specific number. In education, this kind of quota is also known as Numerus clausus.
Click to expand...

i gather from your reply and the absence of a quota percentage that you have no designated percentage which was established as the quota
and without such percentage then we can assume there is no quota
 
jimbo said:
Here is the first paragraph, first link. That is not a quota?

A U.S. district judge ordered New York City to pay $128 million in to firefighters who allege the city used an entrance exam that deliberately sought to keep African-Americans and Latino Americans off the force. The judge also ordered the FDNY to hire 293 black and Latino applicants.
Click to expand...

Nope. It's a number that they need right now. A quota system is where you always set aside x-number of seats.
 
justabubba said:
i gather from your reply and the absence of a quota percentage that you have no designated percentage which was established as the quota
and without such percentage then we can assume there is no quota
Click to expand...

No. What you should have gathered from my reply is that the absence of a percentage figure in no way negates the fact that an order or policy to hire a given number, or percentage, or just a random number picked out of a lottery machine is, in fact, a quota. For all I know, the judge did, in fact, do the math and determine that there needed to be a specific number of blacks and/or latinos, whatever that number is, to to equalize the NYFD policies. OTOH, for all I know, the judge utilized option B, which is picking a random number out of a lottery machine. Either way, it doesn't matter. Telling a group that they must hire a specific number whether that number is a percentage or a specific number, is a quota.
 
jimbo said:
No. What you should have gathered from my reply is that the absence of a percentage figure in no way negates the fact that an order or policy to hire a given number, or percentage, or just a random number picked out of a lottery machine is, in fact, a quota. For all I know, the judge did, in fact, do the math and determine that there needed to be a specific number of blacks and/or latinos, whatever that number is, to to equalize the NYFD policies. OTOH, for all I know, the judge utilized option B, which is picking a random number out of a lottery machine. Either way, it doesn't matter. Telling a group that they must hire a specific number whether that number is a percentage or a specific number, is a quota.
Click to expand...

A number, once. Not a system requiring a certain percentage. Nope. The judge did not order that. Sorry.
 
jimbo said:
No. What you should have gathered from my reply is that the absence of a percentage figure in no way negates the fact that an order or policy to hire a given number, or percentage, or just a random number picked out of a lottery machine is, in fact, a quota. For all I know, the judge did, in fact, do the math and determine that there needed to be a specific number of blacks and/or latinos, whatever that number is, to to equalize the NYFD policies. OTOH, for all I know, the judge utilized option B, which is picking a random number out of a lottery machine. Either way, it doesn't matter. Telling a group that they must hire a specific number whether that number is a percentage or a specific number, is a quota.
Click to expand...
gonna make this easy for you courtesy of dictionary.com
quo·ta   [kwoh-tuh]
noun
1.
the share or proportional part of a total that is required from, or is due or belongs to, a particular district, state, person, group, etc.
2.
a proportional part or share of a fixed total amount or quantity.
3.
the number or percentage of persons of a specified kind permitted to enroll in a college, join a club, immigrate to a country, etc.
Click to expand...
[emphasis added by bubba]
you have no percentage, no share, no proportional part, in short, NO quota
 
PeteEU said:
Funny, they said the same in the South when trying to prevent voting by blacks.. Hello mr White Guy.. spell Cat.... Pass.. hello mr Black guy, spell supercalifragilisticexpialidocious... Fail, you too dumb to vote, hence voting right denied!
Click to expand...

Please provide a legitimate link that this occurrence is happening on a widespread, consistent basis in the south now, as opposed to 30-40 years ago? Thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom